RE: Lotus: we're keeping going

[zebedee]

Scuffers said:

I would guess he is commenting on the Evora depreciating like a house brick.

nobody is happy to buy a car that dumps half it's ticket price in 12 months.

It doesn't though. Show me a £25k one year old Evora. Or a £30k one. Depreciation appears comparable to a 6 series BMW, which is a similar kind of price new. All cars plummet like stones at the moment, EVO's end of term reports always stagger me with how much value is lost so soon.

If Evoras were falling as fast as you think they are, I would be into one pretty soon, but alas they are not.

Edited by zebedee on Monday 20th February 11:39

[zebedee]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Yes, but doesn't that mean every car will have the same problem, namely an engine mounted far back between the rear wheels (rather than mid-ships) and standing very tall in the chassis?

Wonder what they've done for the new V6 Exige?

Why is it a problem? The handling is superb and the fact you can take the kids with you is a major bonus and one of the reasons I would have one and not a rival 2 seater.

[Tuna]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Dave Hedgehog said:

the design is pretty clever in that it allows them to make 9 models using basically 2 tub designs (elise/exige + the new system) on the same production line with the same team, it gives them great flexibility for a small volume manufacturer especially for the very limited resources they have

Yes, but doesn't that mean every car will have the same problem, namely an engine mounted far back between the rear wheels (rather than mid-ships) and standing very tall in the chassis?

Wonder what they've done for the new V6 Exige?

Not true. The engine position is due to the Evora layout (ie. +2 seats placed relatively far back, no rear overhang). It's not due to the chassis. The Esprit uses the same chassis, but with a low-placed longitudinal engine.

Lots of FUD on here.

[Scuffers]

zebedee said:

Scuffers said:

I would guess he is commenting on the Evora depreciating like a house brick.

nobody is happy to buy a car that dumps half it's ticket price in 12 months.

It doesn't though. Show me a £25k one year old Evora. Or a £30k one. Depreciation appears comparable to a 6 series BMW, which is a similar kind of price new. All cars plummet like stones at the moment, EVO's end of term reports always stagger me with how much value is lost so soon.

If Evoras were falling as fast as you think they are, I would be into one pretty soon, but alas they are not.

OK, not quite 50% but look at this one:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3389263.htm
Evora 2+2 Tech, sport packs (2011/60) - 7,293 miles - £38,995

so, 2011 car with sod all miles, not exactly a base spec car (would have been over £60K new), now at a dealer asking price of £38,995 so I would expect to pay ~£36K cash.

looking though classifieds, there are cars there for under £30K....

[zebedee]

Scuffers said:

OK, not quite 50% but look at this one:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3389263.htm
Evora 2+2 Tech, sport packs (2011/60) - 7,293 miles - £38,995

so, 2011 car with sod all miles, not exactly a base spec car (would have been over £60K new), now at a dealer asking price of £38,995 so I would expect to pay ~£36K cash.

looking though classifieds, there are cars there for under £30K....

It isn't an S though is it, so south of 60 rather than north of it I would have thought. And there are other cars of similar age and spec and mileage for more than that - 2011 5000 miles, £45k. And advertised at 38k, so doesn't matter what you would expect to pay. Given what I read every month in Evo about new car depreciation, I don't find that any more remarkable than other things I have seen in there. I am only defending it because I think it is a great car and I wouldn't want people reading this and being put off buying one, selfishly I would actually love them to plummet as I doubt I will ever buy a new car.

[Scuffers]

zebedee said:

It isn't an S though is it, so south of 60 rather than north of it I would have thought. And there are other cars of similar age and spec and mileage for more than that - 2011 5000 miles, £45k. And advertised at 38k, so doesn't matter what you would expect to pay. Given what I read every month in Evo about new car depreciation, I don't find that any more remarkable than other things I have seen in there. I am only defending it because I think it is a great car and I wouldn't want people reading this and being put off buying one, selfishly I would actually love them to plummet as I doubt I will ever buy a new car.

no, it's not an S, but it does have every other option, do the numbers, it's north of £60K new.

if it was an S with those options, it would be north of £70K...

[zebedee]

Scuffers said:

no, it's not an S, but it does have every other option, do the numbers, it's north of £60K new.

if it was an S with those options, it would be north of £70K...

You might be right but I haven't looked at price of packs etc for some time. I wonder what they are actually selling for new at the moment, I see there are lots of unregistered S's on there for 65k so I doubt anyone is getting or paying near list for them. If a new S is around 65k, then the 48k or so for a year old one is not bad (though admittedly the fact that these are probably not 2012MY Evoras will mean prices have fallen from the levels they were at a year ago).

I just hope prices aren't being affected by the sort of dross that appears on here from time to time and people actually give them a try because I think most would be pleasantly surprised, christ, if they believed half the stuff on here most of them would be ecstatic when they experienced the reality!

[Ozzie Osmond]

Tuna said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

Wonder what they've done for the new V6 Exige?

The engine position is due to the Evora layout (ie. +2 seats placed relatively far back, no rear overhang). It's not due to the chassis. The Esprit uses the same chassis, but with a low-placed longitudinal engine.

Lots of FUD on here.

Hmmm. So I think you're saying the Exige is rear engined same as Evora but Esprit will in due course be a proper mid-engined layout. Thank goodness for that.

[zebedee]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Hmmm. So I think you're saying the Exige is rear engined same as Evora but Esprit will in due course be a proper mid-engined layout. Thank goodness for that.

Ozzie - is the Evora engine position a real problem for you and if so why? I accept that it might be by the way, it is a genuine question, I'm just interested in the answer.

[Ozzie Osmond]

zebedee said:

Ozzie - is the Evora engine position a real problem for you and if so why?

Very, very poor rear visibility especially with a supercharger stuck on top. No wonder they have to sell their finely honed driving tool with a reversing camera. And that's just the detail.

Otherwise it's a question of balance. Porsche have been moving their 911 rear-engine further and further forwards while Lotus have been moving their mid-engine further backwards. They can't both be right.

[Dave Hedgehog]

j123 said:

http://www.reinforcedplastics.com/view/10221/carbo...

"Carbo Tech to produce carbon fibre monocoques for McLaren sports cars"

"15 June 2010
Carbo Tech has received a 150 million euro order from McLaren Automotive to produce the carbon fibre monocoques for McLaren's new range of sports cars. "

It cost Mclaren 150 million euro's to produce those monocoques. Lotus need to put that money in as well.
BTW this technology can work for 2 + 2's as well.

The old AL frames that Lotus will continue to use on new models will only get heavier and heavier- the espirit will be a pretty heavy car.

you think lotus have 150 mill lying around for this tech? and you could probably double that with all the ancillaries that would be needed, the alignment rigs mclaren use cost fortunes

[j123]

http://www.lincah.com/2011-lotus-evora/2011-lotus-...

ITs like a damn portal on a boat only half that size. The espirit also built on this some chassis will be little better as it (just look at the prototype) too will require so much structural support from the roof and pillars- due of course to the chassis originaly being engineered on a very very small budget. j

[Dainty Ankles]

Scuffers said:

nothing wrong with using Ali chassis, the issue is how it's put together and thus how much it ends up weighing.

the problem is as with most things Lotus these days, they started light, and now seem to have just piled on the weight.

ie, original Elise tub was 68Kg's (+ ~11Kg's subframe), Evora is reportedly ~200Kg's

Yes, it;s bigger, but it's not double the size

Just to clarify, the Evora tub is actually ~74kgs (less than the MP4 12C, bearing in mind is a 2+2). The 200kg figures includes front and rear subframes.

[Scuffers]

Dainty Ankles said:

Scuffers said:

nothing wrong with using Ali chassis, the issue is how it's put together and thus how much it ends up weighing.

the problem is as with most things Lotus these days, they started light, and now seem to have just piled on the weight.

ie, original Elise tub was 68Kg's (+ ~11Kg's subframe), Evora is reportedly ~200Kg's

Yes, it;s bigger, but it's not double the size

Just to clarify, the Evora tub is actually ~74kgs (less than the MP4 12C, bearing in mind is a 2+2). The 200kg figures includes front and rear subframes.

really?

that makes the rear subframe somewhat heavy then.....

[Dainty Ankles]

Scuffers said:

really?

that makes the rear subframe somewhat heavy then.....

Indeed, galvanised steel that has to be large enough encorporate the V6 and the wider tub plus larger fixings to hold it on.

Also, not to be pedantic but that Evora you linked would have retailed at £55k.

[1981linley]

Scuffers said:

OK, not quite 50% but look at this one:

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3389263.htm
Evora 2+2 Tech, sport packs (2011/60) - 7,293 miles - £38,995

so, 2011 car with sod all miles, not exactly a base spec car (would have been over £60K new), now at a dealer asking price of £38,995 so I would expect to pay ~£36K cash.

looking though classifieds, there are cars there for under £30K....

Hear this from someone who has actually bought one very similar....hell, I even test drove that white one at JCT but plumped for a yellow one instead. Mine is exactly as you describe Evora 2+2, tech pack, sport pack, plus reverse camera and power fold mirrors, oh and mine had done only 3900 miles when I actually looked at the odometer on picking it up! They are a cracking deal in very limited numbers, released by Lotus as ex management cars with no previous owner except for Lotus plc. It is thus the perfect second hand deal....effectively brand new but with a big discount to improve sales, keep the production line moving and increase the number on the road to raise public awareness. There is nothing wrong, as I see it, with Lotus doing this. My mother works at BMW and they do exactly the same...let everyone from distribution centre managers to valeters lease them for about £30 a month, tax, insurance all in....half the pit village ride around in brand new BMWs and some families have two or three! Had it not been for Lotus doing this then there is no way I could ever have afforded an Evora, so I am grateful....I bought my Elise in the same way from the same dealer. After losing 50% on retail on an RX8 in a year I have vowed never to buy new again. I don't see how how Lotus letting an 18 month old car go for £12000 less than retail new is a particular problem. By the way...the sub 30k car you mention is an early model 59 plate, known to have had more teething problems and is a James Bond special edition in an awful colour scheme, hence the
price I suspect. Depreciation levels will tail off now as they approach Exige and new Elise money. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all, although I wouldn't hope for a minute that your continually negative comments about Lotus are negatively affecting sales....anyone with half a brain enough to be able to afford such a car can see straight through bias claptrap.

[Scuffers]

1981linley said:

anyone with half a brain enough to be able to afford such a car can see straight through bias claptrap.

LOL!

that right is it?

[1981linley]

Scuffers said:

LOL!

that right is it?

Well done...you picked up on the deliberate irony. Take it you agree with everything else said then.

[j123]

Dave Hedgehog said:

you think lotus have 150 mill lying around for this tech? and you could probably double that with all the ancillaries that would be needed, the alignment rigs mclaren use cost fortunes

As every other maker will be using this technology or indeed using more complex aluminum-magnesium-high strength steel combinations like Porsche and Audi do; if Lotus do not use it, they will have old tech overweight Aluminum cars- much like Aston do, that won't compete. I'm sorry you guys cannot see this. Lotus is doing just terribly and the esprit is their only way out. Is the esprit- which is built on a heavy older evora platform- going to do, some may hope so. Indeed they should have invested 150 million or shared the expense with someone else before they did anything. Read the writing on the wall people. J

Edited by j123 on Monday 20th February 20:33

[j123]

again positively no rear visibility-- not good enough---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2013_Lotus_Espri...