Do you need anything more than a 320d?
Discussion
Ares said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Agree and a Caterham or Exige are cars worth chatting about as they are exciting to drive fast or slow and are great head turners...a 640d is a tool to do a job of covering big miles with some low end shove when you want it and its talents don't go any further than that as far as I am concerned.
Again subjective. If that was a unilateral view, everyone would buy a 320d or s 520d and the 640d would sell nothing!
yonex said:
Further to that Ares you mentioned a 260HP Caterham, I think you're doing it wrong 
I built something similar and it was less of a car than when it had 190HP. A 911 is tactile in a way that escapes all
BMW's and I say that speaking as an owner of one. I think this debate referencing straight line performance is futile and without doubt the most boring part of car ownership in general.
I had a c170bhp caterham, not 260. I built something similar and it was less of a car than when it had 190HP. A 911 is tactile in a way that escapes allBMW's and I say that speaking as an owner of one. I think this debate referencing straight line performance is futile and without doubt the most boring part of car ownership in general.
I don't disagree a 911 is tactile beyond a BMW - thats the prime reason i've said you can't compare them as cars. Similarly a Caterham is tactile in a way a 911 doesn't get close to, and you can't really compare them.
Each car has it's merits, and those merits take different priorities. The 640d did everything I need out of a car better than everything else. It is far far more than just straight line performance. Do I wish it turned into a GT3 for the 5% of time I get to blat across A/B roads for the sheer hell of it? Of course. But for the rest of the time, a GT3 would be woeful, unfortunately.
jamieduff1981 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
yonex said:
Ares said:
I would possibly HAVE bought one, if it could do what mine does. Yes.
Likewise, if I didn't need to carry any luggage at all, or didn't need to use it for business, I might HAVE gone back to an Exige.
Likewise, if I didn't need to drive any journey other than for pure pleasure, I might HAVE gone back to a Caterham.
I can't see how you'd find enjoyment in an Exige or Caterham. All you are doing Is discussing drag racing with wildly different cars. I'm lost as to why you feel there is a point to make with a 640d? Standard executive mile muncher /endLikewise, if I didn't need to carry any luggage at all, or didn't need to use it for business, I might HAVE gone back to an Exige.
Likewise, if I didn't need to drive any journey other than for pure pleasure, I might HAVE gone back to a Caterham.
Ok, I'd never buy a current gen 6 series. I tried to convince myself to buy the previous petrol V10 model - but overall the 6 series is a nice car and a good choice for someone who is interested in driving but, like it or not, does have to carry stuff.
Some people are able to completely segregate family from enjoyment. Personally I find that bizarre. I may corner less aggressively with a car load but that doesn't mean we all want 320d misery any time a 3rd or 4th seat or some boot space is needed.
When a 640d is being compared to 911s I can see why the opposition gets increasingly dismissive of big powerful family cars - but the cars themselves are good bits of engineering and offer a lot more driving enjoyment than some heap of s
t like a Skoda Octavia ever will.Ares said:
.....and yet I owned an Exige for 2 years and a Caterham for 4yrs. I have no interest in drag racing.
If you think a tuned 640d is a 'standard exec mile muncher' then thats your prerogative & opinion. You are welcome to it!
I do, and i'm not alone...If you think a tuned 640d is a 'standard exec mile muncher' then thats your prerogative & opinion. You are welcome to it!
review said:
And that’s where the 6-series is brilliant. It is good-looking. It is a two-door coupé. It is stylish. And yet it rides like a hovercraft. Fit the optional £1,485 Comfort seats and it’s like driving around in a cloud. There is a button that allows you to firm everything up, and even a sub-menu in the computer that lets you choose which bits of the package you want to be sporty and which you do not. And I recommend that on day one, you glue the switch in Comfort mode and leave it there. The Sport setting just makes you uncomfortable for no real gain in terms of handling.
What we have here, then, is a car that doesn’t just get through the EU’s goalposts but also goalposts that no other car maker has spotted. Goalposts for people who want good looks, comfort and economy.
