Can Alfa ever return to form- do we care?

[rijmij99]

trashbat said:

Alfahorn said:

They have the ability it comes down to the desire of Fiat to invest in the brand.

And on that note, there's €1bn allocated to Alfa product development from 2012 to 2014, apparently.

I'll go back to what I said earlier about the investor material and expand a little...

Mid-price volume selling in Europe is dead. This is the sort of stuff that Renault, PSA Citroen, Opel/Vauxhall do, and they're all fked. Fiat's CEO, Sergio Marchionne, decided that there were two options for FGA (that is: Fiat, Lancia, Alfa, Maserati, Ferrari):

1. Scale back production to deal with reduced demand, but less product = less sales = less product etc.

or

2. To match the polarised market, split into budget lifestyle (500, Panda) and premium (Alfa, Maser, etc)

He chose the latter. Basically Alfa are now key to FGA's success, although that is a global strategy rather than a Euro-centric one. It really is premium or bust.

Edited by trashbat on Sunday 3rd February 17:49

I completely agree with all of that. Everyone is going premium however so it will be interesting to see what happens. The only trump card FGA has is the "relaxed" employment opportunities in Italy compared to France and Germany. With the influx of comparatively cheap, well made Korean manufacturers practically all the old world manufacturers are heading premium, Ford, Citroen with their DS line, GM derived tosh and to an extent the Japanese offerings also, have you seen the price of a Auris? As I said in my previous post Sergio is the man to pull Alfa out of the mire, BUT I still think they need a level of autonomy afforded to Ferrari. I'm buying a new car next year once my finance is paid up and I've already driven all the competitors to the MiTo and it is by far the best all round package offered at its price point.

[otolith]

Hoygo said:

And also Alfa fanboys with this heart soul bks annoy me as much as V-tec yo fanboys.

Don't forget the German dashboard licking community.

If you like the styling on your mediocre mechanicals bland and conservative, go to VW or Audi. If not, try Alfa. If you can't decide, there's always SEAT.

[Alfahorn]

rijmij99 said:

trashbat said:

Alfahorn said:

They have the ability it comes down to the desire of Fiat to invest in the brand.

And on that note, there's €1bn allocated to Alfa product development from 2012 to 2014, apparently.

I'll go back to what I said earlier about the investor material and expand a little...

Mid-price volume selling in Europe is dead. This is the sort of stuff that Renault, PSA Citroen, Opel/Vauxhall do, and they're all fked. Fiat's CEO, Sergio Marchionne, decided that there were two options for FGA (that is: Fiat, Lancia, Alfa, Maserati, Ferrari):

1. Scale back production to deal with reduced demand, but less product = less sales = less product etc.

or

2. To match the polarised market, split into budget lifestyle (500, Panda) and premium (Alfa, Maser, etc)

He chose the latter. Basically Alfa are now key to FGA's success, although that is a global strategy rather than a Euro-centric one. It really is premium or bust.

Edited by trashbat on Sunday 3rd February 17:49

I completely agree with all of that. Everyone is going premium however so it will be interesting to see what happens. The only trump card FGA has is the "relaxed" employment opportunities in Italy compared to France and Germany. With the influx of comparatively cheap, well made Korean manufacturers practically all the old world manufacturers are heading premium, Ford, Citroen with their DS line, GM derived tosh and to an extent the Japanese offerings also, have you seen the price of a Auris? As I said in my previous post Sergio is the man to pull Alfa out of the mire, BUT I still think they need a level of autonomy afforded to Ferrari. I'm buying a new car next year once my finance is paid up and I've already driven all the competitors to the MiTo and it is by far the best all round package offered at its price point.

The Mito is a cracking car, however someone will come along and tell you your talking bks in a minute. It's an unreliable piece of st, blah, blah, blah.........

[rijmij99]

Ha! yeah and every VW/Audi/BMW/Merc ever made is still running and never gone wrong in any way ever

[trashbat]

rijmij99 said:

I completely agree with all of that. Everyone is going premium however so it will be interesting to see what happens. The only trump card FGA has is the "relaxed" employment opportunities in Italy compared to France and Germany. With the influx of comparatively cheap, well made Korean manufacturers practically all the old world manufacturers are heading premium, Ford, Citroen with their DS line, GM derived tosh and to an extent the Japanese offerings also, have you seen the price of a Auris? As I said in my previous post Sergio is the man to pull Alfa out of the mire, BUT I still think they need a level of autonomy afforded to Ferrari. I'm buying a new car next year once my finance is paid up and I've already driven all the competitors to the MiTo and it is by far the best all round package offered at its price point.

