RE: New TVR - the car

[Sway]

Well said.

It's not the hairy chest, Tarzan brigade trying to show off their cohones. It's guys who love a feeling of connection, and involvement in the process of making progress that TVRs (along with quite a few others, a couple still in business in today's far more challenging world).

There's even a guy on the TG thread moaning about Extra Gear's comments that putting a diesel into a Bentley is doing the car a disservice...

The missus' car can have all the modern accoutrements, including ste visibility due to huge a pillars, poor steering feel and soggy brake pedal - because for her it's merely a tool to move the family about in comfort and safety. Luckily she does hardly any miles, so petrol is an easy sell.

A sports car, or 'fun' car, should be about rewarding the driver for paying attention, not adding layers in to further dissociate what's happening between controls and wheels.

[dvs_dave]

DonkeyApple said:

Lost is fine. Just means you get to drive around for longer. But I'd say there's no real need for an additional satnav in today's world when almost everyone has a smart phone.

Don't think you need a cup holder in order to be able to rehydrate.

I'd advocate that aircon is essential.

Decent Aircon/climate control
Reasonable sound system with apple CarPlay/AndroidAuto and Bluetooth integration
Cruise Control
Manually adjustable leather seats
Electric windows and mirrors
Auto headlights and rain sensing wipers.
Front and rear parking sensors with RVC.
TPMS
Job jobbed.

All off the shelf and easily implemented, all highly convenient, nothing particularly heavy or expensive yet all suitably "luxurious" features for a premium car. Anyone who says aircon isn't a requirement is smoking crack, or drives a steam engine as a daily.

[kambites]

dvs_dave said:

kambites said:

dvs_dave said:

And it's not illegal to not have ABS, or switchable ABS for any low volume type approval, as borne out by the many non abs equipped low volume cars available today. Therefore no issues with insurance, just as current non ABS TVRs are no issue. Mass market type approvals though are different in this respect.

I might be wrong but I think both ABS and Stability Control are required for ECSSTA these days?

Looking at the specifics of the ECSSTA regs:

• ABS is only mandatory on M2 (>8 seats, <5,000kg) and above vehicles
• ESP is only mandatory on M3 (>8 seats, > 5,000kg) and above vehicles
• A car falls under the M1 category (<8 seats, <5,000kg)

ECSSTA regs overview
Definition of Vehicle Categories

So under the ECSSTA low volume rules TVR (or any low volume manufacturer) are not obliged to install ESP or ABS. Although market forces these days dictate that they need to, however as it's not mandatory, no issues with making is fully switchable.

Cheers.

[kambites]

dvs_dave said:

Manually adjustable leather seats

I couldn't care less about the others (although I agree that air conditioning is probably a must, at least as an option) but I really hope there's a cloth option for the seats (at least the flat bits). I hate leather in sports cars, it's too slippery.

I'd also like to see an adjustable pedal box but I'm probably in a minority there.

Edited by kambites on Monday 6th June 20:58

[unrepentant]

Sway said:

Well said.

It's not the hairy chest, Tarzan brigade trying to show off their cohones. It's guys who love a feeling of connection, and involvement in the process of making progress that TVRs (along with quite a few others, a couple still in business in today's far more challenging world).

There's even a guy on the TG thread moaning about Extra Gear's comments that putting a diesel into a Bentley is doing the car a disservice...

The missus' car can have all the modern accoutrements, including ste visibility due to huge a pillars, poor steering feel and soggy brake pedal - because for her it's merely a tool to move the family about in comfort and safety. Luckily she does hardly any miles, so petrol is an easy sell.

A sports car, or 'fun' car, should be about rewarding the driver for paying attention, not adding layers in to further dissociate what's happening between controls and wheels.

Yes, but are you ready to stroke a check for 80 grand for one? Because unless enough people are it's all hypothetical.

[Ozzie Osmond]

unrepentant said:

Yes, but are you ready to stroke a check for 80 grand for one? Because unless enough people are it's all hypothetical.

That's the bottom line. No point having a handful of people clamouring for the first few cars if that's all they ever sell....

