RE: Driven: Porsche Cayman R

[shoestring7]

RobM77 said:

Raitzi said:

I think you can spec up cayman to turn more like evora and R8 by taking car to a tuning shop with porsche racing experience. I have heard that increasing camber helps a lot to reduce understeer with cayman. R has more camber in fron and rear and i think you can also increase it more with stock setup compared to S or the base model. (S maxes somewhere aroun 0.9 degrees)Cayman S won motortrend handling award even though it understeered more that R8 which came 2nd.

I respect lotus for making car that does not understeer. But they should really lower the price and try to get one dealer or repair shop to most capitals in Europe. I heard that their strategy however will be to increase prices and recude number of shops. I would be interested in lotus if gearbox was better and they had a dealer or at least repair shop in Helsinki area in Finland.

I actually love the handling on the Cayman, it's just the feedback and controls that dissapointed me.

CAR said (of the R) the steering was "Swiss Chronograph precise" and "beautifully weighted" and "very nearly as communicative" [as the Evora's] which "talks through the wheel". And as you point out the Cayman uses the same steering system as the GT Porsche, and I don't know of any complaints about non-linear steering. Nor do I read any other guff about throttle lag, which I'm afraid exists only in your imagination.

What was interesting in the CAR article was to read that the Evora's gear change and build quality was "much better" that the launch cars that the same journalists raved over a year or so ago. Clearly what they meant was the the gear change and build quality was "much better that the crap we found in the cars we hyper-ventilated about last year".

While I wish the Lotus every success with the Evora, the British press really do themselves (or Lotus)no favours when they overlook such major issues.

SS7

[juansolo]

shoestring7 said:

What was interesting in the CAR article was to read that the Evora's gear change and build quality was "much better" that the launch cars that the same journalists raved over a year or so ago. Clearly what they meant was the the gear change and build quality was "much better that the crap we found in the cars we hyper-ventilated about last year".

While I wish the Lotus every success with the Evora, the British press really do themselves (or Lotus)no favours when they overlook such major issues.

SS7

I drove one with the new gearbox. It was still unacceptably bad for a £50k car. The strong smell of glue also did it no favours in the perceived quality stakes. Still drives brilliantly, but at price they want for it, it needs to do much more than just that.

[RobM77]

shoestring7 said:

CAR said (of the R) the steering was "Swiss Chronograph precise" and "beautifully weighted" and "very nearly as communicative" [as the Evora's] which "talks through the wheel". And as you point out the Cayman uses the same steering system as the GT Porsche, and I don't know of any complaints about non-linear steering.

I'd certainly agree with it being precise and beautifully weighted, in fact I've stated this before many times on here. The feedback being Evora like is a bit far fetched though!

shoestring7 said:

Nor do I read any other guff about throttle lag, which I'm afraid exists only in your imagination.

That's a bold claim! And an incorrect one. We've been through this before on here many times, and I'm sure you've been there? On one memorable thread loads of people claimed it didn't exist on my BMW because it was never mentioned in any reviews and they couldn't feel it in their cars, and then I posted a You Tube video clearly showing it plus was backed up by other posters, one of whom also posted a video of his car doing it too. It's clearly there, and you can measure it (with a stopwatch in my old E46 330ci - a whole second...), it's just that it doesn't bother some people. I notice you've got a 2.7; I haven't driven that version and it may not have it, but I can assure you that I've driven two Cayman Ss and they both did it. A good friend of mine spent a day with a 997 C2S and said that the lag in that drove him crazy. This is probably driver dependent, but I assure you, it is there.

shoestring7 said:

While I wish the Lotus every success with the Evora, the British press really do themselves (or Lotus)no favours when they overlook such major issues.SS7

This explains both of the above. I read and enjoy car magazines regularly, but they don't tell you the whole story for fear of upsetting manufacturers. Just look at Chris Harris' recent outburst about Ferrari; whilst many of us knew about that, magazines didn't ever mention it in print for fear of upsetting Maranello. Also, look at Autocar, who waited ten years to admit that a test Ford had "car of the year" chalked onto its dampers I'm not saying Porsche are fiddling press cars (absolutely not), but just that magazines are great, but they won't tell you the whole story, especially if it's derogatory towards a car.

[SFO]

juansolo said:

shoestring7 said:

What was interesting in the CAR article was to read that the Evora's gear change and build quality was "much better" that the launch cars that the same journalists raved over a year or so ago. Clearly what they meant was the the gear change and build quality was "much better that the crap we found in the cars we hyper-ventilated about last year".

