RE: McLaren MP4-12C, Now With Added 'Phwoarr'
Discussion
YorkshireAndy said:
I like both EVO and Top Gear, and regard both as good entertainment. That is what they are though good entertainment not gospel. If I ever find myself in the fortunate position of being able to afford a 458 or the McLaren I will do what I did when I recently ordered my Audi S3:
1. Ignore what Clarkson says (all Audi drivers are c0cks)
2. Ignore what EVO says (most Audi’s are too clinical and lacking driver involvement)
3. Take an extended (3 day) test drive in all the cars I am interested in (S3, Golf R, Focus RS)
4. Order the one I prefer.
At The CPOP on Saturday I saw both a 458 and the McLaren, both of which look stunning. My favourite car of the day? Probably one of the two T350 TVRs I saw.
no I think there maybe some truth in point 2, and point 1 IS the only thing clarkson gets right 1. Ignore what Clarkson says (all Audi drivers are c0cks)
2. Ignore what EVO says (most Audi’s are too clinical and lacking driver involvement)
3. Take an extended (3 day) test drive in all the cars I am interested in (S3, Golf R, Focus RS)
4. Order the one I prefer.
At The CPOP on Saturday I saw both a 458 and the McLaren, both of which look stunning. My favourite car of the day? Probably one of the two T350 TVRs I saw.
Ferrari have had over 64 years to hone racing cars for the road and sell the brand/cars to the public.
McLaren are just entering this Ferrari dominated market, finally a car that now directly competes with them.
They will always have an uphill battle, and I hope it is flawed, because that can only mean the cars evolving over time into something greater than it parts.
It could only be arrogance on McLaren part that in one fell swoop they can take the pole position away from Ferrari.
If this is the start, I look forward to the next 64 years..
McLaren are just entering this Ferrari dominated market, finally a car that now directly competes with them.
They will always have an uphill battle, and I hope it is flawed, because that can only mean the cars evolving over time into something greater than it parts.
It could only be arrogance on McLaren part that in one fell swoop they can take the pole position away from Ferrari.
If this is the start, I look forward to the next 64 years..
SkintEastwood said:
I'd want it to be characterful, mad, intimidating, noisy and all the things that my everyday car isnt.
But Ferrari and Lamborghini already make those for you. This is for people who want something else.It's a shame LJKS isn't here, I think this would be his kind of car.
tridave said:
no I think there maybe some truth in point 2, and point 1 IS the only thing clarkson gets right
I have to say that I went into the 3 day test drive of the S3 fully expecting it to be 'too clinical' based on EVO which I read regularly, but found the opposite. My only complaint with the S3 compared to the RS Focus is that the Focus sounded better. I will have to modify my driving style to cut more people up and be generally less considerate when the Audi arrives
I find it interesting how whenever something, or even someone for that matter, achieves such a staggering level of ability and excellence, the adjectives 'characterless and soulless' often follow. We often jokingly excuse shortcomings or flaws in cars or people as 'character', but I think there's more than a grain of truth in this. That the MP4-12C pushes new boundaries for outright ability is something that all the reviews tend to agree on, but does this really make it soulless?
Of course, owner / driver emotion is probably more critical when dealing with supercars than with any other type of car, due to a supercar being a largely emotional purchase. Practically, and with the odd exception of financial investment, there is often no good reason to own one at all. They are cars you own or aspire to because they are deeply desirable.
I wouldn't claim to have experienced either car, or even have the driving ability to be able to split them if I were given the opportunity, but I can't help feeling a bit sorry for McLaren. The criticisms of this car are in the one area you can't quantify or measure, and therefore can't easily improve. The tweaks mentioned in this article may solve the problem, it may not. How do you define "soul" and "character"? Surely it's a personal thing.
If it had needed a tad more power, or the driving position was wrong, this could have been sorted much more easily with easy, quantifiable engineering remedies, the boxes ticked, and job done. But how do you give something "soul", and more importantly do so with any reasonable prospect of success? What are you aiming for?
My inclination, without the benefit of experience, is that the MP4-12C has been treated rather harshly by the press.
Of course, owner / driver emotion is probably more critical when dealing with supercars than with any other type of car, due to a supercar being a largely emotional purchase. Practically, and with the odd exception of financial investment, there is often no good reason to own one at all. They are cars you own or aspire to because they are deeply desirable.
I wouldn't claim to have experienced either car, or even have the driving ability to be able to split them if I were given the opportunity, but I can't help feeling a bit sorry for McLaren. The criticisms of this car are in the one area you can't quantify or measure, and therefore can't easily improve. The tweaks mentioned in this article may solve the problem, it may not. How do you define "soul" and "character"? Surely it's a personal thing.
If it had needed a tad more power, or the driving position was wrong, this could have been sorted much more easily with easy, quantifiable engineering remedies, the boxes ticked, and job done. But how do you give something "soul", and more importantly do so with any reasonable prospect of success? What are you aiming for?