[unrepentant]

Ozzie Osmond said:

unrepentant said:

Yes, but are you ready to stroke a check for 80 grand for one? Because unless enough people are it's all hypothetical.

That's the bottom line. No point having a handful of people clamouring for the first few cars if that's all they ever sell....

Yep, TVR died mainly because they couldn't find enough people to pay 40 and 50k for a new car. Now that figure is likely 80-100k. Back in 05 there really wasn't much of an alternative to a Tuscan, Saggy or Tamora either for the price. In the intervening 10 years everything has changed in the market and expectations are way higher. 500HP is now commonplace and there are plenty of main stream manufacturers making fast, affordable and fun cars with 4 year warranty's and major manufacturer back up for sensible money.

[DonkeyApple]

unrepentant said:

DonkeyApple said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

fatbutt said:

I bloody hope not. Can we start up a list of all the things we DON'T want to see in the new TVR?

1) No cup holders
2) No sat nav
3) [Air conditioning]
4 .....

Sounds like the owners will be hot, lost and thirsty!

Lost is fine. Just means you get to drive around for longer. But I'd say there's no real need for an additional satnav in today's world when almost everyone has a smart phone.

Don't think you need a cup holder in order to be able to rehydrate.

I'd advocate that aircon is essential.

I had Satnav in my Sagaris. Got me from North Yorkshire to Le Mans with no problem. Very handy.

I had no aircon in my first Tuscan, huge mistake. Learnt my lesson when I built the Tuscan 2. In the Sag it would have been unbearable without it. No cup holders.

When I moved to the US and bought a 280i it had an aftermarket cup holder.

My F-Type has cup holders, satnav, climate control, safety equipment, heated seats and steering wheel, a G force meter (eh?) and a Meridian audio system that integrates with every conceivable device. It still makes a great noise and goes like stink. Personally I think that's the way of the world now and nobody bar a few enthusiasts will pay 80 grand plus for a car with no frills.

Yup. If you want volume then you've got to fit a car with all the stuff you'll find in an upmarket minicab or SUV etc. I think the hope is that they don't want that kind of mass market volume and can build a sustainable business on the type of demand that exists for less completely practical cars.

[unrepentant]

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. If you want volume then you've got to fit a car with all the stuff you'll find in an upmarket minicab or SUV etc. I think the hope is that they don't want that kind of mass market volume and can build a sustainable business on the type of demand that exists for less completely practical cars.

How much demand do you think is there? Given that they struggled to sell enough at 1/2 the price 10 years ago when there was no competition? From the way they've been talking they want to make 500 cars a year? You think there are enough enthusiasts in the UK who are prepared to forego luxury AND cough up 80 grand plus to sustain that? Why did Weismann fail? Marcos? Jensen? TVR! If they want to make a few cars a year for enthusiasts and do a bit of racing then I can see it but I can't see why a full on commercial venture would succeed when history and the market say otherwise.

[swisstoni]

Any yet Morgan plonk along ...

[m3jappa]

Here's what I'd like in terms of interior etc

Minimal sound deadening, I want to feel car vibrating (ermm) I want it to resonate at high revs. (Resonate not rattle!)

I would like a basic but reasonable sound system with dab and iPhone connectivity, I would happily stomach 30kgs for this

I would like cup holders because I like a coffee in the morning or if I'm doing a long drive from a to b

Fixed back buckets which are hard to get in and out of, trimmed beautifully, the seats could be relatively cheap cobras or similar but must be trimmed well, this would add to sense of occasion. Trimmed well could make them look stunning. Perhaps optional harnesses?

Ali or carbon and alcantara

Decent air con. My Tuscan has air con but it's basically st, driving down to Italy in the heat was tbh torture and not funny at all.

Well fitted and finished. Not that hard tbh. No loose flappy bits of carpet and no cheap carpet, please spend the extra fiver a meter and put something half decent (but light) in.

[unrepentant]

swisstoni said:

Any yet Morgan plonk along ...

Totally different. Morgan has been in business continuously for 107 years selling pretty much the same product and evolutions thereof to a very loyal customer base. They still make the car in the same factory in Malvern with a skilled workforce, many of whom have undoubtedly been there for decades. They have great continuity and heritage. TVR has none of that. The current owners bought a name and will put that name on a car that bears little in common with what went before, not even the location.

