RE: Facelifted Audi RS3 Sportback revealed

[GranCab]

So why are BMW offering such amazing deals on these ( and most of the rest of 3,5 and 7 series to be fair ... ) ?

Supply and demand ?

[Wills2]

981C said:

Manufacturers have to make cars that can make the quoted power in all regions, so 40C ambient and at altitude, acknowledging the ECU adjustments for variable conditions, etc.

The F80 example you cite is backed up by performance numbers also.

That's the point I'm making people correcting a self correcting engine leads to higher but false dyno readings.

Not sure what you mean in terms of what is backed up by performance numbers?

[Johnnytheboy]

Funny isn't it?

This is more less my ideal car (relativity small car with lashings of power) but its not raising a semi.

I'm sure it is based on my perception of previous Audi RS models being lumpen. But there we are.

[Wills2]

legless said:

Wills2 said:

I'm always very sceptical of these dyno runs showing that BMW are giving people 40-50hp for free, a business that charges 1k for a 20-25hp remap and charges for options like a wounded rhino but suddenly starts giving everyone free power and underrating its cars.

Modern turbo engines self correct for ambient temp and altitude but people stick them on dynos still set up to correct a correcting engine and then use a made up drive train loss number to get a big crank number.

There was a big thread on F80 post regarding the dyno numbers as people were dynoing stock F80s at 420-430hp at the wheels giving almost a zero drive train loss to the quoted crank number which clearly isn't right.

Autobild also did a piece on it comparing uncorrected/corrected numbers on a Porsche turbo and found the power was to spec once they used uncorrected dynos, previously it was over spec.

You might get another 5-10hp but not another 40-50hp.

The problem is that all of these inflated numbers invariably come from chassis dynos, which can basically read whatever you want them to read by changing some of the parameters.

I work for a large car manufacturer, and spent some time in the powertrain development department. As part of this, we'd regularly take the engines of rival manufacturers and put them on our engine dynamometers - directly attaching the dyno to the flywheel.

These dynos were seriously specialised pieces of kit, produced by AVL and cost in the region of £3m each, far, far in excess of anything used by tuning houses.

Not once did I see an engine on these dynos produce anything that varied from the manufacturer's quoted output by more than 3%. It was rare enough to get more than 2% variation to be honest. This included engines that are regularly claimed to be conservatively rated, such as the various VW TDIs, BMW turbos etc.

Put the same engine in a car and put it on a chassis dynos, and it was quite easy to get a dyno printout showing ludicrous power just by not setting the ambient temp correctly etc.

Indeed...yet the myths still persist generally from owners trying to fluff their feathers up.

[nickfrog]

GranCab said:

So why are BMW offering such amazing deals on these ( and most of the rest of 3,5 and 7 series to be fair ... ) ?

Supply and demand ?

The deals on the M140i are particularly aggressive. I guess most people think RWD is undriveable in the wet or that you have to be a driving god (not sure what that is) to keep it in a straight line when in reality they are benign. It doesn't actually matter how cheap they are as they have superb residuals to boot. I lost less than £200/month in the first 12 months.

[fur53y]

I currently have an 8V RS3 and previously owned both an e90 M3 and a 1M. All of the cars are amazing and very different. I loved the 1M but it was very uncompromising for a daily. The M3 was thin on torque but fun on revs and noise! The RS3 sounds better than both, is a nice quality "object" and place to be day to day. It's also faster than both in the real world if less visceral (and therefore tiring). Variety is the spice of life!

[MikeGoodwin]

Like the last one and the one before it, the paper recipe is so right but it will end up being spoiled by poor cooks.

As a petrol head its hugely disappointing because the car should be great. Good engine, well built. Looks alrite. Sounds good. But I dont think Audi would shift as many as they do if they made it engaging to drive and aimed their target sales at petrol heads.

[VGTICE]

Dave Hedgehog said:

i found the 135i and 235i whilst well setup utterly dull and devoid of any enjoyment to drive

Mate be careful, you're entering a danger zone. Just google some M135i threads on here.

[Ahbefive]

Junior supercar don't ya know

[981C]

Wills2 said:

That's the point I'm making people correcting a self correcting engine leads to higher but false dyno readings.

Not sure what you mean in terms of what is backed up by performance numbers?

F82 is a good 2 seconds faster to 100mph than the equivalent E92 I had, with 6% variation in the power-to-weight ratio.

Now I understand that the car is making much more power in the lower rpms, but the disparity seems too large to explain by that alone. Also, the M3/4 stand up very well in a similar sprint against the 510bhp C63 S which has a lot more low-end power and 7% better P:W overall.

Edited by 981C on Saturday 11th February 12:18

[Ahbefive]

But what about torque?

[nunpuncher]

GranCab said:

From Autocar's road test of the BMW M140i ...

"3.0-litre engine has been replaced with an even more powerful 335bhp six-cylinder motor."

