Why are people buying expensive diesels?
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
Not at 15mph it won't. 
But neither does the 335d average 40mpg at 15mph. I know for me to go from Greenwich to Brixton and back in traffic our X3 20d is only doing 30mpg, the F11 520d was only doing 31mpg.
My 335i would show at least 24mpg doing that same run.
So it's all relative.
But that isn't really the point, I was asking him whether he like the 335d to be his one and only car?
I sold my M3 and my A6 tdi avant to buy the 535d Touring, a one car does it all move. After 3 months I regretted, after 6 months I started to like the 535d more as I had sort of forgotten what the M3 was like, then I was loaned a 130i and started hankering after another petrol again. I ended up with a 335i which I loved, after trying an S4 and hating it.
Looking back on all my cars, if I had to choose one car now to last me for the next 5 years, I seriously think it would be a 340i Sport Touring, in fact I keep speccing them up, just the interior is feeling a bit dated compared with other cars out there, so going to wait and see what the Mercedes C450 estate has to offer before deciding what to do next.
It was a genuine question, would he be happy with the 335d as his one car? That to me really tells me if someone loves their car.
ORD said:
All true about the average motorist. But the average motorist isn't really worth listening to about cars.
If someone can't change down to be in the power band, he or she probably doesn't have much of an interest in cars or driving.
You also won't be saving any fuel if the engine is under heavy load. Revs don't matter as much as load, as far as I know.
I agree with this. But that's the reality it. Most people have no idea what a power band is. They go for diesel because of residuals perceived fuel economy and a lazy driving style.If someone can't change down to be in the power band, he or she probably doesn't have much of an interest in cars or driving.
You also won't be saving any fuel if the engine is under heavy load. Revs don't matter as much as load, as far as I know.
The irony with regard to performance diesels is that they are no more efficient under load than petrol. If I spank it in my car the fuel consumption drops to 6 or 7 mpg. Just as it would with a petrol car. Where it wins is that it will easily bounce back to 42mpg on a motorway run even allowing for a bit of enthusiastic acceleration.
Elysium said:
I agree with this. But that's the reality it. Most people have no idea what a power band is. They go for diesel because of residuals perceived fuel economy and a lazy driving style.
The irony with regard to performance diesels is that they are no more efficient under load than petrol. If I spank it in my car the fuel consumption drops to 6 or 7 mpg. Just as it would with a petrol car. Where it wins is that it will easily bounce back to 42mpg on a motorway run even allowing for a bit of enthusiastic acceleration.
A lot of real world fuel economy is down to how the car encourages the driver to drive. A sThe irony with regard to performance diesels is that they are no more efficient under load than petrol. If I spank it in my car the fuel consumption drops to 6 or 7 mpg. Just as it would with a petrol car. Where it wins is that it will easily bounce back to 42mpg on a motorway run even allowing for a bit of enthusiastic acceleration.
tty 4 cyl diesel makes you so bored and depressed that you can't be bothered to accelerate, whereas a nice 6 cyl petrol engine cries out for revs and makes you drive faster. A lot of diesel cars basically disconnect the throttle pedal from the engine, too, which helps. You get a computer disagreeing with you about how much fuel to use! I doubt any of this applies to performance diesels, and I expect that you have to be a bit of a dawdler to see more than 35mpg consistently in any fast car.gizlaroc said:
VUB said:
The diesel averages 40mpg, the M3 averages 15mpg.
If you had to only have one car, would you keep the 335d or the M3? Or, the other option is swap both for a 340i that returns around 33mpg.
ORD said:
I doubt any of this applies to performance diesels, and I expect that you have to be a bit of a dawdler to see more than 35mpg consistently in any fast car.
I averaged 22mpg in my 335i. In the Audi I have averaged 33mpg over 14,000 miles of similarly mixed driving.I don't hang around and, now that it is run in, I regularly see 42mpg on any trip involving a decent stretch of motorway.
Strict adherence to the speed limit would easily push this toward 50mpg, which is nuts for a car that will pull to 60mph in 5 secs.
ORD said:
Elysium said:
I agree with this. But that's the reality it. Most people have no idea what a power band is. They go for diesel because of residuals perceived fuel economy and a lazy driving style.