[essexstu]

Byker28i said:

Wait and see if there's a place to be had. It's coming up to the point where the car will be revealed to owners and then they have two weeks to decide if they want their deposit back. Then there are known places on the queue, and I'd imagine those places would be worth more?

Your deposit is fully refundable at this stage, and assignable if you choose to sell it on

[jamieduff1981]

unrepentant said:

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. If you want volume then you've got to fit a car with all the stuff you'll find in an upmarket minicab or SUV etc. I think the hope is that they don't want that kind of mass market volume and can build a sustainable business on the type of demand that exists for less completely practical cars.

How much demand do you think is there? Given that they struggled to sell enough at 1/2 the price 10 years ago when there was no competition? From the way they've been talking they want to make 500 cars a year? You think there are enough enthusiasts in the UK who are prepared to forego luxury AND cough up 80 grand plus to sustain that? Why did Weismann fail? Marcos? Jensen? TVR! If they want to make a few cars a year for enthusiasts and do a bit of racing then I can see it but I can't see why a full on commercial venture would succeed when history and the market say otherwise.

Because 10 years ago life in general wasn't quite so 'convenient'. Everything has an automatic gearbox now. Everything has sat nav.

Hipster type people didn't seek out artisan made pots and pans or whatever it is they do now.

A decade ago everything was still going fullsteam towards globalisation. Car manufacturers were all having a BHP arms race.

10 years ago there weren't Volkswagen Golfs for £299/month adjusted downwards to remove inflation which could sprint from 0-60 in 5 seconds.

Now everything can and everyone has got used to it. Golf drivers are saying "it's a supercar with a hatchback" and are members of a TVR forum called Pistonheads trying to pretend they love cars.

Now people are starting to realise that a fast Golf is every bit as dull as a slow Golf. Those who have always had quick cars are realising that some of them at least misplaced their enthusiasm in outright performance. A car doing sub-4 second sprints to 60 thanks to computers isn't fun. It's a novelty that wears off in a week.

There wasn't a Caterham specifically designed to have skinny tyres and a measly 160bhp a decade ago. Morgan didn't sell 3 wheels as fast as they could make them either.

The thing is that those in mass produced cars are judging everyone by their own standards. Yes, most people expect all that st in modern cars. Nobody is disputing that. TVR aren't trying to entice F-Type customers or Vantage customers. They may be shooting for people who drive big cars normally, then go test drive a mainstream mass-produced comfort laden "sports car" and conclude that it doesn't really give them the differentiation that they were looking for from their daily drive.

Buyers for this sort of car will always be a rare breed, but to be blunt, trying to copy a mass produced car and adding in all that crap that "people expect" is more stupid than leaving it all out tbh. What's the USP of a low volume car that looks exactly the same as some mass produced thing on the specs sheet but without the safe feeling of buying from a massive company?

TVR does offer something that Lotus etc doesn't: big engines.

You don't have to "get it". Les Edgar obviously believes that enough individuals do get it to make this sustainable as a low volume manufacturer. He probably knows what Porsches and F-Types include equipment wise and came up with the new TVR's simpler spec fully aware of what those who would never buy the car anyway expect from their mass produced car.

[essexstu]

jamieduff1981 said:

The 201kg mass for the V8 may well be undressed, but it's in the ballpark of the TVR Speed Six engine.


Anyone who's had a modern car apart will attest that it's stuff like 18-way electrically adjustable seats that end up adding significant mass to cars. Automatic gearboxes are also very heavy. Seats can be very comfortable without being electrically adjustable in every dimension.

The very technique used in old TVR body tubs is about the heaviest way to make composite parts - i.e. chopped strand matting and wet-lay-ups. Wet lay up involves a man with a big paint brush literally slapping resin in to the mould and cloth until it's soaked through. The cloth itself is a very heavy material and TVR just cut bits to fill gaps.

