RE: PH Blog: the new driving

[TobesH]

Sorry! my last posting was a bit off subject... rant over

[Munich]

Article said:

A lack of car enthusiasts in car companies? Maybe, but perhaps more worryingly it might be a lack of car companies who actually listen to their staff who ARE car nuts - being such a person does seem to have become a cultural and professional stumbling-block in a modern car manufacturer.

From what I hear from friends of mine that work at BMW, this rings true.

[Mermaid]

TobesH said:

I think the majority of people just don't care. A car is a means to get from A to B and ship the kids about. That's why our roads are clogged by cars like these,

As an aside, an idea to only allow importation of cars to match numbers of those that are being scrapped/exported?

[NGK210]

Yeesh, enough already with the 'motoring hacks are in the pockets of the manufacturers' twaddle

For example, Porsche has been hammered by all for its electro steering; Audi regularly gets a kicking for its steering/ride/handling set up; Peugeot is taken to task for its mediocrity; Jeep gets flamed for its 'elk test' fail; M-B for its recent woeful reliability and build quality... the list goes on, and on

[BeirutTaxi]

Munich said:

From what I hear from friends of mine that work at BMW, this rings true.

BMW strikes me as a company where the car nuts are listened to. I haven't driven it yet but the new 3 Series is meant to be a sharp driving car, especially for what it is.

[TobesH]

Mermaid said:

TobesH said:

I think the majority of people just don't care. A car is a means to get from A to B and ship the kids about. That's why our roads are clogged by cars like these,

As an aside, an idea to only allow importation of cars to match numbers of those that are being scrapped/exported?

Well the majority of these 'types' of cars being on our roads was thanks to that inspired scrappage scheme...

[kambites]

NGK210 said:

Yeesh, enough already with the 'motoring hacks are in the pockets of the manufacturers' twaddle

For example, Porsche has been hammered by all for its electro steering; Audi regularly gets a kicking for its steering/ride/handling set up; Peugeot is taken to task for its mediocrity; Jeep gets flamed for its 'elk test' fail; M-B for its recent woeful reliability and build quality... the list goes on, and on

Really? I've never seen Porsche "hammered" for it's god-awful steering systems. It often gets mentioned in passing, but usually the next line says something along the lines of "but the rest of the car is so good you can forgive it". We shouldn't forgive manufacturers who claim to make driver's cars but make one iteration of their product worse than the previous in a fairly fundamental way, IMO. Forgiving them gives them no incentive to do better next time, which ultimately leads us to where we are now.

It's popular to slate Audi for their ride and handling but BMW have been doing their best to emulate them and it rarely even gets mentioned. I haven't driven the latest 3-series, but the E90 was frankly poorly resolved rubbish. Maybe the latest one is better, and I salute them if it is, but the car should never have got so poor in the first place.

Edited by kambites on Wednesday 14th November 14:01

[Limpet]

BeirutTaxi said:

BMW strikes me as a company where the car nuts are listened to. I haven't driven it yet but the new 3 Series is meant to be a sharp driving car, especially for what it is.

Only if you spec it with £800 worth of Adaptive Suspension. On standard suspension it rolls like a pudding and doesn't ride particularly well either. The steering also feels the same whether parking, or barrelling round an 80 mph sweeper. There are expensive options to fix that as well, apparently.

All the press cars had these options fitted.

It's not a bad car by any stretch of the imagination, but without raiding the options list, it's nothing special dynamically. The only saving grace is the modest 205 section tyres on my EfficientDynamics are easily overcome by the brawny diesel under the bonnet

[andyps]

Having read the initial post from Chris Harris I have read through most of the comments, there are so many that I have set up to quote that I think it would be too confusing to try putting them together. However, I do want to say that I agree absolutely with c_seven and most of what DJRC have said. Simply put, if journalists keep saying how a particular car is better because it is faster round a track, or more precise on the limit because of the firm suspension then people will go into dealers wanting this, and to reflect this demand the marketers will advise the engineers it is what is needed (that is what marketers do, they don't try to create false demand if involved in the process early enough and correctly). This means the journalists are a large part of the problem.

I suspect that a Citroen C6 would suit the driving requirements of most people buying A6s, 5 Series etc. way more due to the comfortable ride, but apparently it is too wallowy on the limit and lacks any reference to ring times etc. Therefore it gets ignored and dropped from the range whilst more and more people buy S-line A6s and the chiropractors make money.

Whilst reading the thread I remembered writing a letter to Autocar magazine on this very subject (can't remember if it was printed), based on a comment from Steve Cropley. I have found the letter which I wrote in August 2008 saying much of what I have repeated here, and very much saying that the journalists are their own worst enemy.

When the main criticism of a car is consistently poor ride, and journalists stop saying yes to the trips to the ring and other circuits to test new cars to get the gratuitous drift shots and actually report on real life driving conditions then we will have progress! And the marketers will respond to the changes in customer demand.

[ukaskew]

TobesH said:

I think the majority of people just don't care. A car is a means to get from A to B and ship the kids about. That's why our roads are clogged by cars like these

Dare I ask what 'these people' should be driving? Like it or not a car is a means of getting from A to B for 99.999% of people 99.999999999% of the time, they don't care, and quite rightly so. I'm sure on a various dedicated websites for other things we buy (stereos, shoes, white goods, whatever) there are people who find it hilarious what many of us will happily use.

As always there are various levels in this whole argument depending on what you're used to anyway. For many here 200bhp is at best, 'entry level' and wouldn't get out of bed to drive anything with less than 300hp ('to slow', otherwise), yet you have people like me who could own whatever they like up to a certain value, but are driving around in a 95hp Sportka (and having the time of my life) because I was fed up with not feeling I can extract enough enjoyment out of a 172hp Clio. I personally feel that's a pretty basic, involving car, but then you have another level again driving around in a 1960s Mini who think my 10 year old Sportka has far too many bells and whistles. It's all relative.

[DanielSan]

BeirutTaxi said:

Munich said:

From what I hear from friends of mine that work at BMW, this rings true.

BMW strikes me as a company where the car nuts are listened to. I haven't driven it yet but the new 3 Series is meant to be a sharp driving car, especially for what it is.

I always thought the car nuts at BMW were given jobs in the M division to keep them quiet

[NGK210]

kambites said:

NGK210 said:

Yeesh, enough already with the 'motoring hacks are in the pockets of the manufacturers' twaddle

For example, Porsche has been hammered by all for its electro steering; Audi regularly gets a kicking for its steering/ride/handling set up; Peugeot is taken to task for its mediocrity; Jeep gets flamed for its 'elk test' fail; M-B for its recent woeful reliability and build quality... the list goes on, and on

Really? I've never seen Porsche "hammered" for it's god-awful steering systems. It often gets mentioned in passing, but usually the next line says something along the lines of "but the rest of the car is so good you can forgive it". We shouldn't forgive manufacturers who claim to make driver's cars but make one iteration of their product worse than the previous in a fairly fundamental way, IMO.

Perhaps "hammered" is inappropriate but, for example, the new 911 trailing an old R8 in evo's group test was quite a statement?

[kambites]

NGK210 said:

Perhaps "hammered" is inappropriate but, for example, the new 911 trailing an old R8 in evo's group test was quite a statement?

I suppose so, but did they make a strong statement of why.

What I think I'd like to see, is twin tests of new cars and the car(s) they replace - so for example a 991/997(/996/993) C2 group test with as much (if not more) focus put on what's got worse than what's got better.

I haven't driven the 991, but every other one of those cars has been worse than its predecessor as a driving tool, IMO.

[andyps]

Limpet said:

BeirutTaxi said:

BMW strikes me as a company where the car nuts are listened to. I haven't driven it yet but the new 3 Series is meant to be a sharp driving car, especially for what it is.

Only if you spec it with £800 worth of Adaptive Suspension. On standard suspension it rolls like a pudding and doesn't ride particularly well either. The steering also feels the same whether parking, or barrelling round an 80 mph sweeper. There are expensive options to fix that as well, apparently.

Thanks for saying that, I haven't tried any of the latest 3 series cars but had noticed this:

Limpet said:

All the press cars had these options fitted.

and wondered what the standard ones were like.

[cuda]

So go buy an M3 CSL...

I did and plan to keep it until one day I give it to my son and say - 'son, this is how they used to make proper cars'.