The irony with regard to performance diesels is that they are no more efficient under load than petrol. If I spank it in my car the fuel consumption drops to 6 or 7 mpg. Just as it would with a petrol car. Where it wins is that it will easily bounce back to 42mpg on a motorway run even allowing for a bit of enthusiastic acceleration.
A lot of real world fuel economy is down to how the car encourages the driver to drive. A sThe irony with regard to performance diesels is that they are no more efficient under load than petrol. If I spank it in my car the fuel consumption drops to 6 or 7 mpg. Just as it would with a petrol car. Where it wins is that it will easily bounce back to 42mpg on a motorway run even allowing for a bit of enthusiastic acceleration.
tty 4 cyl diesel makes you so bored and depressed that you can't be bothered to accelerate, whereas a nice 6 cyl petrol engine cries out for revs and makes you drive faster. A lot of diesel cars basically disconnect the throttle pedal from the engine, too, which helps. You get a computer disagreeing with you about how much fuel to use! I doubt any of this applies to performance diesels, and I expect that you have to be a bit of a dawdler to see more than 35mpg consistently in any fast car.Same goes for the MPS because turbo and it loves to rev (although not as much as the RX-8).
Elysium said:
The dyno graphs I have seen are a bit wider than that, showing peak torque from 1750 to 2500rpm. That said, the one you linked to still shows 550nm at 4500rpm. Whilst it's below peak that's still a lot of twisting force.
Biggest issue with this car is actually gearbox response times and mapping as it occasionally kicks down and drops you out of the peak. After a while you learn that you will be quicker on part throttle keeping the revs low and rising he wave of torque.
Strangely it actually adds a bit of character to the car.
It is an interesting graph and it's mapped well, obviously, but one thing I hate about my engine and it will be the same for you, with all that torque coming in so aggressively, there is no way you can handle that without 4WD and a proper beefy DCT - a normal auto box torque converter would seriously lag behind imho. It's fine for Audi's but for BMW that is a bit of a problem. I'm looking at the Birds LSD because although it has the 1M engine and M3 gearbox, it doesn't have the M diff, and it sucks as a result. I put my foot down too aggressively and I'm just burning out my rear brakes. Turn off DSC and I'm burning the tyre(s).Biggest issue with this car is actually gearbox response times and mapping as it occasionally kicks down and drops you out of the peak. After a while you learn that you will be quicker on part throttle keeping the revs low and rising he wave of torque.
Strangely it actually adds a bit of character to the car.
Edited by stuart-b on Wednesday 23 September 17:14
stuart-b said:
It is an interesting graph and it's mapped well, obviously, but one thing I hate about my engine and it will be the same for you, with all that torque coming in so aggressively, there is no way you can handle that without 4WD and a proper beefy DCT - a normal auto box torque converter would seriously lag behind imho. It's fine for Audi's but for BMW that is a bit of a problem. I'm looking at the Birds LSD because although it has the 1M engine and M3 gearbox, it doesn't have the M diff, and it sucks as a result. I put my foot down too aggressively and I'm just burning out my rear brakes. Turn off DSC and I'm burning the tyre(s).
Strangely enough it's actually the opposite situation in my car, the chassis never feels overwhelmed by the power and it's all very safe. The Bitdi engine comes with Quattro 4 wheel drive and I also specified the sports diff which adds active yaw control to the rear axle. The Quattro defaults to a 60:40 rear bias and the diff can send up to 100% of the rear torque to either wheel. The idea is that it accelerates the outer wheel when turning in to counteract understeer. It's very clever and welcome when you are on a wet motorway slip road, but if you are out to have fun it means that the rear will not let go unless you are at silly speeds.
In contrast my 335i wagged it's tail constantly and with the most aggressive mapping engaged it would wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gear. The downside was that this also allowed the DSC to kick in an drop the engine power.
Not sure which I prefer to be absolutely honest
Elysium said:
I averaged 22mpg in my 335i. In the Audi I have averaged 33mpg over 14,000 miles of similarly mixed driving.
I don't hang around and, now that it is run in, I regularly see 42mpg on any trip involving a decent stretch of motorway.
