RE: PDK-only for next Porsche 911 GT3?
Discussion
I was thinking that Porsche was the last bastion of the mainstream petrol head - perhaps not.
The sad fact is that more of these cars will sell to poseurs than real drivers and Porsche will go with the money.
Like Metallica said, Sad But True.
Oh well. I guess I'll just have to keep my Elise.
The sad fact is that more of these cars will sell to poseurs than real drivers and Porsche will go with the money.
Like Metallica said, Sad But True.
Oh well. I guess I'll just have to keep my Elise.
sleep envy said:
peralta said:
These cares are "alive" in a way that other 911s aren't - they are analogue, not digital and as such a PDK gearbox would ,to me , be a retrograde step.
may I ask, in light of the above, why did you buy a 997.2 instead of a 997.1?Don't worry the next GT3 will use the PDK-derived 7-speed manual. They wouldn't have gone to all the trouble developing and making such a big deal about it if they weren't going to use it.
All the talk about speed compared to rival's is silly because the GT3 isn't even the quickest 911 yet it's still the 911 that gets everyone talking.
All the talk about speed compared to rival's is silly because the GT3 isn't even the quickest 911 yet it's still the 911 that gets everyone talking.
Traditionally Porsche have been the most profitable car company in the world per unit sold. This has come about because there have had a policy of evolution in their car design. Therefore for each new model they have been able to ramp up profits because little has changed to the basics of the car. This is the same reason why there have always been so many different versions of each model.
But like all car companies now the bean counters rule the roost. If they think they can get away with just one transmission then that I'm afraid that is all we are likely to get. Only if a very senior member of the board takes it upon himself to champion both will I think both have a place in the future
But like all car companies now the bean counters rule the roost. If they think they can get away with just one transmission then that I'm afraid that is all we are likely to get. Only if a very senior member of the board takes it upon himself to champion both will I think both have a place in the future
Just a question for the manual shifting flat earth luddites out there?
Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man over mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luckily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man over mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luckily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
Edited by veryslowone on Tuesday 14th February 18:26
veryslowone said:
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luckily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
Another modernist!...if you get in my way with that contraption I shall jump down from my brougham and smite you . Very glad there is sensible legislation that requires a man with a red flag in front of machines that terrify the horses.Edited by veryslowone on Tuesday 14th February 18:26
veryslowone said:
Just a question for the manual shifting flat earth luddites out there?
Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man of mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luickily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
When I was at school, anyone who drove an automatic, or who got an auto only license was automatically a gay for not being able to drive a manual.Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man of mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luickily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
Progress doesn't mean taking away things that are actually enjoyable to do, it's about emphasising the enjoyable attributes of a package of experiences.
Changing gear is enjoyable and involving and not particularly hard, and not even particularly required when you have a ~ 4.0 litre NA engine with oodles of torque all over the place.
Using your logic, automatic steering when introduced, should be embraced, because it allows more speed, the driver can concentrate more on which way they want to go at junctions, or how fast they want to go simply by using a hand throttle, turning the whole experience into that of driving a railway train!
Technology WILL allow that within the next decade I am sure, so should we embrace that for the GT3?
Does it sound alien today to say that?
So why is the gearbox ANY different?
I suppose we may as well automate the throttle too, and braking. Why not jump in your GT3 and say where you want to go, and let the car do it as fast as it can? Progress WILL allow it soon, so should it be embraced?
If changing gear is so much of a hassle for people, then will steering be, braking?
Madness in my view. Cars like these are all about the experience and connection, not being 'easy' per se, but being hard because humans enjoy the challenge.
Dave
Oh well, this is good news for residual values of 997 GT3s, particularly the RS versions. Monkey Harris will be happy!! Personally Id like to see a manual GT3, but Porsche is trying to make money and with Ferrari offering a non old school manual 458 Italia and it selling well, it seems not enough purists out there exist to continue the old style manual gear box...
jorders said:
I was thinking that Porsche was the last bastion of the mainstream petrol head - perhaps not.