Nothing wrong with the car at all, I like them, but I wouldn't be proposing a drag race or talking of it in terms of anything outside what I have already mentioned. What we have here, then, is a car that doesn’t just get through the EU’s goalposts but also goalposts that no other car maker has spotted. Goalposts for people who want good looks, comfort and economy.
RobM77 said:
jamieduff1981 said:
I dislike diesels and BMWs in equal measure, but I think we're being a little harsh on the 640d.
Some people are able to completely segregate family from enjoyment. Personally I find that bizarre. I may corner less aggressively with a car load but that doesn't mean we all want 320d misery any time a 3rd or 4th seat or some boot space is needed.
That's something that's always interested me, and something I mentioned on another thread on manuals vs autos. A lot of my friends own cars like Caterhams and Elises for weekends and sunny days and seem quite content with something dull in every measure for every day. Like you I've never been like that; I want to enjoy driving every time I drive a car, and given that I spend 10-12 hours a week in my daily driver, I have to enjoy driving it. Just going back to that other group though that compartmentalise their driving passions, think about that phrase "dull in every measure" that I used to describe their daily drivers, because a car that you consider dull by your measures may actually be really enjoyable for some with their measures, and that's the case with the 320d. Given that it has the same chassis as the 335i, 330i etc, and the same mechanical layout as plenty of sports cars, it's not dull in every measure is it? it's just dull by your reckoning because of the engine. For people like me mainly interested in the chassis, it's therefore not dull at all. I can still do everything that I enjoyed in my 330ci, 328i and 325i in the 320d - the cornering and handling is just the same, and that's the bit I enjoy. The only bit the engine's for is for accelerating in straight lines, and not only do I spend a vanishingly small amount of my driving time accelerating in a straight line, the act of accelerating is a long way down my list of enjoyable things about cars.Some people are able to completely segregate family from enjoyment. Personally I find that bizarre. I may corner less aggressively with a car load but that doesn't mean we all want 320d misery any time a 3rd or 4th seat or some boot space is needed.
Mine, especially after the engine and suspension changes, is a great car. It's a highly enjoyable place to be on any road and in any traffic jam.
Ares said:
Exactly. Alas, most don't car how my car, or any diesel really drives, it is by default, dreadful. Witness the supposed car-nut that said he would rather drive a 1l Micra than a 1000bhp lightweight diesel. Blinkers.
Ok so the micra was maybe a step too far but I have zero desire to drive one of these.
jamieduff1981 said:
You'd think so.
As far as DDs go there are certainly far worse choices than a 320d. I don't need the MPGs so I don't have one.
Rob's right that it's better to have the aspects important to you in a DD.
It's great that people can compartmentalise driving and be happy with a Laguna or whatever most of the time. That's not me though.
As far as DDs go there are certainly far worse choices than a 320d. I don't need the MPGs so I don't have one.
Rob's right that it's better to have the aspects important to you in a DD.
It's great that people can compartmentalise driving and be happy with a Laguna or whatever most of the time. That's not me though.
Me neither. It'd be quite a useful skill to have actually - I could drive a Toyota Yaris every day, save loads of money and then keep my 2-Eleven for track days and weekends. Like you though, I couldn't survive like that, for me it'd be like eating cheap tasteless food all week so I could afford to cook a lovely meal at weekends - no chance! Thankfully for me though and my bank balance, as I've got older and tried more cars, I've discovered that it's the chassis I really like, so I can ditch the big engine and expensive big tyres etc and get just as much fun out of a frugal version of a car that in the past I'd have owned in its full on performance spec. I'm a GT86 type person basically. It's a shame that most PHers need to be handed that FE/RWD layout in a coupé body (like the GT86) to believe that it's interesting to drive - I suppose that's the market that BMW and Mercedes aim their coupés at, which for non M and AMG versions are really just rebodied saloons.charltjr said:
I hope you're not suggesting that different people can have differing priorities and different ways of enjoying cars?
This is PH - there must be a single homogeneous right/wrong answer!
This is PH - there must be a single homogeneous right/wrong answer!
So true!yonex said:
Ares said:
.....and yet I owned an Exige for 2 years and a Caterham for 4yrs. I have no interest in drag racing.