Strict adherence to the speed limit would easily push this toward 50mpg, which is nuts for a car that will pull to 60mph in 5 secs.
I struggled for 30mpg in my 330i but will easily see 50+ on a run in my 435d.I don't hang around and, now that it is run in, I regularly see 42mpg on any trip involving a decent stretch of motorway.
Strict adherence to the speed limit would easily push this toward 50mpg, which is nuts for a car that will pull to 60mph in 5 secs.
With the latter being much quicker and the power being there when I need it without having to wring it's neck.
I'm happy with it and don't miss the petrol noise.
Different strokes for different folks as they say. This discussion has got far too in depth for my tiny brain!
Elysium said:
Strangely enough it's actually the opposite situation in my car, the chassis never feels overwhelmed by the power and it's all very safe. The Bitdi engine comes with Quattro 4 wheel drive and I also specified the sports diff which adds active yaw control to the rear axle.
The Quattro defaults to a 60:40 rear bias and the diff can send up to 100% of the rear torque to either wheel. The idea is that it accelerates the outer wheel when turning in to counteract understeer. It's very clever and welcome when you are on a wet motorway slip road, but if you are out to have fun it means that the rear will not let go unless you are at silly speeds.
In contrast my 335i wagged it's tail constantly and with the most aggressive mapping engaged it would wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gear. The downside was that this also allowed the DSC to kick in an drop the engine power.
Not sure which I prefer to be absolutely honest
Yes, with 4WD and not FWD it can handle it.The Quattro defaults to a 60:40 rear bias and the diff can send up to 100% of the rear torque to either wheel. The idea is that it accelerates the outer wheel when turning in to counteract understeer. It's very clever and welcome when you are on a wet motorway slip road, but if you are out to have fun it means that the rear will not let go unless you are at silly speeds.
In contrast my 335i wagged it's tail constantly and with the most aggressive mapping engaged it would wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gear. The downside was that this also allowed the DSC to kick in an drop the engine power.
Not sure which I prefer to be absolutely honest
335i with quaife diff and 265 section PSS on the rear (and probably upgraded anti rollbars, mounts + Koni or Eibach, then... problem solved
Not spending a penny more on my car until the diff is fitted.
Edited by stuart-b on Wednesday 23 September 17:32
AB said:
I struggled for 30mpg in my 330i but will easily see 50+ on a run in my 435d.
With the latter being much quicker and the power being there when I need it without having to wring it's neck.
I'm happy with it and don't miss the petrol noise.
Different strokes for different folks as they say. This discussion has got far too in depth for my tiny brain!
But you sir are cheating! It has 4 wheel drive! It also probably pumps M3 noises through the speakers With the latter being much quicker and the power being there when I need it without having to wring it's neck.
I'm happy with it and don't miss the petrol noise.
Different strokes for different folks as they say. This discussion has got far too in depth for my tiny brain!
Elysium said:
Strangely enough it's actually the opposite situation in my car, the chassis never feels overwhelmed by the power and it's all very safe. The Bitdi engine comes with Quattro 4 wheel drive and I also specified the sports diff which adds active yaw control to the rear axle.
The Quattro defaults to a 60:40 rear bias and the diff can send up to 100% of the rear torque to either wheel. The idea is that it accelerates the outer wheel when turning in to counteract understeer. It's very clever and welcome when you are on a wet motorway slip road, but if you are out to have fun it means that the rear will not let go unless you are at silly speeds.
In contrast my 335i wagged it's tail constantly and with the most aggressive mapping engaged it would wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gear. The downside was that this also allowed the DSC to kick in an drop the engine power.
Not sure which I prefer to be absolutely honest
In other words, a fast Audi drives like a fast Audi The Quattro defaults to a 60:40 rear bias and the diff can send up to 100% of the rear torque to either wheel. The idea is that it accelerates the outer wheel when turning in to counteract understeer. It's very clever and welcome when you are on a wet motorway slip road, but if you are out to have fun it means that the rear will not let go unless you are at silly speeds.
In contrast my 335i wagged it's tail constantly and with the most aggressive mapping engaged it would wheel spin in 3rd and 4th gear. The downside was that this also allowed the DSC to kick in an drop the engine power.