The sad fact is that more of these cars will sell to poseurs than real drivers and Porsche will go with the money.
Like Metallica said, Sad But True.
Oh well. I guess I'll just have to keep my Elise.
Thats right - Porsche drivers are all great "real" drivers and there are no poseurs there at all. Non of them of work in the city and they all are to found on the cat and fiddle at the weekend.The sad fact is that more of these cars will sell to poseurs than real drivers and Porsche will go with the money.
Like Metallica said, Sad But True.
Oh well. I guess I'll just have to keep my Elise.
If this is true, and if D.Bahar had any sense, this should be an open goal for the new Esprit. Sub £100k, preferably closer to £80k. Keep the car simple, out-sourced engine, MANUAL gearbox, a proper styling job, (not the rubbish that has been presented thus far), and Lotus has a niche sewn up. GT3 customer is exactly who they should go after with this product IMO, especially if Porsche is giving them the market.
p.s. people on this thread who are pushing the PDK box because it would be faster .....GT3 is hardly the ultimate track weapon?! If you really want to go fast on a track buy a Radical etc and keep your change. Sad reflection where the so called drivers market has moved to IMO that all manufacturers appear to have gone down this route. Manual gear changes done well are an art and a fundamental part of the overall enjoyment of driving (again IMO!)
p.s. people on this thread who are pushing the PDK box because it would be faster .....GT3 is hardly the ultimate track weapon?! If you really want to go fast on a track buy a Radical etc and keep your change. Sad reflection where the so called drivers market has moved to IMO that all manufacturers appear to have gone down this route. Manual gear changes done well are an art and a fundamental part of the overall enjoyment of driving (again IMO!)
veryslowone said:
Just a question for the manual shifting flat earth luddites out there?
Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man of mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luickily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
Now if you are very lucky in 20 years time for old guy will take you out for a ride in his very rare and massively valuable GT3 RS 4.0. You will be mightily impressed by his ability to talk whilst still using all four of his limbs to control a car. The noise will be a complete assult on your senses and give a weird tingerly feeling in your stomach, you will not be able to scrape the grin off your face. Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man of mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luickily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
After 20 mins he will let you out and you will wander back to your hydrogen fuel cell powered electric car. You will jump in, select auto drive using the voice command and it will whisk you home in utter silence. During the drive you will have time to contemplate where it all went wrong, and you thought you were a car guy.........
Mr Whippy said:
When I was at school, anyone who drove an automatic, or who got an auto only license was automatically a gay for not being able to drive a manual.
Progress doesn't mean taking away things that are actually enjoyable to do, it's about emphasising the enjoyable attributes of a package of experiences.
Changing gear is enjoyable and involving and not particularly hard, and not even particularly required when you have a ~ 4.0 litre NA engine with oodles of torque all over the place.
Using your logic, automatic steering when introduced, should be embraced, because it allows more speed, the driver can concentrate more on which way they want to go at junctions, or how fast they want to go simply by using a hand throttle, turning the whole experience into that of driving a railway train!
Technology WILL allow that within the next decade I am sure, so should we embrace that for the GT3?
Does it sound alien today to say that?
So why is the gearbox ANY different?
I suppose we may as well automate the throttle too, and braking. Why not jump in your GT3 and say where you want to go, and let the car do it as fast as it can? Progress WILL allow it soon, so should it be embraced?
If changing gear is so much of a hassle for people, then will steering be, braking?
Madness in my view. Cars like these are all about the experience and connection, not being 'easy' per se, but being hard because humans enjoy the challenge.
Dave
Good post, the crux of the matter is when you saidProgress doesn't mean taking away things that are actually enjoyable to do, it's about emphasising the enjoyable attributes of a package of experiences.
Changing gear is enjoyable and involving and not particularly hard, and not even particularly required when you have a ~ 4.0 litre NA engine with oodles of torque all over the place.