If you think a tuned 640d is a 'standard exec mile muncher' then thats your prerogative & opinion. You are welcome to it!
I do, and i'm not alone...If you think a tuned 640d is a 'standard exec mile muncher' then thats your prerogative & opinion. You are welcome to it!
review said:
And that’s where the 6-series is brilliant. It is good-looking. It is a two-door coupé. It is stylish. And yet it rides like a hovercraft. Fit the optional £1,485 Comfort seats and it’s like driving around in a cloud. There is a button that allows you to firm everything up, and even a sub-menu in the computer that lets you choose which bits of the package you want to be sporty and which you do not. And I recommend that on day one, you glue the switch in Comfort mode and leave it there. The Sport setting just makes you uncomfortable for no real gain in terms of handling.
What we have here, then, is a car that doesn’t just get through the EU’s goalposts but also goalposts that no other car maker has spotted. Goalposts for people who want good looks, comfort and economy.
Nothing wrong with the car at all, I like them, but I wouldn't be proposing a drag race or talking of it in terms of anything outside what I have already mentioned. What we have here, then, is a car that doesn’t just get through the EU’s goalposts but also goalposts that no other car maker has spotted. Goalposts for people who want good looks, comfort and economy.
But for every one of Clarkson's comedic diatribes, there are others that will eschew his criticisms:
EVO said:
It always feels like a big car and it’s ‘sporting’ rather than genuinely sporty, but it goes like stink, sounds terrific and can be hustled along at a terrific rate of knots. Better still, it has balance and doesn’t seem to understeer at all, and the excellent stability control keeping everything tidy and driving forwards. Toggling between the different driving modes - ECO PRO, Comfort+, Comfort, Sport and Sport+ - should change its character markedly, yet the 6-series is comfortable, effortless and well balanced in all.
Somehow the Gran Coupe feels more agile and more fluid than the two-door on which it’s based. It’s a lot more fun than a 5-Series, too. The ride is very supple, refinement is excellent, plus it’s got plenty of room in the back and the boot is massive.
The BMW 640d Gran Coupe feels more special than its two natural rivals, the Mercedes-Benz CLS350 CDI and Audi A7 BiTDI Quattro.
Somehow the Gran Coupe feels more agile and more fluid than the two-door on which it’s based. It’s a lot more fun than a 5-Series, too. The ride is very supple, refinement is excellent, plus it’s got plenty of room in the back and the boot is massive.
The BMW 640d Gran Coupe feels more special than its two natural rivals, the Mercedes-Benz CLS350 CDI and Audi A7 BiTDI Quattro.
Autocar said:
The team of design boss Adrian van Hooydonk has, to these eyes at least, delivered one of BMW’s best-looking models in years. The proportions are spot on, giving the 6-series Gran Coupé a truly elegant appearance that is sure to find wide appeal, and not only from existing BMW customers.
Based on a unique rear-wheel drive platform, its wheelbase is 113mm longer than that of the 6-series coupé and convertible.
Inside, there is the sweeping dashboard from the two-door 6-series, along with an altered centre console. It’s all very high on perceived quality.
The diesel is perfectly suited to the BMW’s sporting brief. It has huge low-end shove, a terrifically flexible nature, highly refined part-throttle cruising qualities, an alluring full-throttle exhaust note and, for a diesel, a sufficiently eager top end to make it fun to work hard.
Doing justice to the 640d Gran Coupé’s superb engine is its standard eight-speed automatic gearbox, which is smooth and quick to react, both in automatic and manual modes.
What really sets the 6-series Gran Coupé apart, though, are its highly polished dynamic traits. There is an engaging fluidity to the handling that allows it to rise above the already highly competent 5-series for outright driver appeal. The steering is well weighted and quite direct. The chassis, meanwhile, possesses wonderful balance, which gives it tremendously eager cornering and a neutral on-the-limit character. With no fewer than five different driving modes offered by BMW’s driving experience function, the new saloon can be set up for a wide range of conditions and driving styles.