Not sure which I prefer to be absolutely honest
I cant say I see the point in fast but dull cars, but each to his own.yonex said:
Sorry, 180mph+ 535D
What's next, it has a better throttle response and sounds nicer?
Seriously. This is all beyond delusional.
To clarify, I am not a diesel fan, will never buy one unless I had a very long commute. They (535d) have 286 BHP as standard in his case (2008 model) and are limited to 155 mph stock, his car is chipped by a large well known Swedish BMW tuner, bigger injectors and no DFP, and is dynoed @ 365 BHP and almost 700 mn of torque and I assure you that 300 km/h indicated speed on the GPS is no BS. Although the climb from 250 and up takes a while.What's next, it has a better throttle response and sounds nicer?
Seriously. This is all beyond delusional.
As a reference my 326 hp and 500 nm V12 E38 750 didn't have a prayer, I got smoked (literally) big time. And that one albeit being old still had enough punch to absolutely murder my other friends e93 330d convertible both from a stand still and on the move.
Edited by PowerslideSWE on Wednesday 23 September 18:24
Edited by PowerslideSWE on Wednesday 23 September 18:41
Edited by PowerslideSWE on Wednesday 23 September 18:42
AB said:
I struggled for 30mpg in my 330i but will easily see 50+ on a run in my 435d.
With the latter being much quicker and the power being there when I need it without having to wring it's neck.
My mrs laughs her head off at how gutless the 330i is compared to the 640d which is to be expected really as the 640d has twice as much torque and more bhp too, I can see what she means though as the 640 will pick up very strong at only 1500rpm so it always feels quick.With the latter being much quicker and the power being there when I need it without having to wring it's neck.
You have to absolutely wring the 330`s neck and even then its questionable whether A...its worth it or B...whether it actually goes quick anyway!
So for most people the diesel will win hands down as it has effortless useable power which day to day is what most want, she asked me why I went 330i instead of another 330d and I just said I prefer N/A petrol engines...she thinks I am nuts and to be fair she may have a good point.
cerb4.5lee said:
My mrs laughs her head off at how gutless the 330i is compared to the 640d which is to be expected really as the 640d has twice as much torque and more bhp too, I can see what she means though as the 640 will pick up very strong at only 1500rpm so it always feels quick.
You have to absolutely wring the 330`s neck and even then its questionable whether A...its worth it or B...whether it actually goes quick anyway!
So for most people the diesel will win hands down as it has effortless useable power which day to day is what most want, she asked me why I went 330i instead of another 330d and I just said I prefer N/A petrol engines...she thinks I am nuts and to be fair she may have a good point.
Apples and oranges there tho. Turbo diesel 6 vs naturally aspirated petrol 6. Of course the 330 will feel gutless in comparison.You have to absolutely wring the 330`s neck and even then its questionable whether A...its worth it or B...whether it actually goes quick anyway!
So for most people the diesel will win hands down as it has effortless useable power which day to day is what most want, she asked me why I went 330i instead of another 330d and I just said I prefer N/A petrol engines...she thinks I am nuts and to be fair she may have a good point.
jbsportstech said:
We're the hell can you get 180mph out a of 535d? What tyres does he run to sustain speed like that? Sounds like an accident waiting to happen cars need to be carefully made to do speeds like. Are you sure everyone else isn't slowing Down cause they can't see the road for the black smoke?
You're joking right? Y rated tyres... It's not like a W rated tyre will explode the instance it goes above the 270 km/h it's rated at either. PowerslideSWE said:
cerb4.5lee said:
My mrs laughs her head off at how gutless the 330i is compared to the 640d which is to be expected really as the 640d has twice as much torque and more bhp too, I can see what she means though as the 640 will pick up very strong at only 1500rpm so it always feels quick.
You have to absolutely wring the 330`s neck and even then its questionable whether A...its worth it or B...whether it actually goes quick anyway!
So for most people the diesel will win hands down as it has effortless useable power which day to day is what most want, she asked me why I went 330i instead of another 330d and I just said I prefer N/A petrol engines...she thinks I am nuts and to be fair she may have a good point.