My inclination, without the benefit of experience, is that the MP4-12C has been treated rather harshly by the press.
Edited by Limpet on Tuesday 19th July 16:17
I'm obviously in the minority but when I was reading the MP4 v 458 v others test in EVO what struck me from the pictures was how similar looking the MP4 and the 458 are. From some angles they are almost identical and the differences seem to be relatively minor given that the basic shape is very similar - especially when you compare either of them with the other cars tested like the SLS or the 911. Someone not that interested in cars (like my wife), would possible struggle to tell them apart. So it strikes me as somewhat odd to hear comments about how wonderful looking the 458 is compared to the MP4.
Grovsie26 said:
The evo vid tells the strory, with the drag race, just before they set of they all rev the cars and the 458 italia sounds like thunder, the Mclaren sounds more boring than the 911 and Noble.
i found the noise was delayed, it was the 911 turbo which mkaes hardly any noise at all. mclaren sounds nice on start up here IMOhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YJVAagU9yY
sounded nice on the TG track too IMO. 911 turbo sounds very, very dull. a C2S sounds leagues better.
SkintEastwood said:
why not just buy 911 turbo and save a fortune?
The last thing in the world I would want is something that feels like a faster version of the clinically efficiant BMW/Audi etc etc on my driveway.
To be fair you might as well say 'why buy a 911 turbo when you can save a fortune and buy a BMW?'The last thing in the world I would want is something that feels like a faster version of the clinically efficiant BMW/Audi etc etc on my driveway.
You could argue that the M3 is often the every day car for the man that has a 430 or Gallardo in the garage for weekends, or the 911 Turbo the every day car for the man with a 599 or Aventador for weekends.
I always thought the point of the McLaren was to be the every day car for someone with a Pagani and/or Enzo in the garage for weekends.
The Wookie said:
SkintEastwood said:
why not just buy 911 turbo and save a fortune?
The last thing in the world I would want is something that feels like a faster version of the clinically efficiant BMW/Audi etc etc on my driveway.
To be fair you might as well say 'why buy a 911 turbo when you can save a fortune and buy a BMW?'The last thing in the world I would want is something that feels like a faster version of the clinically efficiant BMW/Audi etc etc on my driveway.
You could argue that the M3 is often the every day car for the man that has a 430 or Gallardo in the garage for weekends, or the 911 Turbo the every day car for the man with a 599 or Aventador for weekends.
I always thought the point of the McLaren was to be the every day car for someone with a Pagani and/or Enzo in the garage for weekends.
E21_Ross said:
i found the noise was delayed, it was the 911 turbo which mkaes hardly any noise at all. mclaren sounds nice on start up here IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YJVAagU9yY
sounded nice on the TG track too IMO. 911 turbo sounds very, very dull. a C2S sounds leagues better.
Still sounds boring and dull to me, not in the same league as the 458, which is half the problem, tats it's main rival.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YJVAagU9yY
sounded nice on the TG track too IMO. 911 turbo sounds very, very dull. a C2S sounds leagues better.
I agree the 911 turbo sounds crap, like all of the 911 range other than the made RS's.
The Wookie said:
To be fair you might as well say 'why buy a 911 turbo when you can save a fortune and buy a BMW?'
You could argue that the M3 is often the every day car for the man that has a 430 or Gallardo in the garage for weekends, or the 911 Turbo the every day car for the man with a 599 or Aventador for weekends.
I always thought the point of the McLaren was to be the every day car for someone with a Pagani and/or Enzo in the garage for weekends.
True but I find it hard for myself to concieve being in the position of having an M3 as an everyday car with something even nicer in the garage.You could argue that the M3 is often the every day car for the man that has a 430 or Gallardo in the garage for weekends, or the 911 Turbo the every day car for the man with a 599 or Aventador for weekends.
I always thought the point of the McLaren was to be the every day car for someone with a Pagani and/or Enzo in the garage for weekends.
Perhaps my opinion of the Mac is coloured by my own situation and a lottery win would change my perception.
Grovsie26 said:
E21_Ross said:
i found the noise was delayed, it was the 911 turbo which mkaes hardly any noise at all. mclaren sounds nice on start up here IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YJVAagU9yY
sounded nice on the TG track too IMO. 911 turbo sounds very, very dull. a C2S sounds leagues better.
Still sounds boring and dull to me, not in the same league as the 458, which is half the problem, tats it's main rival.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YJVAagU9yY
sounded nice on the TG track too IMO. 911 turbo sounds very, very dull. a C2S sounds leagues better.
I agree the 911 turbo sounds crap, like all of the 911 range other than the made RS's.
Good for the MAC I think that while this may not be a solution for the issues suffered by this car it certainly shows that they are listening to customer complaints and actively doing something about it. I think the next generation will be really interesting to see i think that they will have greatly reduced most of the criticisms but hopefully they will get a few artist types involced with the interior and styling depts.
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