The ride is characterised by firm damping, but there is sufficient compliancy in Comfort mode, even on optional runflat tyres, to ensure that coarse surfaces don’t spoil the otherwise exceptional refinement. On the motorway, the new BMW delivers rock-solid longitudinal stability and the sort of relaxed cruising qualities that will make it an exceptional long-haul proposition.
In short, the 6-series Gran Coupé is a belter – better to look at and drive than the 5-series, if not possessing quite the same level of practicality and load-carrying ability. With a sporting interior, it also feels special to be in.
Based on a unique rear-wheel drive platform, its wheelbase is 113mm longer than that of the 6-series coupé and convertible.
Inside, there is the sweeping dashboard from the two-door 6-series, along with an altered centre console. It’s all very high on perceived quality.
The diesel is perfectly suited to the BMW’s sporting brief. It has huge low-end shove, a terrifically flexible nature, highly refined part-throttle cruising qualities, an alluring full-throttle exhaust note and, for a diesel, a sufficiently eager top end to make it fun to work hard.
Doing justice to the 640d Gran Coupé’s superb engine is its standard eight-speed automatic gearbox, which is smooth and quick to react, both in automatic and manual modes.
What really sets the 6-series Gran Coupé apart, though, are its highly polished dynamic traits. There is an engaging fluidity to the handling that allows it to rise above the already highly competent 5-series for outright driver appeal. The steering is well weighted and quite direct. The chassis, meanwhile, possesses wonderful balance, which gives it tremendously eager cornering and a neutral on-the-limit character. With no fewer than five different driving modes offered by BMW’s driving experience function, the new saloon can be set up for a wide range of conditions and driving styles.
The ride is characterised by firm damping, but there is sufficient compliancy in Comfort mode, even on optional runflat tyres, to ensure that coarse surfaces don’t spoil the otherwise exceptional refinement. On the motorway, the new BMW delivers rock-solid longitudinal stability and the sort of relaxed cruising qualities that will make it an exceptional long-haul proposition.
In short, the 6-series Gran Coupé is a belter – better to look at and drive than the 5-series, if not possessing quite the same level of practicality and load-carrying ability. With a sporting interior, it also feels special to be in.
Fastdruid said:
Ares said:
Exactly. Alas, most don't car how my car, or any diesel really drives, it is by default, dreadful. Witness the supposed car-nut that said he would rather drive a 1l Micra than a 1000bhp lightweight diesel. Blinkers.
Ok so the micra was maybe a step too far but I have zero desire to drive one of these.Ares said:
The oracle that is Jeremy Clarkson by any chance? He that openly hates BMWs....until he drove an M6 GC in Australia and described it as possibly the best saloon car ever??
But for every one of Clarkson's comedic diatribes, there are others that will eschew his criticisms
Who are you trying to convince, me, others or possibly yourself? There's just no point to continuing this, on one hand you can have a polished GT car which carries a good deal of kit effortlessly across continents. On the other you can have a focused drivers car. IMO the 640d is the first option, why exactly would BMW even bother with the M6, in fact you have done it again, comparing the 640d to an M6!But for every one of Clarkson's comedic diatribes, there are others that will eschew his criticisms
I am happy you love your car, that's great. But these utterly crazy comparisons (997, 996, M6) make it look as if you are a bit insecure about the choice and need to justify it, you just don't. Nobody is saying it's a bad car and tbh it's probably more capable than a lot of the cars people drive. Just enjoy it
Ares said:
Fastdruid said:
Ares said:
Exactly. Alas, most don't car how my car, or any diesel really drives, it is by default, dreadful. Witness the supposed car-nut that said he would rather drive a 1l Micra than a 1000bhp lightweight diesel. Blinkers.
Ok so the micra was maybe a step too far but I have zero desire to drive one of these.Good (and scary) fun around deserted wet roundabouts too.
Ares said:
Exactly. Alas, most don't car how my car, or any diesel really drives, it is by default, dreadful. Witness the supposed car-nut that said he would rather drive a 1l Micra than a 1000bhp lightweight diesel. Blinkers.