Apples and oranges there tho. Turbo diesel 6 vs naturally aspirated petrol 6. Of course the 330 will feel gutless in comparison.You have to absolutely wring the 330`s neck and even then its questionable whether A...its worth it or B...whether it actually goes quick anyway!
So for most people the diesel will win hands down as it has effortless useable power which day to day is what most want, she asked me why I went 330i instead of another 330d and I just said I prefer N/A petrol engines...she thinks I am nuts and to be fair she may have a good point.
the 330i also feels gutless when compared to a 330d too but I described to my mrs that on a back road thrash for me the 330i would be more rewarding ultimately than the 330d but she doesn't seem to understand that though so you can see why most love diesels maybe. cerb4.5lee said:
Yes I completely agree the 330i also feels gutless when compared to a 330d too but I described to my mrs that on a back road thrash for me the 330i would be more rewarding ultimately than the 330d but she doesn't seem to understand that though so you can see why most love diesels maybe.
It's not all about outright speed though is it? I think the chap who wants to sell his RS6 summed it up nicely. Even in a TVR you get speed, but you get sheer terror. There is no way you would enter a roundabout and just arbitrarily sink your right foot to the floor on the exit without a moments consideration ... but you can with modern 4WD diesel computer added "bore-device" as I call them. the 330i also feels gutless when compared to a 330d too but I described to my mrs that on a back road thrash for me the 330i would be more rewarding ultimately than the 330d but she doesn't seem to understand that though so you can see why most love diesels maybe. I used to love my Porsche 924 ... that can't be further from "fast" if you tried. Even the S2 wasn't too quick, but the handling was fantastic. Not much kept up with it when cornering when the suspension was fettled with and vented/drilled discs were added.
My friends 330ci is a thrill to be a passenger. With an aftermarket airbox, it's really a lot of fun to throw around and hoon around the back roads. My E92 diesel was just positively dull and boring in comparison !
One of the best videos highlighting that fast alone != fun, is Chris Harris driving the 2CV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oFDacv0hc8
gizlaroc said:
If you had to only have one car, would you keep the 335d or the M3?
Or, the other option is swap both for a 340i that returns around 33mpg.
It depends where I was living. The suburbs where I am now the 335d, but somewhere like Northumberland, Wales, Scotland, The North in general then the M3. I wouldn't have theOr, the other option is swap both for a 340i that returns around 33mpg.
340i, I'm waiting for the M3 Touring x-drive diesel hybrid.
Edited by VUB on Wednesday 23 September 19:15
stuart-b said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Yes I completely agree the 330i also feels gutless when compared to a 330d too but I described to my mrs that on a back road thrash for me the 330i would be more rewarding ultimately than the 330d but she doesn't seem to understand that though so you can see why most love diesels maybe.
It's not all about outright speed though is it? I think the chap who wants to sell his RS6 summed it up nicely. Even in a TVR you get speed, but you get sheer terror. There is no way you would enter a roundabout and just arbitrarily sink your right foot to the floor on the exit without a moments consideration ... but you can with modern 4WD diesel computer added "bore-device" as I call them. the 330i also feels gutless when compared to a 330d too but I described to my mrs that on a back road thrash for me the 330i would be more rewarding ultimately than the 330d but she doesn't seem to understand that though so you can see why most love diesels maybe. I used to love my Porsche 924 ... that can't be further from "fast" if you tried. Even the S2 wasn't too quick, but the handling was fantastic. Not much kept up with it when cornering when the suspension was fettled with and vented/drilled discs were added.
My friends 330ci is a thrill to be a passenger. With an aftermarket airbox, it's really a lot of fun to throw around and hoon around the back roads. My E92 diesel was just positively dull and boring in comparison !
One of the best videos highlighting that fast alone != fun, is Chris Harris driving the 2CV
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oFDacv0hc8
I would like a go in a Porsche as they are recognised as being sweet in terms of handling and I would also fancy a Lotus for similar reasons, my father in law has a 120bhp Caterham and in terms of performance it doesn't set the world alight at all but I loved every minute of driving it for the way it made me feel.
So I do agree that for ultimate thrills power isn't necessary but lightness does seem to be a key ingredient though.
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