Using your logic, automatic steering when introduced, should be embraced, because it allows more speed, the driver can concentrate more on which way they want to go at junctions, or how fast they want to go simply by using a hand throttle, turning the whole experience into that of driving a railway train!
Technology WILL allow that within the next decade I am sure, so should we embrace that for the GT3?
Does it sound alien today to say that?
So why is the gearbox ANY different?
I suppose we may as well automate the throttle too, and braking. Why not jump in your GT3 and say where you want to go, and let the car do it as fast as it can? Progress WILL allow it soon, so should it be embraced?
If changing gear is so much of a hassle for people, then will steering be, braking?
Madness in my view. Cars like these are all about the experience and connection, not being 'easy' per se, but being hard because humans enjoy the challenge.
Dave
"Changing gear is enjoyable "
why is that so enjoyable using you hand to move up and down around your left leg (in the UK) and selecting a paddle shift? Because it takes more skill? Like I said why don't you therefore revert back to having to double declutch everytime, or is that a step too far?
To be brutally honest the gear shift has just been an interuption in "exciting things happening" for the last 120 years, it is a pause. Now man has made this pause shorter and people are still complaining.
Funny enough have you noticed how all the journo's are now coming around to this point of view?
The writing is on the wall, the gearshift is something that reduces acceleration or braking, so should not be encouraged because of the human want.
Mr Whippy said:
veryslowone said:
Just a question for the manual shifting flat earth luddites out there?
Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man of mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luickily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
When I was at school, anyone who drove an automatic, or who got an auto only license was automatically a gay for not being able to drive a manual.Would you like to take it the whole hog and get rid of the syncromesh and have to double declutch a lot of the time just to show your manly powers of man of mechanics? Thought not, you are showing your age. Give it 20 years and you will be middle aged and every boy racer circa 2030 will be laughing at you grandad as they do handbrake turns whilst you need matron to help out... it's called progress.
Considering Porche now do this for the chassis
Porsche Stability Management (PSM) with sports setup and featuring ABS, ASR, ABD and MSR
you can't complain if they do a measly PDK for the gearbox. TLA's, you can't live without them in the 21st Century. Go on, tell me what MSR is. It sounds like a sort of sexual disease.
The gearbox is just catching up with the rest of the cars progress. Go and buy a classic if you want a different thrill, but do not complain about progress, options are still there.
Anyhow I am off to handcrank my Ford Model T, luickily Laurel and Hardy are out there to help me.
Progress doesn't mean taking away things that are actually enjoyable to do, it's about emphasising the enjoyable attributes of a package of experiences.
Changing gear is enjoyable and involving and not particularly hard, and not even particularly required when you have a ~ 4.0 litre NA engine with oodles of torque all over the place.
Using your logic, automatic steering when introduced, should be embraced, because it allows more speed, the driver can concentrate more on which way they want to go at junctions, or how fast they want to go simply by using a hand throttle, turning the whole experience into that of driving a railway train!
Technology WILL allow that within the next decade I am sure, so should we embrace that for the GT3?
Does it sound alien today to say that?
So why is the gearbox ANY different?
I suppose we may as well automate the throttle too, and braking. Why not jump in your GT3 and say where you want to go, and let the car do it as fast as it can? Progress WILL allow it soon, so should it be embraced?
If changing gear is so much of a hassle for people, then will steering be, braking?
Madness in my view. Cars like these are all about the experience and connection, not being 'easy' per se, but being hard because humans enjoy the challenge.
Dave
Streetrod said:
After 20 mins he will let you out and you will wander back to your hydrogen fuel cell powered electric car. You will jump in, select auto drive using the voice command and it will whisk you home in utter silence. During the drive you will have time to contemplate where it all went wrong, and you thought you were a car guy.........