Seriously though you said "you would rather drive an asthmatic 1l Micra with 100hp per tonne than a 1250bhp per tonne diesel, just to avoid diesel"An asthmatic 1l micra *is* a horrible car but it is less horrible an engine than every diesel I've ever driven, besides there are no "lightweight diesels" as you are making stuff up, there are no 1250bhp per ton diesels, not even 200hp per ton. The very very best one I can find is the 2015 335d at 181BHP per ton (yes I know you can remap them to get better but it's still not going to get 1700hp extra hp is it?) While I'm sure you can find some to top that (I actually figure yours as remapped is better) but it's not going to be by a massive amount
Hell even what is possibly the most performance diesel there is, the R15 only makes 655hp per ton (R18 is less at ~590hp per ton). And although I would give that one a go, I'd be thinking about a petrol LMP car.
Fastdruid said:
Ares said:
Exactly. Alas, most don't car how my car, or any diesel really drives, it is by default, dreadful. Witness the supposed car-nut that said he would rather drive a 1l Micra than a 1000bhp lightweight diesel. Blinkers.
Seriously though you said "you would rather drive an asthmatic 1l Micra with 100hp per tonne than a 1250bhp per tonne diesel, just to avoid diesel"An asthmatic 1l micra *is* a horrible car but it is less horrible an engine than every diesel I've ever driven, besides there are no "lightweight diesels" as you are making stuff up, there are no 1250bhp per ton diesels, not even 200hp per ton. The very very best one I can find is the 2015 335d at 181BHP per ton (yes I know you can remap them to get better but it's still not going to get 1700hp extra hp is it?) While I'm sure you can find some to top that (I actually figure yours as remapped is better) but it's not going to be by a massive amount
Hell even what is possibly the most performance diesel there is, the R15 only makes 655hp per ton (R18 is less at ~590hp per ton). And although I would give that one a go, I'd be thinking about a petrol LMP car.
We had a similar discussion on the last FWD vs RWD thread. When my wife bought her current car, a 2007 FN2 Civic Type R, we also test drove a few others, which included a non M-Sport 120d (new shape), an M-Sport 116d (again, new shape) and a MINI. What caused sparks to fly on that thread was that out of those four cars, my favourite to drive was the M-Sport 116d, because I liked the handling the best. Yes, it was extremely slow, but I would have lived with that because of the way it drove down our B road test route. The Civic has by far the best engine and gearchange, but ultimately I find that I don't get on with its front wheel drive handling or the way its controls work (non linear - oversensitive initially). That's because handling is my priority. My wife's priorities are for a car that feels responsive and darty, goes quickly and makes a nice sound, so the FN2 CTR was a natural choice and the best choice for her. Everyone's different.
yonex said:
Ares said:
The oracle that is Jeremy Clarkson by any chance? He that openly hates BMWs....until he drove an M6 GC in Australia and described it as possibly the best saloon car ever??
But for every one of Clarkson's comedic diatribes, there are others that will eschew his criticisms
Who are you trying to convince, me, others or possibly yourself? There's just no point to continuing this, on one hand you can have a polished GT car which carries a good deal of kit effortlessly across continents. On the other you can have a focused drivers car. IMO the 640d is the first option, why exactly would BMW even bother with the M6, in fact you have done it again, comparing the 640d to an M6!But for every one of Clarkson's comedic diatribes, there are others that will eschew his criticisms
I am happy you love your car, that's great. But these utterly crazy comparisons (997, 996, M6) make it look as if you are a bit insecure about the choice and need to justify it, you just don't. Nobody is saying it's a bad car and tbh it's probably more capable than a lot of the cars people drive. Just enjoy it
RobM77 said:
Fastdruid said:
Ares said:
Exactly. Alas, most don't car how my car, or any diesel really drives, it is by default, dreadful. Witness the supposed car-nut that said he would rather drive a 1l Micra than a 1000bhp lightweight diesel. Blinkers.