[Schnellmann]

Another angle on this debate.

The underlying "problem" is capitalism.

Modern cars are so good that you could easily drive one with few problems for 10 years or more as they don't go wrong or wear out quickly. However, car manufacturers are not geared up to selling cars to people once every ten years. They need to have customers constantly buying new cars.

Customers are much less likely to be persuaded to change their existing car for something that is the same. So the manufacturers have to come up with cars that are "better" than the last model in some way. The new models could be made to look "better" but that is subjective so it is much easier for the manufacturers to focus on quantifiable improvements such as: more power, quicker acceleration, faster around a track, etc. At the same time, the car needs to be better by being safer, quieter and having more equipment, which adds weight. More performance, more weight and better lap times (plus massive wheels because customers want them too) are very difficult to achieve whilst retaining a supple ride and providing great feedback. But as you can't really measure ride and feedback (in a quantifiable way that you can use in marketing to differentiate your product from other cars in the market) they count less.

Car-purchasers are ultimately to blame. If we didn't swallow the marketing BS and demanded something different, through our purchasing preferences, then the manufacturers would have to adapt or die. However, despite protesting about loss of feedback et al most people on here will still go and buy the newest, latest, most powerful and so the manufacturers will continue to develop in that direction. (check out the thread on the new Vantage where some are lambasting it for having "only" 575 bhp because Ferrari and Lambo now offer over 700.....)

[Shade]

So happy I'm nowhere near rich enough to buy anything new ish that suffers from this.

I'll take my RS all day every day. It does what matters - pins me to the seat then makes me giggle like a child through the corners. Sorted.

[TobesH]

ukaskew said:

TobesH said:

I think the majority of people just don't care. A car is a means to get from A to B and ship the kids about. That's why our roads are clogged by cars like these

Dare I ask what 'these people' should be driving? Like it or not a car is a means of getting from A to B for 99.999% of people 99.999999999% of the time, they don't care, and quite rightly so. I'm sure on a various dedicated websites for other things we buy (stereos, shoes, white goods, whatever) there are people who find it hilarious what many of us will happily use.

As always there are various levels in this whole argument depending on what you're used to anyway. For many here 200bhp is at best, 'entry level' and wouldn't get out of bed to drive anything with less than 300hp ('to slow', otherwise), yet you have people like me who could own whatever they like up to a certain value, but are driving around in a 95hp Sportka (and having the time of my life) because I was fed up with not feeling I can extract enough enjoyment out of a 172hp Clio. I personally feel that's a pretty basic, involving car, but then you have another level again driving around in a 1960s Mini who think my 10 year old Sportka has far too many bells and whistles. It's all relative.

I do agree with you... but I guess its hard to understand why someone would choose a new Hyundai i10 over a 3 year old Mini Cooper for example. I know what they would say, its the 25 year warranty, cheap price, 100mpg economy but when you actually factor in depreciation and heaven forbid, enjoyment the choice is far less convincing. I guess its a lack of interest and imagination of the masses, which reflects in the way these cars seem to be driven.
As it happens I'm looking at a Mk2 Focus RS, with a GGR370 conversion and also replacing my B7 Audi for a new M135i 5door with Steptronic. I know for a fact I wont be able to use the performance these cars have to offer on the road, but I just can't help myself
Back to Chris Harris's article, I still maintain of all the cars I've ever owned and driven, for sheer satisfaction my 125bhp Caterham is perfect... it doesn't need any more power, its like wearing a comfortable pair of trainers... it's quick enough and you can use the performance all the time... bit chilly though as no heater...

[Agent Orange]

BS75 said:

Hmm...it seems that I miss old-driving and old-car magazines...

Buy Octane magazine although that is slowly turning into EVO.

[BeirutTaxi]

cuda said:

So go buy an M3 CSL...

I did and plan to keep it until one day I give it to my son and say - 'son, this is how they used to make proper cars'.

^^ As much as I love the CSL, is it a paragon of 'proper cars'?

Flappy paddle gearbox and T/C.

I drove an E21 years ago which had a carburettor with a very naughty sounding second choke, no PAS or ABS and a gear leaver that needed a good shove.

Standard brakes were dire though.