More modern techniques include pre-pregnated cloth which has the optimum amount of resin in it already. The pieces are usually marked out, nested by computer to make best use of a roll of cloth and cut out. Each piece has a definite place and the whole lot is laid out in the mold dry. Once ready, the pre-pregnated resin is activated and the bits of cloth stick together. Parts made this way are usually stronger and significantly lighter than the wet-layup technique which always ends up with many kilos of redundant excess resin in the parts.

There will be no fibreglass in the new TVR. Exterior body panels will be a mix of composite, steel and aluminum.

[DonkeyApple]

unrepentant said:

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. If you want volume then you've got to fit a car with all the stuff you'll find in an upmarket minicab or SUV etc. I think the hope is that they don't want that kind of mass market volume and can build a sustainable business on the type of demand that exists for less completely practical cars.

How much demand do you think is there? Given that they struggled to sell enough at 1/2 the price 10 years ago when there was no competition? From the way they've been talking they want to make 500 cars a year? You think there are enough enthusiasts in the UK who are prepared to forego luxury AND cough up 80 grand plus to sustain that? Why did Weismann fail? Marcos? Jensen? TVR! If they want to make a few cars a year for enthusiasts and do a bit of racing then I can see it but I can't see why a full on commercial venture would succeed when history and the market say otherwise.

I don't know what their target but I'm assuming they need to be revenue positive with as few as 200 cars a year. It's not exactly slumming it to not have electric seats though . Satnav is easy to chuck in, as is aircon, as is leather and even heated seats and ducting to put warm air on old peoples' necks etc.

Re Weissman, they went bust because they loaded up with debt, pissed it away and then couldn't make the repayments. Rather than being a product issue it was just two chaps who pretended to be millionaires with the bank's money. Marcos, the chap didn't have enough money and was trying to bring back something that was never big or brilliant. Jensen, no money, no backing and a potential client base who were in their 80s.

Lotus and Morgan are the two existing businesses to focus on. Their premium products are in the same price area and they are shifting a couple of hundred units a year in the UK.

TVR does have a powerful domestic brand so if the initial product is correct then there will be buyers and just as with all forms of high end retail vending the majority of sales will be the base model with a few halo sales but with the halo product doing all the talking. But their biggest issue much like Lotus is that the brand isn't bling enough to attract the big levels of consumer debt that many brands build on.

We'll see. All we can hope is that they get the first one looking right as that is probably what it really all boils down to.

[The Vambo]

dvs_dave said:

Front and rear parking sensors with RVC.

On a sports car? In fact on anything short of a Discovery is crazy. Maybe TVR could do that self parking thing that gives you 30 seconds spare to straighten your seams.

[DonkeyApple]

dvs_dave said:

Anyone who says aircon isn't a requirement is smoking crack, or drives a steam engine as a daily.

Or smells.

[GranCab]

jamieduff1981 said:

I don't accept that's the final word in the matter at all.

There are always people who like to be contrary.

Since "sports cars" are so mainstream now with all the frills that used to be the reason to buy a large saloon cars, they have lost the sportiness.

Some people just want to be awkward. Some people like a challenge. Some people just want to see what life is like with all the bullst stripped back.

Why does anyone in their right mind buy a motorcycle? They aren't very comfortable and most don't have cup holders. Why do some people go out in boats with masts and sails when engines were invented long ago? Why does anyone spend £50k+ and thousands of hours building a Cobra replica kit car when you can buy a Gayman for that money?

Is a big lardy automatic with electric seats and cup holders what most people want? Yes because the fannies are all as soft as ste. Are there still some people who are a bit unorthodox who thinks something with 8 cylinders, rear wheel drive, a limited slip diff, a gearstick, 3 pedals and a steering wheel all wrapped up in a bold body is great value at the same sort of price as all the mass-market stuff aimed at the vanilla people? Apparently so.

It's a poor get-rich-quick scheme, granted, but there are still those of us who snigger at those who want AWD in their "sports car".

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/profile.asp?memberId=350570&tab=2&h=0&f=0&t=0 ... lol

[Ozzie Osmond]

swisstoni said:

And yet Morgan plonk along ...

What are they selling - about 1,000 cars a year through 80 dealers world-wide?

I can't imagine anybody's getting fat with average sales of one car per dealer per month.