"Unsurprisingly, with its six-cylinder turbocharged engine producing the same power and torque as the iconic 1M Coupé, the M140i is properly quick in a straight line. If you can get it hooked up (made all the more difficult thanks to the absence of a proper limited-slip differential), the hatch can complete the run from 0-62mph in just 4.6sec"

"There are limitations though. On really rough roads there's a point where the suspension finally cries enough and fails to react to multiple inputs. Mid-corner this can cause the car to feel unsettled and loose, and combined with the lack of a limited-slip diff and its overly light variable-ratio steering, a Mercedes A45 AMG or Volkswagen Golf R would leave the BMW for dust on a bumpy rural road."

People on pistonheads don't care about handling. It has 6 cylinders and Rwd therefore it's amazing and the fact almost every review says the same as the above doesn't matter. It's cheap, it has a big engine and it's rwd. Nothing else matters.

I drove an early m135i for 6 months and the steering, suspension and overall feel of the chassis left a lot to be desired. I can see how many get drawn in by the noise and the acceleration along with the chunky discount dangled after a test drive but really it's a long long way off the best car in this segment.

Beyond the engine the rs3 does little for me. Audi have probably made the worst job of building fast hatches on that platform. They should let someone else have a shot of the engine, see if they can do better with the rest of the things that matter.

[Tim bo]

Another hatchback that looks like what yer mum uses to go to Sainsburys in, and is about as exciting as the resulting groceries.

No thanks.

[daemon]

nickfrog said:

GranCab said:

So why are BMW offering such amazing deals on these ( and most of the rest of 3,5 and 7 series to be fair ... ) ?

Supply and demand ?

The deals on the M140i are particularly aggressive. I guess most people think RWD is undriveable in the wet or that you have to be a driving god (not sure what that is) to keep it in a straight line when in reality they are benign. It doesn't actually matter how cheap they are as they have superb residuals to boot. I lost less than £200/month in the first 12 months.

I'm assuming they build them on the same production line as every other one series, which are aggressively discounted, and ultimately as far as BMW is concerned its just a "unit" sold?

[Axionknight]

Id rather have a manual M2 - I appreciate that it's a smaller car but I'd bet good cash money that it's a more involving/better steer.

[daemon]

GranCab said:

So why are BMW offering such amazing deals on these ( and most of the rest of 3,5 and 7 series to be fair ... ) ?

Supply and demand ?

I think they're aggressively targetting market share, so are setting their franchisees massive targets, which can only be met by heavy discounting?

[Inverted]

fur53y said:

I currently have an 8V RS3 and previously owned both an e90 M3 and a 1M. All of the cars are amazing and very different. I loved the 1M but it was very uncompromising for a daily. The M3 was thin on torque but fun on revs and noise! The RS3 sounds better than both, is a nice quality "object" and place to be day to day. It's also faster than both in the real world if less visceral (and therefore tiring). Variety is the spice of life!

Couldnt agree more. Having owned/own 997 RS, E90 M3, E46 CSL, Exige S, R26.R I think the RS3 is great.

Although maybe you didnt have the 4 pipe mod done to the exhaust on the E90. It sounds how it should have done then.

[nickfrog]

nunpuncher said:

People on pistonheads don't care about handling. It has 6 cylinders and Rwd therefore it's amazing and the fact almost every review says the same as the above doesn't matter. It's cheap, it has a big engine and it's rwd. Nothing else matters.

I drove an early m135i for 6 months and the steering, suspension and overall feel of the chassis left a lot to be desired. I can see how many get drawn in by the noise and the acceleration along with the chunky discount dangled after a test drive but really it's a long long way off the best car in this segment.

Chris Harris seems to disagree with you on the M135i/M140i. From 13:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xwecTp91-o
I have found it quite superb and still can't think of a better hatch, even if for me the engine and straight line perf are secondary. But the car was transformed by fitting M4 LCAs which enhanced steering feel / turn in sharpness what with 2deg of neg camber.
Having said that mine made way for a Megane as utlimately that's better for track use despite being statically imbalanced and FWD.

[nickfrog]

daemon said:

I'm assuming they build them on the same production line as every other one series, which are aggressively discounted, and ultimately as far as BMW is concerned its just a "unit" sold?

The discounts on M135i/M140i have actually been higher than the other 1-series, currently 23% off. Which is brilliant. I am tempted to buy one of the last ones before it moves to FWD/4WD/4-pot.

[daemon]

nickfrog said:

daemon said:

I'm assuming they build them on the same production line as every other one series, which are aggressively discounted, and ultimately as far as BMW is concerned its just a "unit" sold?

The discounts on M135i/M140i have actually been higher than the other 1-series, currently 23% off. Which is brilliant. I am tempted to buy one of the last ones before it moves to FWD/4WD/4-pot.

Thats amazing.

At that sort of price and with very limited depreciation they'd make a cracking deal.