While I wish the Lotus every success with the Evora, the British press really do themselves (or Lotus)no favours when they overlook such major issues.

SS7

I drove one with the new gearbox. It was still unacceptably bad for a £50k car. The strong smell of glue also did it no favours in the perceived quality stakes. Still drives brilliantly, but at price they want for it, it needs to do much more than just that.

I had an Evora S for 24 hours. The gearbox is utterly mediocre. It works yes, but it feels poorly engineered, flimsy and recalcitrant. The engine is powerful, but the sounds it makes are artificial, and just plain annoying after a while.

At best, the Evora S is £40k car, not over £60k.

[Harry Monk]

RobM77 said:

I posted a You Tube video clearly showing it plus was backed up by other posters, one of whom also posted a video of his car doing it too. It's clearly there, and you can measure it (with a stopwatch in my old E46 330ci - a whole second...)

I'd be interested in seeing your Youtube video.

[RobM77]

Harry Monk said:

I'd be interested in seeing your Youtube video.

Sure. This is my Z4 Coupé; which in fact had a very small delay. The Cayman S is slightly worse than this (similar to an E46 M3 for example); the E46 330ci a lot worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MsoBlLIrNk

If you check my other videos, you'll see my Elise S2 111S for comparison (cable throttle), and interestingly, a video of my BMW E90 320d, which is diesel and doesn't have a delay at all.

[HAB]

Christ, it never ends. Groundhog Day springs to mind.


I found the gearchange in the Evora reminiscent of a badly assembled kit car. Actually, the engine particularly, and the car in general, felt just a little bit too 'homemade', given it's price.

As for build quality, I can only imagine what a well-used Evora would look like in 10 years time. I also think the front end styling is faintly ridiculous.

Or, the most abiding memory in a five hour journey from the Highlands to Edinburgh in a K-series Elise was 'why would you put this engine in this car?' I couldn't wait to get out.

Now that I've brought these completely subjective, personal opinions to PH's attention, I'm going to repeat them on every single new thread regarding both the Evora & Elise.

Possibly, if I can be bothered.

[RobM77]

HAB said:

Christ, it never ends. Groundhog Day springs to mind.


I found the gearchange in the Evora reminiscent of a badly assembled kit car. Actually, the engine particularly, and the car in general, felt just a little bit too 'homemade', given it's price.

As for build quality, I can only imagine what a well-used Evora would look like in 10 years time. I also think the front end styling is faintly ridiculous.

Or, the most abiding memory in a five hour journey from the Highlands to Edinburgh in a K-series Elise was 'why would you put this engine in this car?' I couldn't wait to get out.

Now that I've brought these completely subjective, personal opinions to PH's attention, I'm going to repeat them on every single new thread regarding both the Evora & Elise.

Possibly, if I can be bothered.

That's just it though, it's subjective. We all have our own subjective opinions on cars, and this being a discussion forum, we should be able to share those opinions with people when the cars in question come up in discussion. Oh, and if we all just posted our thoughts once we'd have a very short shelf life as posters on Pistonheads! If you don't like the groundhog day effect, then I would suggest you censor the threads you click on! I reckon if you did that starting from today within three months you'd end up only reading the news section - everything else here's been done before.

[HAB]

Discussions are there to be developed, Rob. Once you've made your point you move on to the next one. PH is a community, and most members of that community will be well aware of your views on certain things.

If you keep repeating the same things over and over again, it begins to look like you have an agenda (even if you don't)

[RobM77]

HAB said:

Discussions are there to be developed, Rob. Once you've made your point you move on to the next one. PH is a community, and most members of that community will be well aware of your views on certain things.

If you keep repeating the same things over and over again, it begins to look like you have an agenda (even if you don't)

My policy is to mention something in full the very first time (as I did with the Cayman three or four years ago when I first drove one), and thereafter just mention it in one or two words (as I did on this thread). It is only when asked to expand on these statements that I bring back in the full description until the person asking the question is satisfied (and often they're not, so the explanation spirals). This thread is a classic example of this if you look back at my posts.

Usually the people asking the questions are new here, and I think it's unfair and cliquey for me to just ignore them, assuming they have read years of our posts before daring to ask a question! I will always answer questions and be as polite as possible, so the only thing I can suggest you do as a long term PHer is skim over it. Sorry! You can't please everyone I guess.

[Raitzi]

About throttle lag.
I think one issue can be that Cayman uses too "high" final gear which can make engine seem to have slow response. Cheap and good way to make car response more sharply is to "lower" that final gear and make it accelerate better. People also report that changing exhaust system to less restrictive has impacted response. Of course there are many tricks which can imrove throttle response.