Seriously though you said "you would rather drive an asthmatic 1l Micra with 100hp per tonne than a 1250bhp per tonne diesel, just to avoid diesel"An asthmatic 1l micra *is* a horrible car but it is less horrible an engine than every diesel I've ever driven, besides there are no "lightweight diesels" as you are making stuff up, there are no 1250bhp per ton diesels, not even 200hp per ton. The very very best one I can find is the 2015 335d at 181BHP per ton (yes I know you can remap them to get better but it's still not going to get 1700hp extra hp is it?) While I'm sure you can find some to top that (I actually figure yours as remapped is better) but it's not going to be by a massive amount
Hell even what is possibly the most performance diesel there is, the R15 only makes 655hp per ton (R18 is less at ~590hp per ton). And although I would give that one a go, I'd be thinking about a petrol LMP car.
We had a similar discussion on the last FWD vs RWD thread. When my wife bought her current car, a 2007 FN2 Civic Type R, we also test drove a few others, which included a non M-Sport 120d (new shape), an M-Sport 116d (again, new shape) and a MINI. What caused sparks to fly on that thread was that out of those four cars, my favourite to drive was the M-Sport 116d, because I liked the handling the best. Yes, it was extremely slow, but I would have lived with that because of the way it drove down our B road test route. The Civic has by far the best engine and gearchange, but ultimately I find that I don't get on with its front wheel drive handling or the way its controls work (non linear - oversensitive initially). That's because handling is my priority. My wife's priorities are for a car that feels responsive and darty, goes quickly and makes a nice sound, so the FN2 CTR was a natural choice and the best choice for her. Everyone's different.
I cannot stand the way they make their power, doesn't matter how many hp they make. I hate driving them but to Ares I "need my head looking at" for disliking them.
Fastdruid said:
Ares said:
Exactly. Alas, most don't car how my car, or any diesel really drives, it is by default, dreadful. Witness the supposed car-nut that said he would rather drive a 1l Micra than a 1000bhp lightweight diesel. Blinkers.
Seriously though you said "you would rather drive an asthmatic 1l Micra with 100hp per tonne than a 1250bhp per tonne diesel, just to avoid diesel"An asthmatic 1l micra *is* a horrible car but it is less horrible an engine than every diesel I've ever driven, besides there are no "lightweight diesels" as you are making stuff up, there are no 1250bhp per ton diesels, not even 200hp per ton. The very very best one I can find is the 2015 335d at 181BHP per ton (yes I know you can remap them to get better but it's still not going to get 1700hp extra hp is it?) While I'm sure you can find some to top that (I actually figure yours as remapped is better) but it's not going to be by a massive amount
Hell even what is possibly the most performance diesel there is, the R15 only makes 655hp per ton (R18 is less at ~590hp per ton). And although I would give that one a go, I'd be thinking about a petrol LMP car.
Dave200 said:
You are dreadful at objective discussion, particularly about your own car. You just can't resist defending/promoting it to the death - why so insecure?
No insecurity on anything, let alone a car. But if you don't discuss cars on a car forum.....are we missing the point?Discussion. [n]. An extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic; An exchange of views on some topic.
Ares said:
Dave200 said:
You are dreadful at objective discussion, particularly about your own car. You just can't resist defending/promoting it to the death - why so insecure?
No insecurity on anything, let alone a car. But if you don't discuss cars on a car forum.....are we missing the point?Discussion. [n]. An extended communication (often interactive) dealing with some particular topic; An exchange of views on some topic.
This "discussion" (like many others in which you participate) is being spoiled by a broken record who cannot stop talking about how 'great' his car is.
A quick check shows you having made more than 10% of the posts in this "discussion". Please shut up and accept that others might have a view also.
Edited by Dave200 on Thursday 23 July 17:13
Dave200 said:
Objectivity. [n]. The state or quality of being true even outside of a subject's individual biases, interpretations, feelings, and imaginings.
This "discussion" is being spoiled by a broken record who cannot stop talking about how 'great' his car is.
I apologise. Feel free to ignore posts you feel are spoiling your experience. This "discussion" is being spoiled by a broken record who cannot stop talking about how 'great' his car is.
I'll tow the party line. I drive a s
t, rattly, slow, smoking, stheap that I should admit only gets bought by those obsessed with fuel consumption. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff