RE: PH Blog: Why US muscle still rules - for now
Discussion
Gadgeroonie said:
American horsepower is recognised as 15 to 20% higher than what we get here in the UK
No I don't think it is. It's just most people don't look into it fully.In the tuning world the most popular rolling road chassis dyno in the US is the Dynojet. This is an inertia style dyno that uses a static drag brake for resistance. A dyno like this will typically produce higher figures. But this is just the nature of how it works. An eddy current load bearing dyno such as a Mustang Dyno can dynamically increase the load on the engine instead of using a fixed weight. Numbers from these dyno's tend to be a lot lower, but more comparable to SAE Net figures. Dyno's of this type are far rarer and as people like big numbers most only concentrate on the Dynojet numbers and ignore the rest.
Other things of note are if the dyno is producing STD figures, as in what the engine is making there and then with those temps and humidity levels, or if the figures have been corrected using algorithms. This can easily make a 20rwhp difference on a 300rwhp motor. If they do correct then they will likely use some form of SAE standard. In the UK and Europe we tend to favour DIN and other standards which have different values for some of the variables and will produce different figures (usually lower).
Then there's the whole imperial HP and metric PS thing to consider as again it will add a variance between figures.
As for manufacture claims, they are all flywheel and all SAE Net (Society of Automotive Engineers). These are reliable and if anything more strict than some other car makers claims outside of the US. In recent times car makers can also get these figures approved/validated independently by the SAE such as GM did with the C6 zo6.
Edited by 300bhp/ton on Thursday 5th July 10:52
Upatdawn said:
Captain Muppet said:
Yes there is, there is better technology. Just because a statement rhymes doesn't mean it's true.
I disagreeI'm not being in any way anti-American, I've worked with OE engine designers in America, and they are as good as anyone. Big engines are great, I'm a big fan of large simple engines, but there are many ways of improving a given engine without increasing it's displacement, and many ways of keeping the exact same power and torque characteristics with a smaller displacement. Displacement can be replaced.
It the knee-jerk ignorance of the phrase I don't like, rather than the massive engined cars it's often used to praise.
[/engineeringpolice]
Cledus Snow said:
Bibbs said:
IATM said:
aaaanddddddddddd here lies the problem - i just wish, really wish they would bring it to the uk with the steering on the correct side for lets say 40-50k? and i seriously think they would be a HUGE hit !!
But it wouldn't sell.Vaux imported a load of HSVs and they didn't sell well. They are RHD out the box.
Ford were watching to look at importing FPVs and didn't.
People want a Mustang or Camaro. Not a Cougar or a Skylark Grand sport. It's the same with the new stuff.
Monaro/VX should NEVER NEVER NEVER ever in a month of Sunday's been badged as Vauxhall. What where those pillocks and GM UK thinking???
They should have kept them as Holdens. They also needed to smarten up their dealer network and actually inform all of their dealers about the cars properly and then look after their customers.
A bit of advertising wouldn't go a miss either. Even today it's amazing how many people don't know what a Monaro is. And you get idiots who'd rather pay £2k more to get an Insignia VXR over a Bathurst VXR8
LuS1fer said:
Captain Muppet said:
So you agree that there are alternatives to displacement, but they add cost?
Good, that was the point I was trying to get across.
So we agree a Ferrari is an "alternative" to an MR2. Excellent.Good, that was the point I was trying to get across.
Although they are both cars, so someone with a very particular set of car criteria might choose one as an alternative to the other.
Captain Muppet said:
Upatdawn said:
Captain Muppet said:
Yes there is, there is better technology. Just because a statement rhymes doesn't mean it's true.
I disagreeI'm not being in any way anti-American, I've worked with OE engine designers in America, and they are as good as anyone. Big engines are great, I'm a big fan of large simple engines, but there are many ways of improving a given engine without increasing it's displacement, and many ways of keeping the exact same power and torque characteristics with a smaller displacement. Displacement can be replaced.
It the knee-jerk ignorance of the phrase I don't like, rather than the massive engined cars it's often used to praise.
[/engineeringpolice]
But can you really get the same torque? And especially as low in the rpms without displacement? For example a 6.2 LS3 is capable of making 330-350ft lb of torque at around 1700rpm n/a. A 4.0 V8 n/a would never be able to attain this.
I think that is also a victory for hype over reality.
The joy of imports is a £215 VEL tax disc. The VXR8 was immediately kicked in the b*ll*cks by a high VEL rate in comparison.
People are also scared of V8s. Damn, I'm looking at buying a Fiesta ST and actually feel guilty and apprehensive about buying a 2 litre hatch despite having the exact same engine in our Mondeo.
The joy of imports is a £215 VEL tax disc. The VXR8 was immediately kicked in the b*ll*cks by a high VEL rate in comparison.
People are also scared of V8s. Damn, I'm looking at buying a Fiesta ST and actually feel guilty and apprehensive about buying a 2 litre hatch despite having the exact same engine in our Mondeo.
300bhp/ton said:
Captain Muppet said:
Upatdawn said:
Captain Muppet said:
Yes there is, there is better technology. Just because a statement rhymes doesn't mean it's true.
I disagreeI'm not being in any way anti-American, I've worked with OE engine designers in America, and they are as good as anyone. Big engines are great, I'm a big fan of large simple engines, but there are many ways of improving a given engine without increasing it's displacement, and many ways of keeping the exact same power and torque characteristics with a smaller displacement. Displacement can be replaced.
It the knee-jerk ignorance of the phrase I don't like, rather than the massive engined cars it's often used to praise.
