RE: Tesla launches 691hp Model S P85D
Discussion
FreiWild said:
The whole powertrain seems to be incredibly warmth-sensitive as after only one 0-100 km/h run the Model S got so warm that it's next 0-100 run was 2 seconds slower.
So, if you spend you time doing 0-60 runs one after the other, you should buy something different!I would suggest this:
For the rest of us, driving in the real world, i think the Powertrain performance will be just fine ;-)
It's good to see some something different but I really do think that Tesla are onto a loser long term with a pure electric vehicle. Although reasonably successful now I believe it's an evolutionary dead end with fuel cell cars and range extended hybrids likely to outperform in virtually all areas in the not too distant future. I think this is why the traditional manufacturers are not investing significantly in pure EV tech. I know several people who left the industry in the UK who now work for Tesla, they keep an open mind but I think the attraction for them is as much the life in California as any particular belief in a new technology.
I also think that Tesla have a distorted view of how successful they can be from selling to the US market where conditions are very different to Europe and the rest of the world. It's true that there are serious and valid concerns over the robustness of the UK power grid to support a greater uptake of electric vehicle charging, also most people in the UK do not have access to off-street parking which must pose a serious barrier to ownership. This is especially true in the areas where electric cars make the most sense i.e. cities. The cost of a battery pack change also needs to be seriously considered, the 'zero-maintenance' aspect of an EV is hyped but then you need a $10,000 battery pack change every few years? I'm not sure the consumer will be ready to swallow this and I'd be interested to see what future residuals are like on leggy Teslas.
Ultimately it's a personal choice and I'm sure a Tesla will make sense for a lot of people but I'll be driving a RWD multi-cylinder ICE vehicle for as long as I can (probably until they are banned, in which case I'll be in prison for excessive pollution, noise and whatever else...)
I also think that Tesla have a distorted view of how successful they can be from selling to the US market where conditions are very different to Europe and the rest of the world. It's true that there are serious and valid concerns over the robustness of the UK power grid to support a greater uptake of electric vehicle charging, also most people in the UK do not have access to off-street parking which must pose a serious barrier to ownership. This is especially true in the areas where electric cars make the most sense i.e. cities. The cost of a battery pack change also needs to be seriously considered, the 'zero-maintenance' aspect of an EV is hyped but then you need a $10,000 battery pack change every few years? I'm not sure the consumer will be ready to swallow this and I'd be interested to see what future residuals are like on leggy Teslas.
Ultimately it's a personal choice and I'm sure a Tesla will make sense for a lot of people but I'll be driving a RWD multi-cylinder ICE vehicle for as long as I can (probably until they are banned, in which case I'll be in prison for excessive pollution, noise and whatever else...)
Al 450 said:
It's good to see some something different but I really do think that Tesla are onto a loser long term with a pure electric vehicle. Although reasonably successful now I believe it's an evolutionary dead end with fuel cell cars
What advantage does a fuel cell have over an EV?McWigglebum4th said:
What advantage does a fuel cell have over an EV?
Faster refuelling. Takes no more time to fill up than a conventional vehicle. Issue at the moment though is the same as EVs - not enough refuellers. However, inevitable that the convenience of the fuel cell will drive battery based vehicles out of the market for all but perhaps short distance work. Al 450 said:
It's good to see some something different but I really do think that Tesla are onto a loser long term with a pure electric vehicle. Although reasonably successful now I believe it's an evolutionary dead end with fuel cell cars and range extended hybrids likely to outperform in virtually all areas in the not too distant future.
Lets say you are right (tbh, i don't think it's going to be as clear cut as that, with any single technology being the "one") then Tesla will still have a massive advantage! Lets face it, where the electricity comes from is fairly small beans. They just take out their large battery pack and replace it with a fuel cell and hydrogen tank. The rest of the car still works perfectly. Now try that with your multicylinder ICE..........(although you can of course burn hydrogen in an ICE ;-)
A Scotsman said:
McWigglebum4th said:
What advantage does a fuel cell have over an EV?
Faster refuelling. Takes no more time to fill up than a conventional vehicle. Issue at the moment though is the same as EVs - not enough refuellers. However, inevitable that the convenience of the fuel cell will drive battery based vehicles out of the market for all but perhaps short distance work. Give it a few years until the technology matures, and perhaps with some beaurocratic meddling (which generally I'm against) and these things should be able to be built with a standard battery pack. Once that happens then all you need are battery stations where you drive up to a carwash style rail, a machine swaps your battery for a freshly charged one, measures the charge you have left in the old one, you pay the difference, and drive off whist the machine sticks your old battery on charge for the next customer.
A few more nuclear power stations along the Somerset coast and we're sorted
dvs_dave said:
FFS, not you again? You and your mate Rover45 or whatever he's called need to do one and get back to trolling youtube.
I have nothing to do with the gentleman to whom you refer. I go by the handle of RoverP6B because I had one and it was arguably the best car Rover ever made - when Rover were halfway between BMW and Bentley in prestige and quality. NOT some dreadful tinny rebadged Honda abomination.98elise said:
Can you just clarify if drilling for oil is green? Oil production and environmental disaster go hand in hand. Have you forgotten the recent BP incident?
Do you have any evidence that EV batteries only last 5-10 years? Actual evidence is that they are very reliable (EV's and Hybrid traction batteried have been around for well over a decade now) and in the small number that need repairs, they can be refurbed (ie indivicual cells or blades can be replaced.
As has been pointed out at the end of their life they are very much recyclable anyway.
