RE: BMW M135i vs Audi S3
Discussion
VeeFource said:
Funny the M135i is so often referred to as excellent value and a bargain, yet it's almost twice the price of a Mountuned Fiesta ST (not to mention running costs etc). Ok so they're not comparable classes of cars, but is an M135i really nearly twice as rewarding to drive as the Fiesta (given it's not that much more practical)? I love RWD & BM's delicious straight 6, but I have a hard time rationalising that fact in my mind anyway,..
If you used that line of argument no one would buy Ferraris or anything exotic because of course however great a 458 might be, it is not 10 times better than a Fiesta. The M135i is great value for money because it offers performance close to cars that are much more expensive, whilst also being relatively practical (if you want or need that) with 5 doors, just enough boot space, autobox and ok economy. It is also only 50% more than the Fiesta, not 100% more and for that you get a much more sophisticated car for most of the time when you are not ragging it down B roads.
Ali_T said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but why do people go on about the M135is performance so much? It's, what, 316bhp and 1515kg? So not any faster than my current Evo (325bhp, 1590kg), which I don't consider all that quick. Certainly not supercar quick. Yes, it's faster than run of the mill hot hatches, but that's where it ends.
Not having a go as I imagine there's not a big difference and I've driven neither, but I expect it is a bit quicker than your Evo, and cheaper:Quicker (I expect, with the auto) shifts, more power at the wheels (less drivetrain loss) and possibly more space 'under the graph' being a larger capacity motor.
kambites said:
People just seem to have this idea that RWD + rain = instant death. I constantly read that my car is "dangerously twitchy" (and other such rubbish) in the wet, but I drive it reasonably quickly in the rain all the time and have never had a problem (and I have far from god-like car control).
The same here - about 500 miles last Friday to Monday in my 944 Turbo. 300 hp, mechanical LSD, no traction control, no stability control, skinny (by modern standards) 225/50 16 rear tyres, retro levels of turbo lag. And anyone who saw me out on the damp Silverstone handling circuit in a 991 on Saturday morning knows I am far from being a car control expert. Yet no instant death. I even drive it in the snow sometimes.I guess those of us who grew up on low-powered-skinny-tyred rear drive cars, and then advanced to higher-powered-skinny-tyred rear drive cars have a natural respect for the loud pedal, e.g. when and where to apply it in large deflections.
Schnellmann said:
VeeFource said:
Funny the M135i is so often referred to as excellent value and a bargain, yet it's almost twice the price of a Mountuned Fiesta ST (not to mention running costs etc). Ok so they're not comparable classes of cars, but is an M135i really nearly twice as rewarding to drive as the Fiesta (given it's not that much more practical)? I love RWD & BM's delicious straight 6, but I have a hard time rationalising that fact in my mind anyway,..
If you used that line of argument no one would buy Ferraris or anything exotic because of course however great a 458 might be, it is not 10 times better than a Fiesta. The M135i is great value for money because it offers performance close to cars that are much more expensive, whilst also being relatively practical (if you want or need that) with 5 doors, just enough boot space, autobox and ok economy. It is also only 50% more than the Fiesta, not 100% more and for that you get a much more sophisticated car for most of the time when you are not ragging it down B roads.
Ok so the Fiesta is 215bhp vs the BM's 320bhp, but it's also nearly 400kg lighter, so the performance argument isn't that strong in my mind, it's really just the sophistication thing as you say (and maybe badge snobbery for those that care about that sort of thing - I'm not bothered tbh). Admittedly you can go around circles with the man maths, but it's still a lot more money for some sophistication which doesn't make the M135i seem like the bargain it's made out to be.
Both the M135i and the Fiesta Mountune are bargains if you ask me, in that they both out-compete significantly more expensive cars in their direct peer group, and they are both (for me) the pick of their respective classes.
I don't think they compete much with each other.
If I had M135i money to blow on a new all-purpose car, I might well buy one (or more likely the forthcoming 235i with the de-uglified schnozz). Certainly rather than that AMG A-Class.
