RE: Dual-clutch Clio RS: the defence
Discussion
crispyshark said:
...the only thing they are considering is numbers they can sell (which is fair enough if you were a manufacturer who wants to make profit).
It would probably be cost inefficient but why don't they follow BMW's lead like they did with the manual M5 (albiet only released in the US) and perhaps do a special run of the Clios with manual for the UK? I'm sure they would sell.
You've answered your own question there. Unless there's a RHD country that's getting a manual version of the car, it'll be prohibitively expensive to produce a limited UK run.It would probably be cost inefficient but why don't they follow BMW's lead like they did with the manual M5 (albiet only released in the US) and perhaps do a special run of the Clios with manual for the UK? I'm sure they would sell.
EDLT said:
Don't the Swift Sport and RS Clio both have drive by wire throttles? Driving purists told me that these are rubbish and nobody will be able to fix them if they go wrong. 
Drive by wire is fairly standard in motorsport these days, so I don't see a problem with a well designed modern system in that respect. Some of the earlier attempts might be a different matter, though, granted. As for what happens whey they go wrong ... providing the car is out of warranty, it makes no difference to the manufacturer. There are a few advantages, though. Electronic modules can be standardised across the range to save costs and you can do clever things by throttling the different cylinders independently.
As a massive Renaultsport fan I can't wait to try on of these as I hope it will be a great all round car.
Until the car is launched perhaps people should stop wasting there time slagging it off and if there actually in the market for one go and test drive one.......
Plus I'm sure the tuning companies out there will be able to remap the engine and probably the gearbox too to make it a bit more "hardcore" for all the "real" drivers on forums such as this.
Until the car is launched perhaps people should stop wasting there time slagging it off and if there actually in the market for one go and test drive one.......
Plus I'm sure the tuning companies out there will be able to remap the engine and probably the gearbox too to make it a bit more "hardcore" for all the "real" drivers on forums such as this.
DoctorX said:
A Scotsman said:
As the owner of a relatively low mileage Clio 182 which I absolutely adore it's not actually the flappy paddle gearbox that concerns me but that disgustingly ugly instrument panel!!
+1The exterior is pretty horrific, too.
Chris71 said:
True. In an ideal world maybe they could have dual clutch 'Clio STs' (Gordinis maybe) and leave the RS for the purists, but there are any number of reasons why that would be too expensive.
A bigger concern for me is the turbo. I know there are some brilliant turbo engines out there these days, but you really notice the extra fizz of a good naturally aspirated engine now they're in such short supply. Get into something like a Swift Sport or the outgoing RS Clio and there's an immediacy to the throttle response that you don't get in a Polo GTi or even the hallowed M135i.
I'd consider the turbo a non-issue. I had a Fiesta ST185 as my last car. Similar power output to the Clio, 2 litre engine, great noise - and yet I'd take my turbo charged Megane every time. Much better straight line pace, and no need to thrash it every time I'd like to overtake someone.A bigger concern for me is the turbo. I know there are some brilliant turbo engines out there these days, but you really notice the extra fizz of a good naturally aspirated engine now they're in such short supply. Get into something like a Swift Sport or the outgoing RS Clio and there's an immediacy to the throttle response that you don't get in a Polo GTi or even the hallowed M135i.
You get used to the throttle response. In fact, the Fiesta had worse "lag" when you weren't on cam than the Megane's turbo has ever had.
Edited by framerateuk on Monday 4th February 16:06
Chris71 said:
EDLT said:
Don't the Swift Sport and RS Clio both have drive by wire throttles? Driving purists told me that these are rubbish and nobody will be able to fix them if they go wrong.
Drive by wire is fairly standard in motorsport these days, so I don't see a problem with a well designed modern system in that respect. Some of the earlier attempts might be a different matter, though, granted. As for what happens whey they go wrong ... providing the car is out of warranty, it makes no difference to the manufacturer. There are a few advantages, though. Electronic modules can be standardised across the range to save costs and you can do clever things by throttling the different cylinders independently.
Gary C said:
Strange comment
"A manual option would make the car more expensive"
?
DCT cheaper than a simple 5/6 speed manual ? or is it economy of scale ?
Yes it must be economies of scale, as in by not allowing a manual they max out volume of the dual clutch box, which will lowers it's unit price. "A manual option would make the car more expensive"
?
DCT cheaper than a simple 5/6 speed manual ? or is it economy of scale ?
I just don't get the bit about VW DSG only policy being a factor in the decision. Surely, they'd have been better off offering a cheaper manual only car and max out manual box market share where VW simply gave up on the manual ?
Edited by nickfrog on Monday 4th February 16:01
radical78 said:
Clutches are expensive to make and add alot of weight. Tractors, diggers, lorries, buses and everything else got rid of them years ago, cars will too.
Sorted the spelling and punctuation out a bit for you.So a "twin clutch" setup removes the clutch how?
All the trucks at my work and at my previous job still all have regular clutches, even the brand new 62 plate vehicles.