The trump card is in-house breadth IMO; Chrysler and Maserati, each in a different way. If for example Citroen want to do big Mercedes-esque limousines (not that they necessarily should), they don't have any platforms to leverage, and have to buy, borrow or make it from scratch - which might be demonstrated in their tie up with GM. That's the main reason why the 159 failed economically; a very expensive car to develop, since none of the costs were shared with other significant cars, and then for similar reasons a fairly expensive car to build as well.

I think FGA are *very* well placed to do the economic and manufacturing aspects of their plan, and it's good that they have one, since most of their rivals apparently don't. This includes VW Group, by the way, who are currently allowed to run a ruinous business in Europe thanks to their Chinese profits. Whether it's quite the right idea long term, and whether FGA can do the softer brand aspects, I'm less sure. Interesting times though!

[trashbat]

On a briefer, more petrolly note - Ferrari slated for more Alfa involvement, announcement within 30 days apparently: http://www.autoedizione.com/ferrari-working-on-new...

Auto Edizione are a pretty good source for Alfa news, incidentally.

[Alfahorn]

rijmij99 said:

Ha! yeah and every VW/Audi/BMW/Merc ever made is still running and never gone wrong in any way ever

[RobM77]

robsa said:

RobM77 said:

every modern (post 75) ALFA I've ever driven has been a hugely nose heavy heap of understeering dull handling.

You see, I don't get this. In comparison to what, exactly? I came from an RX8 which, I'm sure you will agree, is a superb handling car, to a 147, and I was genuinely surprised by how well it handled. Probably the best handling FWD car I have ever driven, including the Mk1 Focus, which I have always highly rated.

I'm prepared to hear if you can suggest a FWD car which blows it out the water at a similar price point, but somehow I don't think you will be able to.

Of course we would all like to see ALFA go RWD but let's be sensible, it's not going to happen is it? And has the brand been diluted? I think diminished would be a more appropriate word!

Just to put my quote in context, I did precede that with a lot of praise for Alfa! (because they get everything else spot on). However, you're right in what you infer - the main problem is indeed FWD, which of course comes from platform sharing. I don't for one second believe that Alfa Romeo, with their long and illustrious history and undoubted style and design flair, would choose to make FWD cars in an ideal world; they're just forced to if they want to compete with the competition at their chosen price point. FWD cars just have so much mass over the front wheels the handling is just never balanced (sorry everyone, but there's no arguing that if you look at the definition of 'balance' and then compare the mechanical layout of a Mercedes or BMW with a modern FWD car such as the latest Alfas). That said, if driven the right way then FWD cars can be entertaining down a B road. As for which cars are better, it depends what you mean by similar price point - do you mean new or secondhand? How about the Renault Clio (any model), Ford Ka (any model), Peugeot 106 GTi, VW Golf GTi, Integra Type R, Peugeot 205 GTi, Peugeot 306 GTi, VW Corrado, Accord Type R, Primera GT or MINI. Those all handle way better than any Alfa I've driven or been in. Any of those at the price or age you were thinking of? I drove a Fiat Punto a while ago, and it seemed to exhibit the same problems as most Alfas - quite keen to turn in below the limit, but at the limit it just collapses into understeer. As much as I'm not a fan of Fords above the Ka, for many reasons, I think the Fiesta and Mondeo handle better than most Alfas, certainly in their latest guises. That said, there's never any need to go FWD if handling is your priority. The BMW 1, 3, and 5 series all drive beautifully, as do most Mercs, the MX5, Elise, VX220, MR2 and RX8 (I'll assume the one I drove had something wrong with it, as people on here have suggested) - that covers everything from mile muncher with a huge boot to tiny nimble sports car.

[paulmoonraker]

Fantuzzi said:

paulmoonraker said:

Fantuzzi said:

Im surprised by the 'fiat st boxes' remarks.