I am well aware that oil-drilling can present problems, but equally, most of the world's oilfields, sea and land, operate quietly with no fuss or problems. There are also alternative fuel sources for internal combustion engines, from biodiesel and bioethanol (particularly those not derived directly from what could otherwise be food crops), methane from waste digestors, compressed natural gas and so on. There are even ongoing projects to capture carbon from power stations and even from the atmosphere and turn it back into some form of usable fuel, with many different approaches being investigated. Nissan said the Leaf's battery pack would require complete replacement at 5 or 6 years...Do you have any evidence that EV batteries only last 5-10 years? Actual evidence is that they are very reliable (EV's and Hybrid traction batteried have been around for well over a decade now) and in the small number that need repairs, they can be refurbed (ie indivicual cells or blades can be replaced.
As has been pointed out at the end of their life they are very much recyclable anyway.
SpeckledJim said:
Perhaps your right foot isn't as 'finely nuanced' as your interest in cars then? Are you really complaining that it is too fast? It is 4-wheel drive with torque vectoring - the traction will be incredible. Better than just about any car that has ever existed. Please explain why 'incredibly fast' is too much, but 'incredible traction' is not enough?
Yes, I am complaining that it is too fast, like most performance cars these days. We're wowed by the big HP and torque numbers but completely overlook the Range Rover-like weight. You try and put down nigh 700ftlb without any wheelspin, particularly in the wet. Even with ESP on, it will be a constant battle for the systems to keep the wheels in check. Now, admittedly this thing doesn't have Veyron-level torque, but considering how easily that will turn £20,000 worth of tyres to smoke in seconds, I wouldn't have thought this Tesla thing would be massively better. You know what would impress me? If Tesla came out with a simple RWD version weighing 800kg less than this lardy, hideous abomination, with literally half the power and torque.Personally, I also hate the touchscreen-based controls. Why are we so obsessed with glass screens now? I have never had a problem navigating a dash festooned with dozens of buttons. I have had and do have problems with smartphones, iDrive and similar.
As for the long-term viability of this as an enterprise - does anyone remember the Fisker Karma? Billed and hailed as The Next Big Thing and also supposedly beautiful (didn't see it myself), it lasted mere months before Fisker went bust. Now Bob Lutz is having the last laugh by ripping out the 4-banger range extenders and the electric gubbins and sticking LS V8s into them instead...
bodhi said:
Beyond Rational said:
I can't fill my car with hydrogen when it's parked on the drive.
And not everyone can fill there car with electricity on their drive as not everyone has one - I'd need about a 100m extension cable to make that happen. RoverP6B said:
As for the long-term viability of this as an enterprise - does anyone remember the Fisker Karma? Billed and hailed as The Next Big Thing and also supposedly beautiful (didn't see it myself), it lasted mere months before Fisker went bust. Now Bob Lutz is having the last laugh by ripping out the 4-banger range extenders and the electric gubbins and sticking LS V8s into them instead...
I can confirm that they are indeed fabulous looking things and much better looking than the Tesla. I've also driven one although was underwhelmed by the experience. Despite 400hp it felt slow and the gruff range extender kicking in all the time spoiled the experience. It also makes the Tesla look like a Caterham weight wise.Having since driven a P85, other than looks, it was immeasurably better than the Fisker in every way. I got back into my A8 afterward and thought just thought how old fashioned it suddenly seemed and how much the Tesla has changed the game.
PunterCam said:
Not exactly rocket science, but impressive numbers... Especially the Range Rover rivalling weight.
I do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
Oh, and I have to keep taking exception with "...that weight is perfectly distributed 50/50 front/rear."
Can we not just say "distributed 50/50"? I'm sure you could describe the ratio as perfect (if you must), but that's not what's implied. 50:50 as a balance is not "perfect".
They have to release the expensive range topper first to establish themselves as a 'premium' brand, then they can charge 40-50k for a small car and people will buy it, wouldn't work the other way aroundI do think Tesla are missing a trick with these irreverent machines though. Or perhaps I mean, why isn't there another company (a European equivalent I suppose) who are designing and developing something useful for UK/European city roads? 300 mile range, Polo gti performance, half hour charge, and most importantly, desirable? Who the hell wants a saloon? It's the most carpet salesmen of all car formats.
Oh, and I have to keep taking exception with "...that weight is perfectly distributed 50/50 front/rear."
Can we not just say "distributed 50/50"? I'm sure you could describe the ratio as perfect (if you must), but that's not what's implied. 50:50 as a balance is not "perfect".
Beware the good old electric car "torque" numbers with no mention of where that torque is measure and how many gears the car has to leverage that torque....
(ie 700lbft at the driving wheels is easy, 700lbft at the crank, followed by a 3:1 1st gear and a 3:1 final drive ratio is a whole other kettle of fish)
You need to have you electric machine behind a multispeed gearbox, just like you do with an ICE, to really be able to leverage the full performance possible!
(ie 700lbft at the driving wheels is easy, 700lbft at the crank, followed by a 3:1 1st gear and a 3:1 final drive ratio is a whole other kettle of fish)
You need to have you electric machine behind a multispeed gearbox, just like you do with an ICE, to really be able to leverage the full performance possible!
kambites said:
You're not the target market then. Nobody has ever claimed that every car in the UK will be replaced with pure EVs. About half of the UK population live in a dwelling which has private parking.
We have private parking too, it's just not right in front of the house. If that means we're not in the target market for an EV that's absolutely fine by us :-)flatso said:
I honestly think that the german auto industry has been caught on the wrong foot with few tricks up their sleeves, most manufacturers having plug-in hybrids planned for release only in the next 3-4 years.
Daimler owns 0.14% of Tesla.They also co-manufacture an electric car called the Denza in China.
Edited by NXXN on Saturday 11th October 17:23
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