I can't believe the toss this Renault bloke is spouting.
"We're going with dual clutch, it's quicker" - But then no one who wants the ultimate quickest car is going to spend £20k on a Clio when £20K would get you all sorts of much, much quicker cars. Anyone who wanted the ultimate in speed, for even half the price, would get a Skyline, an Evo or Supra, which would obliterate a Clio on road or track. So who cares at the end of the day, how outright fast the shift is, shouldn't a so-called "drivers" car in this segment (where performance compromises will always have to be made due to practicality, budget and packaging concerns) be optimised for satisfaction and not just "speed"? This is a big thing for Renault, whose Clio, 197 onwards especiall, was little cheaper than some of it's turbo competition like the Astra VXR, Cupra R etc, yet still sold well because it was fun to drive. Take away that rough, raw edge and you've got something too sensible and civilised to set it apart from the competition imo.
I doubt a focus group of people interested in a new RS Clio would have said they'd prefer a paddle shift, more likely that Renault wants to make the jump to paddles being a standard in all of it's cars and do away with manuals altogether. Might as well drop that bitter pill for the old RS fans now, while Renault is dying on it's arse, and hope to rebuild the brand with VW refugees looking for better value for money.
"We're going with dual clutch, it's quicker" - But then no one who wants the ultimate quickest car is going to spend £20k on a Clio when £20K would get you all sorts of much, much quicker cars. Anyone who wanted the ultimate in speed, for even half the price, would get a Skyline, an Evo or Supra, which would obliterate a Clio on road or track. So who cares at the end of the day, how outright fast the shift is, shouldn't a so-called "drivers" car in this segment (where performance compromises will always have to be made due to practicality, budget and packaging concerns) be optimised for satisfaction and not just "speed"? This is a big thing for Renault, whose Clio, 197 onwards especiall, was little cheaper than some of it's turbo competition like the Astra VXR, Cupra R etc, yet still sold well because it was fun to drive. Take away that rough, raw edge and you've got something too sensible and civilised to set it apart from the competition imo.
I doubt a focus group of people interested in a new RS Clio would have said they'd prefer a paddle shift, more likely that Renault wants to make the jump to paddles being a standard in all of it's cars and do away with manuals altogether. Might as well drop that bitter pill for the old RS fans now, while Renault is dying on it's arse, and hope to rebuild the brand with VW refugees looking for better value for money.
EDLT said:
Only mechanics that don't know what they are doing will not be able to fix a DSG, luckily there are training courses which are used by most reputable garages..
But it is added complexity, and worse you will definitively need documentation and an up-to-date factory diagnostics system. Beyond the scope of but the most dedicated indy garages for the time being I'd guess.As for the factory dealers -- if the problem falls outside the scope of the trouble shooting script the parts swappers (can't call then mechanics) follow, then good luck. Twin charged DSG VAG car with lots of options = nightmare once out of warranty.
Meanwhile, manufacturers are happy because it helps them sell new stuff. They are really happy because the s
t will tend to go uneconomical to repair much sooner. And the Eurocrats are happy because their scheme is "working", all for the good of the environment.eliotrw said:
Agreed,
But the Clio isnt in competion with the astra or leon
Its in competition with the Corsa and Ibiza segment.
They make a megane for the astra to compete against.
But at the end of the day, with the prices that Astras were leaving dealerships for, the Clio was not far behind. The Astra was bigger, more powerful and the VXR brand, dare I say, has more pub-cachet than the RS brand. Therefore, there had to be some reason to pick the Clio - and it wasn't because of speed. In much the same way I had a sub £5000 Cupra R 225 making 270bhp, which was bloody quick for a FWD car, but not that involving, I swapped it for an EP3, which is not nearly as quick but so, so much more fun to drive.But the Clio isnt in competion with the astra or leon
Its in competition with the Corsa and Ibiza segment.
They make a megane for the astra to compete against.
One of my friends has an Astra VXR, another has an RS 197. The Astra is in another league in terms of pace - the turbo torque and another 40bhp means it pretty much fecks off down the road if and when it wants to, but it's not that dramatic, it's a typical turbo hatch - laggy throttle, not much exhaust or intake volume, not a brilliant sound etc. The Clio on the other hand, is a riot. You're blipping at the throttle, snapping back and forth through the gears, it's got a decent tone to it and while it's not that fast in the grand scheme of things, you have to really work with the car to get the best from it.
Chasing VW customers with a paddle shift has brought about a funeral for one of the best hot hatches of the last 10 years imo.
Very true.Mastodon2 said:
"We're going with dual clutch, it's quicker" - But then no one who wants the ultimate quickest car is going to spend £20k on a Clio when £20K would get you all sorts of much, much quicker cars. Anyone who wanted the ultimate in speed, for even half the price, would get a Skyline, an Evo or Supra, which would obliterate a Clio on road or track.
Yay, and now we're into the idiotic argument of comparing old secondhand car prices with new.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff