RE: Subaru BRZ v Toyota GT86: Delivery Miles
Discussion
sandman77 said:
So in summary the GT86 is:
Too slow
Has a cheap interior
Costs too much to lease
Has useless back seats
Doesn't have the correct badge to impress the neighbours
Is not as good as a 6 year old Porsche
Seems obvious now.
I still want one though.
Nobody bother buying one they are totally sToo slow
Has a cheap interior
Costs too much to lease
Has useless back seats
Doesn't have the correct badge to impress the neighbours
Is not as good as a 6 year old Porsche
Seems obvious now.
I still want one though.
t to own, slow.. Can't go round corners at all in a controlled drift.. Not as good as a ten year old boxter... Or a Clio Rattle like my mothers teeth.. And Won't last as long as Diana Ross
All in all buy an mx5
Fire99 said:
Personally, I'd say the issue with the GT86 is that the people it appeals to are probably mostly found on this forum. They'll look beyond headline figures and a not particularly plush interior etc and buy the car purely cause it's fun and 'involving'
Sadly once you take these 'people' and then pick how many actually dip their hands in their pockets to buy the car, that's not a whole lot of people.
Sadly once you take these 'people' and then pick how many actually dip their hands in their pockets to buy the car, that's not a whole lot of people.
I agree, but even on PH, that group is tiny. Maybe we could do a poll, but I reckon the percentage of people on here who prioritise handling over power, multi-cylinder sonorous engines, image, rarity or badge, is vanishingly small. I do, and I'm constantly fighting my corner with people trying to tell me that the cars I like are crap, or even tht I'm totally deluded. I reckon we're looking at 5-10% of PH liking cars in that manner, perhaps even less.When these were announced it was firmly on my "when I graduate" list of cars to buy and would suit perfectly as (I hoped) they would be down to ~10k by the end of 2016, doesn't look like that's gonna happen now.
The problem is that when you drive something faster with a huge kick of torque from a turbo, this won't feel particularly fast or thrilling. The whole culture these days of "oh my god look at that audi/bmw" is ruining the market for cars like these.
My dad has a Mk2 TT, it's genuinely more boring than the S-type he drove before that, but (and it's a big but) it has 4 rings on the bonnet so people want it more.
He joked when picking up the TT and asked what "that thing" was remarking that a BRZ looked great "but would it do 55mpg"...
Most will look at this as a weekend car which might do 5k/year, as you can see from the mileages on used models, and at that kind of mileage warranty, reliability etc doesn't become much of a problem. Buying an Elise, M3 etc becomes much more appealing. Or an MX5 and saving yourself 15k.
The problem is that when you drive something faster with a huge kick of torque from a turbo, this won't feel particularly fast or thrilling. The whole culture these days of "oh my god look at that audi/bmw" is ruining the market for cars like these.
My dad has a Mk2 TT, it's genuinely more boring than the S-type he drove before that, but (and it's a big but) it has 4 rings on the bonnet so people want it more.
He joked when picking up the TT and asked what "that thing" was remarking that a BRZ looked great "but would it do 55mpg"...
Most will look at this as a weekend car which might do 5k/year, as you can see from the mileages on used models, and at that kind of mileage warranty, reliability etc doesn't become much of a problem. Buying an Elise, M3 etc becomes much more appealing. Or an MX5 and saving yourself 15k.
I was in the market for one, and ended up with a used Cayman instead.
Taking into account the tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel economy, maintenance and repair costs, ... unless the engine of the Porsche blows up it should be cheaper to run than a GT86.
Seemed worth taking the risk.
An Elise would have been cheaper still, but I'm too tall for one of those.
I could be tempted by a used GT86 in a few years though, but that doesn't do Toyota much good.
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
Taking into account the tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel economy, maintenance and repair costs, ... unless the engine of the Porsche blows up it should be cheaper to run than a GT86.
Seemed worth taking the risk.
An Elise would have been cheaper still, but I'm too tall for one of those.
I could be tempted by a used GT86 in a few years though, but that doesn't do Toyota much good.
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
McFarnsworth said:
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
That's the problem.The GT86 seems to appeal to people who wouldn't want to buy it new.
The GT86/BRZ could've taken a page from Honda's Type R series specifically (DC2/EK9) from over a decade ago and reformulated it for today.
The JDM Integra and JDM Civic Type R's were spartan (which made them relatively light), had a bullet-proof high-revving engine and gearbox. It also had a couple of superb interior performance accents like Recaro Seats and Momo Steering wheel. Overall the car had a very respectable power to weight ratio for its time. But to be fair they were the "extreme" version of already sportive models.
The JDM Integra and JDM Civic Type R's were spartan (which made them relatively light), had a bullet-proof high-revving engine and gearbox. It also had a couple of superb interior performance accents like Recaro Seats and Momo Steering wheel. Overall the car had a very respectable power to weight ratio for its time. But to be fair they were the "extreme" version of already sportive models.
chrispmartha said:
kambites said:
It is an interesting point though. If Toyota released a 300bhp version with a better interior for £30k (I think that's about what a Golf R costs?), would anyone buy it?
Maybe if it was on a £250 per month leaseEdited by kambites on Thursday 26th February 10:19
So that works out as £18800 LEASE for the Golf R for 4 years ownership.
Given that a new BRZ is currently around £20k to buy, this is not even close to a fair comparison.
Its like comparing the Golf R to an M3 !!!
Twin2 said:
When these were announced it was firmly on my "when I graduate" list of cars to buy and would suit perfectly as (I hoped) they would be down to ~10k by the end of 2016, doesn't look like that's gonna happen now.