Alfa are making a sub 900kg focused sports car with RWD, mid engined layout and a CF tub. Oh and its estimated power to weight will be far more than its rival the cayman S so will most likely be quite a bit quicker in terms of 0-100km, 200km.


How much more PH do you want Alfa to get?

How much will it cost?

Good luck Alfa taking on the Cayman!

Well, lets think at its most expensive its 50kish, £49,783 is the cayman S,so cayman money, its 850-900kg, which is rather slight compared to 1350kg so its more Elise S weight, and hopefully (I dont know how they could fk it up!)elise handling.

Its bhp per tonne given the state of tune is suggested at 250bhp, a lot less than 325bhp of the Cayman, although as the BHP/tonne shows its rather got the porsche licked,

Cayman S - 240
4C - 294

Im no Alfa fiend, I love cars, all sorts form every where, I would take a 904 over a TZ1, becuase its more my thing. It just so happens Alfa have done a lot of rather special cars, yes they have wavered lately but jeez, theyve been around winning races and making top sports cars since the bloody 20's so youd expect a level of flux!

The SZ was meant to be sublime, if somewhat aesthetically 'interesting' (I love it though) and that was the 90s. Not bad for an old boy...

Personally, I think it's a risky approach taking on the Cayman. Sure, the 4C will be lighter and it may even be sharper, but the vast majority of the public won't care and would much rather the Porsche badge. Perhaps it will be track focused, but then you have Caterhams etc to contend with, and they are a lot cheaper and probably better. Us petrol heads might buy one, but they will need to move in volume for the company to invest longer term in these types of car.

An entirely different company with different problems, but the 4C could well be Alfas equivalent of the Lotus Evora.

[trashbat]

In the context of Alfa, I've never quite understood the RWD fixation. What about Audi and Volvo for starters?

[DrTre]

Can they return to form? I don't know, but I hope so.
Do I care? Even as a non-Alfaphile, yes I bloody do.

Fewer manufacturers is A Bad Thing, regardless of whether you like, deride, belittle or simply hate a manufacturers output.

As said, the "heart/emotion" spiel is a load of bks but what isn't a load of bks is that people have differing tastes and not everyone buys with a completely rational POV or reason. A Ghibli 2 is likely my next car although the rational choice would be an M3 of some kind...it's a much, much better car in all respects but just doesn't remotely flick my switch. It's irrational, I genuinely don't know why, and asking me is like asking me why blancmange is cat...it's not a question that makes sense to me.

Alfa falls into that area...as did Saab, as do Citroen as do a wealth of other manufacturers that are dead or sadly on there way to being (not that Alfa/Lancia are in that group as mentioned).

Vive la difference, or whatever it is in Italian.

[RobM77]

paulmoonraker said:

Fantuzzi said:

paulmoonraker said:

Fantuzzi said:

Im surprised by the 'fiat st boxes' remarks.

Alfa are making a sub 900kg focused sports car with RWD, mid engined layout and a CF tub. Oh and its estimated power to weight will be far more than its rival the cayman S so will most likely be quite a bit quicker in terms of 0-100km, 200km.


How much more PH do you want Alfa to get?

How much will it cost?

Good luck Alfa taking on the Cayman!

Well, lets think at its most expensive its 50kish, £49,783 is the cayman S,so cayman money, its 850-900kg, which is rather slight compared to 1350kg so its more Elise S weight, and hopefully (I dont know how they could fk it up!)elise handling.

Its bhp per tonne given the state of tune is suggested at 250bhp, a lot less than 325bhp of the Cayman, although as the BHP/tonne shows its rather got the porsche licked,

Cayman S - 240
4C - 294

Im no Alfa fiend, I love cars, all sorts form every where, I would take a 904 over a TZ1, becuase its more my thing. It just so happens Alfa have done a lot of rather special cars, yes they have wavered lately but jeez, theyve been around winning races and making top sports cars since the bloody 20's so youd expect a level of flux!

The SZ was meant to be sublime, if somewhat aesthetically 'interesting' (I love it though) and that was the 90s. Not bad for an old boy...