[/engineeringpolice]
But can you really get the same torque? And especially as low in the rpms without displacement? For example a 6.2 LS3 is capable of making 330-350ft lb of torque at around 1700rpm n/a. A 4.0 V8 n/a would never be able to attain this.
Ready?
I could definitely make a 6.1 LS3 that did everything a 6.2 LS3 can do, just by making every tiny little thing on it better. It might be more expensive, but displacement would be replaced, so there is a replacement for displacement.
If you want a less tedious example - do they make drag race engines bigger, or do they tune them until they need a rebuild every few seconds? Both, obviously, but at some point in that process tuning is the thing they improve rather than displacement.
Increased displacement is not a universal cure to all engine deficiencies, otherwise the LS3 would be an 8.2, or a 234535.9 - everything is a compromise, no one feature is better than all the rest.
[/tediousengineeringdebatewhichnoonecaresabout]
Captain Muppet said:
Imagine I'm a really tedious pedantic engineer. Imagine I have a beard with bits of toast still in it and that I haven't spoken to a girl ever.
Ready?
I could definitely make a 6.1 LS3 that did everything a 6.2 LS3 can do, just by making every tiny little thing on it better. It might be more expensive, but displacement would be replaced, so there is a replacement for displacement.
If you want a less tedious example - do they make drag race engines bigger, or do they tune them until they need a rebuild every few seconds? Both, obviously, but at some point in that process tuning is the thing they improve rather than displacement.
Increased displacement is not a universal cure to all engine deficiencies, otherwise the LS3 would be an 8.2, or a 234535.9 - everything is a compromise, no one feature is better than all the rest.
[/tediousengineeringdebatewhichnoonecaresabout]
So was that a "no" or a "don't know" answer? Ready?
I could definitely make a 6.1 LS3 that did everything a 6.2 LS3 can do, just by making every tiny little thing on it better. It might be more expensive, but displacement would be replaced, so there is a replacement for displacement.
If you want a less tedious example - do they make drag race engines bigger, or do they tune them until they need a rebuild every few seconds? Both, obviously, but at some point in that process tuning is the thing they improve rather than displacement.
Increased displacement is not a universal cure to all engine deficiencies, otherwise the LS3 would be an 8.2, or a 234535.9 - everything is a compromise, no one feature is better than all the rest.
[/tediousengineeringdebatewhichnoonecaresabout]
300bhp/ton said:
Captain Muppet said:
Imagine I'm a really tedious pedantic engineer. Imagine I have a beard with bits of toast still in it and that I haven't spoken to a girl ever.
Ready?
I could definitely make a 6.1 LS3 that did everything a 6.2 LS3 can do, just by making every tiny little thing on it better. It might be more expensive, but displacement would be replaced, so there is a replacement for displacement.
If you want a less tedious example - do they make drag race engines bigger, or do they tune them until they need a rebuild every few seconds? Both, obviously, but at some point in that process tuning is the thing they improve rather than displacement.
Increased displacement is not a universal cure to all engine deficiencies, otherwise the LS3 would be an 8.2, or a 234535.9 - everything is a compromise, no one feature is better than all the rest.
[/tediousengineeringdebatewhichnoonecaresabout]
So was that a "no" or a "don't know" answer? Ready?
I could definitely make a 6.1 LS3 that did everything a 6.2 LS3 can do, just by making every tiny little thing on it better. It might be more expensive, but displacement would be replaced, so there is a replacement for displacement.
If you want a less tedious example - do they make drag race engines bigger, or do they tune them until they need a rebuild every few seconds? Both, obviously, but at some point in that process tuning is the thing they improve rather than displacement.
Increased displacement is not a universal cure to all engine deficiencies, otherwise the LS3 would be an 8.2, or a 234535.9 - everything is a compromise, no one feature is better than all the rest.
[/tediousengineeringdebatewhichnoonecaresabout]
They smell of fish, I know that much.
Captain Muppet said:
Oh. Never driven on any of the roads along the coast or over mountains? Even in flat boring Indiana I managed to find lots of lovely twisty roads.
There is more to driving in the US than cities and the interstates.
That is true I was being flippant. The US does have it all if you want it. There is more to driving in the US than cities and the interstates.
BlitzE34 said:
swerni said:
Why?
I never understand when people post that
As to driving around in a pillbox, that's a very fair an accurate description.
That's my one biggest issue, the visibility is crap.
+1 I have no issues with driving LHD.I never understand when people post that
As to driving around in a pillbox, that's a very fair an accurate description.
That's my one biggest issue, the visibility is crap.
I have a manual 2011 GT as a daily driver in the UK. I regularly change to my wife's RHD auto and also travel on the continent a lot in the Stang.
It's not an issue for any competent driver.
Bibbs said:
The HSV was the Pontiac GTO in the states. Seemed to sell well.
It sold in "OK" numbers, but didn't meet sales expectations, so was dropped (blame the "bland" looks, or the wrong badge.....the GTO name brings with it great expectation).Then GM tried again with the Commodore/VXR8 and called it G8. It didn't sell well and is now only available as a cop car.
However, GM are looking to try yet again, this time calling it the "SS".......and they're keeping the sales expectations low.
I wish it well as there just aren't enough RWD saloons in America anymore.
The are rumours that Lincoln want to use the 2015MY Mustang underpinnings for a RWD saloon though (and possible a coupe). I'd welcome that, although the current Lincoln lineup is bland beyond belief, with possibly the most confusing naming conventions ever......MKS/MKT/MKX.....which is which? Bring back a Continental!
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