There you go, people were all hoping someone else would buy it new and sell it for half the price within a couple of years.Having had a quick browse of Autotrader one thing that does strike me as a bit odd is that there are hardly any GT86/BRZ that have done over 20k in 2-3 years and there seem to be a surprising number of 2 year old cars with barely 5-10k on them - are these the first of the leased cars coming onto the open market or did people buy them new and get bored very quickly?
McFarnsworth said:
Somehow Toyota ended up with a target audience that knows very well what else is out there and will do the numbers before buying. And a new car rarely wins against a used one in that regard.
Sadly for Toyota and Subaru, that is exactly the case: As a one time AE86 owner and later, a Legacy turbo, I am positively disposed toward both brands. I saw it, thought to myself how well one would suit me (if I didn't need a diesel as a daily driver), in a few years when there are used ones about, and then thought how a Honda S2000 would do a very similar job so bought a used one of those for the weekends.I could buy one but I guess I am not the new car buyer type.
Thanks, I'd forgotten about that. Reading it again now brings it all back. 
British Beef said:
Where do you get £250 (including VAT) lease deal from for a Gold R? I can find 48 month deal for £350 PM inc. VAT plus initial £2k payment!
So that works out as £18800 LEASE for the Golf R for 4 years ownership.
Given that a new BRZ is currently around £20k to buy, this is not even close to a fair comparison.
Its like comparing the Golf R to an M3 !!!
TBH Ive not checked for a while but they were doing deals that cheap a while back, it was well documented.So that works out as £18800 LEASE for the Golf R for 4 years ownership.
Given that a new BRZ is currently around £20k to buy, this is not even close to a fair comparison.
Its like comparing the Golf R to an M3 !!!
I found this but its a 24 month lease 48 month lease deals always seem expensive I find and I think 4 years is too long to lease
https://www.contracthireandleasing.com/car-leasing...
For reference this is the best idea I could find on a GT86.
https://www.contracthireandleasing.com/car-leasing...
thats a big difference considering the purchase price of both cars
£8100 for the golf V £12000 for the GT86 - you'd be bonkers to lease the toyota
https://www.contracthireandleasing.com/car-leasing...
thats a big difference considering the purchase price of both cars
£8100 for the golf V £12000 for the GT86 - you'd be bonkers to lease the toyota
Edited by chrispmartha on Thursday 26th February 13:12
cptsideways said:
Yes very much so, a complete flop compared to the numbers they were hoping for. Speak to any Toyota dealer off the record & they will agree.
US & Canada Sales are double (almost triple) of the MX-5
Scion FRS
2012 11,417 1470
2013 18,327 1825
2014 14,062 1559
MX5 Miata
2012 6305 711
2013 5780 554
2014 4745 511
Cant find UK sales figures at hand anyone know of a source?
Howmanyleft suggest they sold about 1000 Gt-86s and BR-Zs last year. For the Mx-5 it's hard to tell with every trim and special edition registered on there. Call it about 2000 last year. I think the car would have sold better if the price had been the same as the 2.0 convertible Mx-5 from launch, with a similar specification.US & Canada Sales are double (almost triple) of the MX-5
Scion FRS
2012 11,417 1470
2013 18,327 1825
2014 14,062 1559
MX5 Miata
2012 6305 711
2013 5780 554
2014 4745 511
Cant find UK sales figures at hand anyone know of a source?
They're still desirable, and the price cut is a step in the right direction, but a real update is needed. Manufacturers know that wheels, lights, great design and interior touch-points make a car feel special. The GT-86/BR-Z doesn't feel or look special now, and it's going to look very dated compared to the new Mx-5.
Thanks PH for teaching me the word 'Ingrates'.
Edited by iloveboost on Thursday 26th February 13:11
British Beef said:
chrispmartha said:
kambites said:
It is an interesting point though. If Toyota released a 300bhp version with a better interior for £30k (I think that's about what a Golf R costs?), would anyone buy it?
Maybe if it was on a £250 per month leaseEdited by kambites on Thursday 26th February 10:19
So that works out as £18800 LEASE for the Golf R for 4 years ownership.
Given that a new BRZ is currently around £20k to buy, this is not even close to a fair comparison.
Its like comparing the Golf R to an M3 !!!
Sadly, all the good deals are probably past - but then, this discussion is whay they HAVE NOT sold (looking back).
They were a lot cheaper just over a year ago and a lot were sold occassionally a cheap-ish deal still comes up.
http://www.gateway2lease.com/z_volkswagen_golf_2.0...
6+23 at £283.00 including vat is: £8207.00. Nowhere near M3 money.
The M135 was even cheaper, when it first cae out.
The Crack Fox said:
The styling is nasty. It looks like it's aimed at the 2nd or 3rd owner down the line, kids who want a cheap and fun Jap car to modify. These kids can't afford to buy them new, though. In Japan the modifying scene exists amongst older buyers, those rich enough to be able to afford to buy new, this doesn't really happen in Europe, modifying is for younger drivers. Perhaps they should offer free insurance, to attract younger buyers, like Citroen did with the VTR and VTS way back.
I tried one, it was great fun to drive, but the styling looked cheap and the interior was a bit naff. I didn't mind the modest amount of power but the engine sounds exactly like a fish tank pump. I'm too old to be modifying a car to meet my needs. The MK3 MX-5 does everything better, plus is a cabrio. Thanks for trying, though Toyota.
Styling is nasty?! - I can only assume from your username that you have a taste for the crack pipe which has warped your visionI tried one, it was great fun to drive, but the styling looked cheap and the interior was a bit naff. I didn't mind the modest amount of power but the engine sounds exactly like a fish tank pump. I'm too old to be modifying a car to meet my needs. The MK3 MX-5 does everything better, plus is a cabrio. Thanks for trying, though Toyota.
What cars in your history do you honestly think look better?
Edited by underphil on Thursday 26th February 14:24
Edited by underphil on Thursday 26th February 14:25
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