Personally, I think it's a risky approach taking on the Cayman. Sure, the 4C will be lighter and it may even be sharper, but the vast majority of the public won't care and would much rather the Porsche badge. Perhaps it will be track focused, but then you have Caterhams etc to contend with, and they are a lot cheaper and probably better. Us petrol heads might buy one, but they will need to move in volume for the company to invest longer term in these types of car.

An entirely different company with different problems, but the 4C could well be Alfas equivalent of the Lotus Evora.

It's a good point. I've driven three Caymans of different specs though and whist they're great cars, there's certainly a lot that can be improved on. Sure, the engine design and layout are as perfect as you're ever going to get, as is the general concept and refinement. However, the driving position could be a lot more accomodating for different sized people, the ride could be a lot better, as could the throttle response, steering feel and the steering linearity. You're right to bring up the Evora though - I drove a new 'S' the other day and, whilst it didn't have anywhere near as good a layout and engine as the Cayman, all of those negatives above were not only eliminated, but mastered too - it was a truly cracking car and I rate it much higher than the Cayman. I hope perhaps that if Alfa deliver with the 4C then they can support poor sales of the 4C with their bread and butter in the 4 seater saloon/hatchback sector, unlike Lotus of course, who can't fall back on that

[paulmoonraker]

RobM77 said:

paulmoonraker said:

Fantuzzi said:

paulmoonraker said:

Fantuzzi said:

Im surprised by the 'fiat st boxes' remarks.

Alfa are making a sub 900kg focused sports car with RWD, mid engined layout and a CF tub. Oh and its estimated power to weight will be far more than its rival the cayman S so will most likely be quite a bit quicker in terms of 0-100km, 200km.


How much more PH do you want Alfa to get?

How much will it cost?

Good luck Alfa taking on the Cayman!

Well, lets think at its most expensive its 50kish, £49,783 is the cayman S,so cayman money, its 850-900kg, which is rather slight compared to 1350kg so its more Elise S weight, and hopefully (I dont know how they could fk it up!)elise handling.

Its bhp per tonne given the state of tune is suggested at 250bhp, a lot less than 325bhp of the Cayman, although as the BHP/tonne shows its rather got the porsche licked,

Cayman S - 240
4C - 294

Im no Alfa fiend, I love cars, all sorts form every where, I would take a 904 over a TZ1, becuase its more my thing. It just so happens Alfa have done a lot of rather special cars, yes they have wavered lately but jeez, theyve been around winning races and making top sports cars since the bloody 20's so youd expect a level of flux!

The SZ was meant to be sublime, if somewhat aesthetically 'interesting' (I love it though) and that was the 90s. Not bad for an old boy...

Personally, I think it's a risky approach taking on the Cayman. Sure, the 4C will be lighter and it may even be sharper, but the vast majority of the public won't care and would much rather the Porsche badge. Perhaps it will be track focused, but then you have Caterhams etc to contend with, and they are a lot cheaper and probably better. Us petrol heads might buy one, but they will need to move in volume for the company to invest longer term in these types of car.

An entirely different company with different problems, but the 4C could well be Alfas equivalent of the Lotus Evora.

It's a good point. I've driven three Caymans of different specs though and whist they're great cars, there's certainly a lot that can be improved on. Sure, the engine design and layout are as perfect as you're ever going to get, as is the general concept and refinement. However, the driving position could be a lot more accomodating for different sized people, the ride could be a lot better, as could the throttle response, steering feel and the steering linearity. You're right to bring up the Evora though - I drove a new 'S' the other day and, whilst it didn't have anywhere near as good a layout and engine as the Cayman, all of those negatives above were not only eliminated, but mastered too - it was a truly cracking car and I rate it much higher than the Cayman. I hope perhaps that if Alfa deliver with the 4C then they can support poor sales of the 4C with their bread and butter in the 4 seater saloon/hatchback sector, unlike Lotus of course, who can't fall back on that

I had a Cayman S and agree with a few of your points - the ride was harsh on 19's, without sports chrono the throttle isn't instant, and actually I found the car a bit sterile in terms of involvement.

Let's see what the outcome is. It could well excite very much like the BRZ/GT86 has (and these are starting to appear on the roads so are selling). Actually, I hope it does...

[RobM77]

so do I!