Yes but what if I saw to the computer"Take me home to XXX XXX with sensors to full safety, yet use full torque, max speed 160mph and lateral G of 1.8g along the B road?"
You know what, that would be more "interesting/ fun" than my drive home tonight even though I was not driving.
And probably safer.
veryslowone said:
Streetrod said:
After 20 mins he will let you out and you will wander back to your hydrogen fuel cell powered electric car. You will jump in, select auto drive using the voice command and it will whisk you home in utter silence. During the drive you will have time to contemplate where it all went wrong, and you thought you were a car guy.........
Yes but what if I saw to the computer"Take me home to XXX XXX with sensors to full safety, yet use full torque, max speed 160mph and lateral G of 1.8g along the B road?"
You know what, that would be more "interesting/ fun" than my drive home tonight even though I was not driving.
And probably safer.
veryslowone said:
Good post, the crux of the matter is when you said
"Changing gear is enjoyable "
why is that so enjoyable using you hand to move up and down around your left leg (in the UK) and selecting a paddle shift? Because it takes more skill? Like I said why don't you therefore revert back to having to double declutch everytime, or is that a step too far?
To be brutally honest the gear shift has just been an interuption in "exciting things happening" for the last 120 years, it is a pause. Now man has made this pause shorter and people are still complaining.
Funny enough have you noticed how all the journo's are now coming around to this point of view?
The writing is on the wall, the gearshift is something that reduces acceleration or braking, so should not be encouraged because of the human want.
Clearly your experience in enjoyable manual cars is limited. By your train of thought, why not rid the world of all cars, expand public transportation and have it all done for us? If the car can regulate driving, steering, braking, traction, stability, squat, dive, yaw, roll, why not just go whole hog and ride the bus?"Changing gear is enjoyable "
why is that so enjoyable using you hand to move up and down around your left leg (in the UK) and selecting a paddle shift? Because it takes more skill? Like I said why don't you therefore revert back to having to double declutch everytime, or is that a step too far?
To be brutally honest the gear shift has just been an interuption in "exciting things happening" for the last 120 years, it is a pause. Now man has made this pause shorter and people are still complaining.
Funny enough have you noticed how all the journo's are now coming around to this point of view?
The writing is on the wall, the gearshift is something that reduces acceleration or braking, so should not be encouraged because of the human want.
If the gear shift is but an interruption in excitement, what do you think of continuously variable transmissions? Do you find enjoyable the constant 3K rpm whine as the car zips along at increasing pace?
My advice is to find a nice manual 944 Turbo. Perfect pedal placement, perfect balance, underpowered enough that momentum remains critical to swift pace. Learn proper downshifting, heal and toe, toes and sides of feet dancing between the pedals, cornering, heavy steering, blipping the throttle to keep the revs up and the engine in boost, carrying speed through a corner, perfect apex, and a wide run out...
Once you experience it, there is not much better. Will a new Subaru with computer tune and a boost controller be faster? Probably but that is not the point. If the point is the fastest, most efficient performance car on the market, the 911 in whatever variant, GT3, GT3RS, etc. has already lost, but that has not been it's forte. It's strong point has always been a car of feel and one to evoke emotions that make you want to drive more, not necessarily to beat the guy in the 458 or the Gallardo.
Streetrod said:
Mate you don’t need a car, you need the next generation of the PlayStation attached to a simulator like pilots use for training. No chance of you hurting yourself in that
I'm not condoning progress I am just saying what is and you have to live with it.Look at the worlds best ever German car, it has headlights that follow the road, it tells you if you are driving off lane, it judges your distance to a car in front and then shines a light at the front door so you can get home safely. A mechanical arm even pops out to wipe up the semen splashes when you have sex with your mistress in the back.
Considering this it's a slow march to electronic nannying death and the manual gearbox is actually lagging behind, like a dodo that has not been discovered yet. But do not pine over certainty, you will not get any benefit in that.
Here ends the lesson
Amen
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