However, if I had Fiesta Mountune money to blow on a new more compact hatch I'd be very happy with that, rather than a new Pug or Clio or Mini Cooper. I would not spend a lot of time moping around wishing I had a new M135i instead.
Just as when I'm in my Porsche I don't look at an Espace, or a Caterham, and think "I should have had one of those instead of this".
I don't think they compete much with each other.
If I had M135i money to blow on a new all-purpose car, I might well buy one (or more likely the forthcoming 235i with the de-uglified schnozz). Certainly rather than that AMG A-Class.
However, if I had Fiesta Mountune money to blow on a new more compact hatch I'd be very happy with that, rather than a new Pug or Clio or Mini Cooper. I would not spend a lot of time moping around wishing I had a new M135i instead.
Just as when I'm in my Porsche I don't look at an Espace, or a Caterham, and think "I should have had one of those instead of this".
Lowtimer said:
Just as when I'm in my Porsche I don't look at an Espace, or a Caterham, and think "I should have had one of those instead of this".
Pretty sure your porsche is going to be however many times more rewarding to drive than the price difference with respect to the Espace, and some! That was all I was getting at, just that I don't think the M135i driver is going to have a smile anywhere near twice as wide as the ST driver. Probably just comes down to how much disposable cash you've got at the end of the day..It raises an interesting question about how people buy cars, I suppose. Personally, I never think "I have this much money, what is the best car I can afford?"; I tend to think "I have this much money, what car is best value under that price?".
If I had 30k sitting around and needed a hot hatch, I'd far rather spend 20k on a good one than 30k on a brilliant one. I think perhaps I'm in a minority there, though.
If I had 30k sitting around and needed a hot hatch, I'd far rather spend 20k on a good one than 30k on a brilliant one. I think perhaps I'm in a minority there, though.
VeeFource said:
Pretty sure your porsche is going to be however many times more rewarding to drive than the price difference with respect to the Espace, and some! That was all I was getting at, just that I don't think the M135i driver is going to have a smile anywhere near twice as wide as the ST driver. Probably just comes down to how much disposable cash you've got at the end of the day..
I'm not disagreeing. If it's smile-per-mile on a 20 minute blast round my local North Yorkshire lanes, I'd actually take the Fiesta (or my old Porsche) rather than the BMW. On the other hand one or twice a week I have to venture into the South and sometimes the mission is a four hour business trip and get into the whole M25 on a Friday afternoon situation. At the end of that I'd be much, much happier having driven the BMW, especially if it were a slushmatic one. That's a situation where I would really feel the extra money on the BMW had been well spent.
kambites said:
It raises an interesting question about how people buy cars, I suppose. Personally, I never think "I have this much money, what is the best car I can afford?"; I tend to think "I have this much money, what car is best value under that price?".
If I had 30k sitting around and needed a hot hatch, I'd far rather spend 20k on a good one than 30k on a brilliant one. I think perhaps I'm in a minority there, though.
You're certainly not the only one, I'm of the exact same mindset. Think how many track days and driving holidays you could have with that extra 10k If I had 30k sitting around and needed a hot hatch, I'd far rather spend 20k on a good one than 30k on a brilliant one. I think perhaps I'm in a minority there, though.
There's also that lovely feeling knowing your 'good' car hasn't obliterated your savings and is much more affordable to run. Tis a shame in someways though, as when I was a kid dreaming of what car I'd get when I was old enough to drive, I never though about mpg, depreciation or any of that boring stuff!
Edited by VeeFource on Friday 20th September 10:28
pilchardthecat said:
Possibly true about the driving! However, I have lived in Switzerland for 14 years, where we get proper snow every year (not once every couple of decades). In addition to the M3s I've had two RWD 5 series. Neither of those was great in the snow, although a lot better than the M3s. In comparison, the 4WD BMWs I've had (two 5s and a 3) have been brilliant. The underground garage at our old house was a b
h...it was steep and also went 90 degrees to the left, up onto the road. In the M3 it was a nightmare even with hardly any snow. In the 4WD BMWs you didn't notice the snow. Big difference. Lowtimer said:
I agree with the sentiment there, but the way it plays out for me is not £20K new car vs £30K new car, it's used versus new. However, that's a whole different debate and not one that really has a place in a new car comparison thread!