[northwest monkey]

DanielSan said:

Alfa need to go back to how they were and release one or two interesting sports cars/coupes.

This might be sacrilege, but do Alfa have anything to actually go back to in terms of how they were?

I can agree that some of their older (50s era) models are exceptionally pretty, but a lot of the more recent stuff is, well, a bit st. They do have some pretty cars (155 was good looking for a saloon & the GTV was & still is a beautiful car), but they never seem as good as their rivals. For every car they make / have made in the last 10 years, there is always somewhere else you would rather spend your money. A lot of the problems have admittedly been down to a woeful dealer network, but for me I can't see them ever returning to form as I don't think they have ever had it.

Doomed in the UK IMHO.

[Alfahorn]

DrTre said:

Can they return to form? I don't know, but I hope so.
Do I care? Even as a non-Alfaphile, yes I bloody do.

Fewer manufacturers is A Bad Thing, regardless of whether you like, deride, belittle or simply hate a manufacturers output.

As said, the "heart/emotion" spiel is a load of bks but what isn't a load of bks is that people have differing tastes and not everyone buys with a completely rational POV or reason. A Ghibli 2 is likely my next car although the rational choice would be an M3 of some kind...it's a much, much better car in all respects but just doesn't remotely flick my switch. It's irrational, I genuinely don't know why, and asking me is like asking me why blancmange is cat...it's not a question that makes sense to me.

Alfa falls into that area...as did Saab, as do Citroen as do a wealth of other manufacturers that are dead or sadly on there way to being (not that Alfa/Lancia are in that group as mentioned).

Vive la difference, or whatever it is in Italian.

I agree 100% with that.

Alfa has fascinated me for years. The history and heritage of this once great company. When I get in my Alfa I just feel happy, can't truly explain why. As much as anything else, I like the fact it stands out as being different. I had a 1 series BMW for a couple weeks last year, if was quite good but I just didn't connect with it and couldn't wait to get back in to an Alfa.

[C36 Nico]

I think the problem for me with the CURRENT alfa company is the lack of.... what used to make alfa great.
Everything seems to be a nod back to those forlorn times, and alfistas swallow it head first - while forking out for a front wheel drive 4-cylindre turbo stbox with some nice leather stiching.

There seem to be very little of expanding on what used to MAKE alfa great, and more on reminding people what alfa used to be all about while taking peoples hard-earned for their current generic offerings..

I am sorry if this post offends some alfa owners on here.
What was the last Alfa RWD production car? The 75 or the 155? 155 was FWD wasnt it?
For me then, The 75 was the last proper alfa.

[Alfahorn]

C36 Nico said:

I think the problem for me with the CURRENT alfa company is the lack of.... what used to make alfa great.
Everything seems to be a nod back to those forlorn times, and alfistas swallow it head first - while forking out for a front wheel drive 4-cylindre turbo stbox with some nice leather stiching.

There seem to be very little of expanding on what used to MAKE alfa great, and more on reminding people what alfa used to be all about while taking peoples hard-earned for their current generic offerings..

I am sorry if this post offends some alfa owners on here.
What was the last Alfa RWD production car? The 75 or the 155? 155 was FWD wasnt it?
For me then, The 75 was the last proper alfa.

So, using your logic the Sud wasn't a proper Alfa?

Please tell me in your words what made Alfa great?

[Alfanatic]

DrTre said:

As said, the "heart/emotion" spiel is a load of bks but what isn't a load of bks is that people have differing tastes and not everyone buys with a completely rational POV or reason. A Ghibli 2 is likely my next car although the rational choice would be an M3 of some kind...it's a much, much better car in all respects but just doesn't remotely flick my switch. It's irrational, I genuinely don't know why, and asking me is like asking me why blancmange is cat...it's not a question that makes sense to me..

.... which is the heart / emotion thing that you said was bks

[DrTre]

Alfanatic said:

.... which is the heart / emotion thing that you said was bks

No it's not..no car has heart/emotion. It's a machine. That's the way I've seen people talk of and use the phrase "heart/emotion".

Naturally my reaction to anything will be based on heart/emotion/financial/aesthetic/engineering reasoning (and a host of others) but at no point would I believe that one car has more heart/emotion than another. That's just bizarre.