[HAB]

RobM77 said:

My policy is to mention something in full the very first time (as I did with the Cayman three or four years ago when I first drove one), and thereafter just mention it in one or two words (as I did on this thread). It is only when asked to expand on these statements that I bring back in the full description until the person asking the question is satisfied (and often they're not, so the explanation spirals). This thread is a classic example of this if you look back at my posts.

I think you must be looking at a different thread. Straight from the off, you went in to you usual large post about how you found the Cayman. Not one or two words, by any stretch!

Additionally, no one asked you to expand on anything, your unprompted first post on this thread was the usual 'steering,throttle delay,blah blah' stuff culminating in how the Evora or Elise is the superior car. You do this so much that it beggars belief, frankly.

Carry on though, It matters not a jot. I'm not a prolific poster on PH, and I contribute less and less these days as I've come to the conclusion car forums are pretty vacous, puerile places - the online version of Pub braggadocio.

It's just when I do, I see after many years you're still trotting out the same old line, and I wonder why.

As you were.

[shoestring7]

Raitzi said:

About throttle lag.
I think one issue can be that Cayman uses too "high" final gear which can make engine seem to have slow response.

Ah, you're suggesting Rob was in the wrong gear then.

SS7

[Harry Monk]

HAB said:

Carry on though, It matters not a jot. I'm not a prolific poster on PH, and I contribute less and less these days as I've come to the conclusion car forums are pretty vacous, puerile places - the online version of Pub braggadocio.

What you need is a Lotus Elise in your life.

[HAB]

Harry Monk said:

What you need is a Lotus Elise in your life.

Nah, the engines guff. Did I ever tell you about the time...oh forget it!

[Harry Monk]

I need somebody here to tell me how nuggety the handling is when dancing at the limit of oversteer. Somebody who preferably has a competition background.

[film guy voice]In a world where the difference between success and failure can be measured in milliseconds, a hero amongst us will rise...

[havoc]

Harry Monk said:

I need somebody here to tell me how nuggety the handling is when dancing at the limit of oversteer. Somebody who preferably has a competition background.

[film guy voice]In a world where the difference between success and failure can be measured in milliseconds, a hero amongst us will rise...

Now that's one thing that gets me about current car magazines, and esp. (recently) 'dab of oppo' - they spend ages going on about the cars on-the-limit behaviour, stuff that most owners won't actually get near on the public road (and most owners won't go on track). Which surely then becomes even more 'pie & piston' bragging rights.

I'd far rather hear more about the ride, the control precision and linearity, the feedback, the driving position, the sound, the "overall" of the car, not how easy it is to powerslide by someone with a competition background and no insurance worries...

[Harry Monk]

Thanks for this. I always like hearing what's important to real owners as it informs the output I create when testing vehicles. Recently saw an Autocar video where they were drifting a RR Ghost and it just made me laugh out loud at how presposterously wide of the mark it was. It might as well have featured a Lotus Exige being loaded with bags of cement and lengths of 4x2 at Jewson.

I have seen so many instances of road testers assessing vehicles 'as road testers' and not through the eyes of the target audience. Had one guy moaning about the on-limit handling of the Toyota Verso S the other day. When I pointed out to him that it was a car aimed at pensioners, he didn't seem to care.

Edited by Harry Monk on Monday 21st March 20:08

[havoc]

Harry Monk said:

It might as well have featured a Lotus Exige being loaded with bags of cement and lengths of 4x2 at Jewson.

I once discovered that a couple of hundredweight of bricks spread around the inside of an ITR gets you noticed by the plod...

[Dagnut]

havoc said:

Now that's one thing that gets me about current car magazines, and esp. (recently) 'dab of oppo' - they spend ages going on about the cars on-the-limit behaviour, stuff that most owners won't actually get near on the public road (and most owners won't go on track). Which surely then becomes even more 'pie & piston' bragging rights.

I'd far rather hear more about the ride, the control precision and linearity, the feedback, the driving position, the sound, the "overall" of the car, not how easy it is to powerslide by someone with a competition background and no insurance worries...

That's a good point, but I think this has more to do with how the consumer market for sports cars has gone...the whole Top Gear and playstation generation that has developed. The positive side of this is because cars are now easier to drive at the limit, it's easier for the average driver to get more out of their car..the negative side is the perception is that cars are becoming duller and less involving....but I think if you look at this objectively there weren't that many involving cars around in the 90's anyway...the few that were are still hailed as legends now.