Well in practice for me it comes down to used vs used but the same argument is the same.kambites said:
It raises an interesting question about how people buy cars, I suppose. Personally, I never think "I have this much money, what is the best car I can afford?"; I tend to think "I have this much money, what car is best value under that price?".
If I had 30k sitting around and needed a hot hatch, I'd far rather spend 20k on a good one than 30k on a brilliant one. I think perhaps I'm in a minority there, though.
You're missing step number one from the process - you first decide how much money you want to spend on a car, then you work out what the best one you can get is. You have it backwards - fix the budget first.If I had 30k sitting around and needed a hot hatch, I'd far rather spend 20k on a good one than 30k on a brilliant one. I think perhaps I'm in a minority there, though.
pilchardthecat said:
You're missing step number one from the process - you first decide how much money you want to spend on a car, then you work out what the best one you can get is. You have it backwards - fix the budget first.
That's exactly the point, I do not decide "how much I want to spend", I decide what the maximum I will spend is. How much I want to spend is always £0.
Last time I bought a car, I went out with a budget of around £20k and almost ended up buying a £2k MX5.
Edited by kambites on Friday 20th September 11:01
Vladimir said:
Mike Roberts said:
BMW have confirmed an LSD is an option from next spring, and retro-fittable to all M135is.
All e-PAS is st. Lots of cars suffer from this, unless you've got 991 GT3 money, then it's a bit less st.
Really? That's sbout when we plan to get one. Hmmmm...All e-PAS is s
t. Lots of cars suffer from this, unless you've got 991 GT3 money, then it's a bit less st. kambites said:
nickfrog said:
Can someone explain what's wrong with a M135i in the wet. I am no Blomqvist but having covered 400 miles in 2 days in one some of it on very wet roads, you'd have to have seriously dodgy inputs to crash it, lateral grip is immense. Or is 4wd a way to compensate for lack of smooth technique ?
People just seem to have this idea that RWD + rain = instant death. I constantly read that my car is "dangerously twitchy" (and other such rubbish) in the wet, but I drive it reasonably quickly in the rain all the time and have never had a problem (and I have far from god-like car control). kambites said:
pilchardthecat said:
You're missing step number one from the process - you first decide how much money you want to spend on a car, then you work out what the best one you can get is. You have it backwards - fix the budget first.
That's exactly the point, I do not decide "how much I want to spend", I decide what the maximum I will spend is. How much I want to spend is always £0.
Last time I bought a car, I went out with a budget of around £20k and almost ended up buying a £2k MX5.
Edited by kambites on Friday 20th September 11:01
I am in a similar position, i usually spend a small fraction of what i could spend, and that's without contemplating debt
Lots of respect for the performance dynamics of the BMW and I know it's down to personal preference, but I just couldn't live with the looks, it's really not very nice at all in my eyes!
I would also have thought that cars in this sector and those that buy them, do so, because they need some practicality in the equation, or why not just buy a sports car. On that front, the BMW scores poorly in the boot and rear legroom department.
I'd have the Audi, it just looks better (IMHO), it's more practical, some 4WD security and still provides enough in the driving department for most people I would say. Not sure, but I would argue it'll hold it's money better too.
2p spent.
I would also have thought that cars in this sector and those that buy them, do so, because they need some practicality in the equation, or why not just buy a sports car. On that front, the BMW scores poorly in the boot and rear legroom department.
I'd have the Audi, it just looks better (IMHO), it's more practical, some 4WD security and still provides enough in the driving department for most people I would say. Not sure, but I would argue it'll hold it's money better too.
2p spent.
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