RE: Fast should mean scary: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Ian_UK1 said:
Why would they need to? Statistics prove that the great majority of drivers believe they're 'above average' - think about that one!
Ha. I am definitely an above average driver...............if you include all those on the road (I should be as it is a big hobby).
Unfortunately.....in the group of people that matters (fellow enthusiasts).....I suspect I am decidedly lower than average!
I suppose looking on the bright side there is lots of room for improvement....
Hhhhmmm...interesting one.
I had a Caterham 1700 SuperSprint for over a decade (my first car in fact) which I only sold when I emigrated to Canada. 135bhp and I could nail it in 1st, 2nd and 3rd and still not be doing more than 90mph. It felt ridiculously fast, sounded amazing and was also incredibly enjoyable to drive really slowly.
On empty roads it was nigh on perfect. The only downside I found was with overtaking. That was when 260bhp to effortlessly dispatch the dawdling Volvo seemed very attractive. As the roads got busier so the effortless overtake became more attractive.
I nearly bought an R500 and it would have been interesting to have made the comparison. As it was, even after 30k miles in it, I never could make up my mind if it was the perfect amount of power or if it was under powered.
I also had a slammed 1960 VW split screen panel van. Slow as it was that was a huge hoot to drive. In addition I had a slammed 1979 bay window VW too - with a 130bhp 2.0l with big old carbs and Porsche Turbo brakes. Great fun trying to carry the speed through roundabouts.
And finally I also had a Scooby Turbo and an Audi S8 at the time. I really enjoyed driving them fast as well. Different fast but still fun. Driving to Tuscany with wife and 2 kids in the S8 at a steady 140mph was fun fast in a "conquering continents" kind of a way.
I don't know. There are so many variables. But if I had to pick one then the Caterham was definitely it. But with maybe just another 40bhp.... ;-)
I had a Caterham 1700 SuperSprint for over a decade (my first car in fact) which I only sold when I emigrated to Canada. 135bhp and I could nail it in 1st, 2nd and 3rd and still not be doing more than 90mph. It felt ridiculously fast, sounded amazing and was also incredibly enjoyable to drive really slowly.
On empty roads it was nigh on perfect. The only downside I found was with overtaking. That was when 260bhp to effortlessly dispatch the dawdling Volvo seemed very attractive. As the roads got busier so the effortless overtake became more attractive.
I nearly bought an R500 and it would have been interesting to have made the comparison. As it was, even after 30k miles in it, I never could make up my mind if it was the perfect amount of power or if it was under powered.
I also had a slammed 1960 VW split screen panel van. Slow as it was that was a huge hoot to drive. In addition I had a slammed 1979 bay window VW too - with a 130bhp 2.0l with big old carbs and Porsche Turbo brakes. Great fun trying to carry the speed through roundabouts.
And finally I also had a Scooby Turbo and an Audi S8 at the time. I really enjoyed driving them fast as well. Different fast but still fun. Driving to Tuscany with wife and 2 kids in the S8 at a steady 140mph was fun fast in a "conquering continents" kind of a way.
I don't know. There are so many variables. But if I had to pick one then the Caterham was definitely it. But with maybe just another 40bhp.... ;-)
Ian_UK1 said:
The unfortunate truth is that most drivers, despite a belief that they're the best thing since Schumacher, have absolutely no idea how to read the messages a car is sending them. They won't recognise the approach of the limit and will have no idea what to do once the car's limit is exceeded.
Not least because stability control, traction control, ABS, and all the rest of the electronic bottom-wipers do all that for 'em. RIGHT up until the point that Isaac Newton inevitably takes over, says "Nope, they're not helping you now..." and you demolish a reasonable swathe of scenery.[quote]For most people, only proper car control training will awaken them to the language of the car and empower them to control things at and beyond that limit. But most people don't bother with car control training. Why would they need to?
It's not about being scary it's about controlling it on the edge of grip getting it to slide and dance under you.
And that is why I have no interest in new cars, nor supercars
My supercharged MX5 with approx 200bhp / ton is perfect - fast enough to overtake dawdlers and with 195 tyres has enough grip but not too much
It also feels fast at 100+ rather than 150+
And that is why I have no interest in new cars, nor supercars
My supercharged MX5 with approx 200bhp / ton is perfect - fast enough to overtake dawdlers and with 195 tyres has enough grip but not too much
It also feels fast at 100+ rather than 150+
Kawasicki said:
The thing that confuses me is how people say modern hot hatches are more fun because they offer accessible fun, that they somehow allow fun while still being (almost) within the law. Yet the hot hatches I drive all seem to make a complete mockery of speed limits.
Perhaps they used to offer accessible fun. I recently had a ride in an S2 Rallye, and while the numbers on the dial were not huge, it felt much faster than it was. In comparison, the high powered modern hot hatches I've had were nowhere near as wild feeling. My EP3 was great fun to drive, but not scary, and was sufficiently modern enough to feel sedate even when doing 3 figure speeds if you were not pressing the car hard. Recently, I did my CBT and started my direct access course to get my bike licence. Riding a 125, a 14bhp beast, was a real eye opener. 60mph on a 125 feels faster, more wild and lairy than 120mph in a modern car, or at least is much more intense. I know it's different strokes for different folks, but to me, riding a bike, even a 125, is more fun than I've had driving or riding in any car, and way more visceral and exhilirating. I used to dream of owning a powerful Jap turbo car like an Impreza, Evo or Skyline, but in truth, these are not going to be any match for the life-affirming rush of a bike, while costing a bomb to run in comparison. I've had an epiphany, and I doubt I'll ever spend money on a car as anything more than transport again. I still love cars and appreciate them in the same way I appreciated bikes when I had never ridden one, but my money will always go on bikes from now on I think.
I said earlier I enjoy the power and acceleration of the TVR, and I do.
I've noticed a small minority who assume that "scary" means driving dangerously. Perhaps that's a reasonable interpretation and I can't speak for everyone here, but for my own part and probably most of the other TVR drivers contributing that I'd offer the term "very healthy respect" in place of "scary".
I do use the power, and I do get wheelspin which needs to be checked. I use the power on small B-roads by braking hard before tight bends incase there's a reason to stop then accelerating hard again out the other side. It lets me enjoy more acceleration actually than carrying speed round the corners would.
It's difficult not to respect a TVR. You'd have to be pretty crass not to be very aware of your fallability when driving it. It's like it takes your manly parts in a gentle grip when you get in, and when accelerating, cornering or braking firmly it gives a little squeeze and offers a reminder in your ear that "We're not going to hurt each other now are we?"
I've noticed a small minority who assume that "scary" means driving dangerously. Perhaps that's a reasonable interpretation and I can't speak for everyone here, but for my own part and probably most of the other TVR drivers contributing that I'd offer the term "very healthy respect" in place of "scary".
I do use the power, and I do get wheelspin which needs to be checked. I use the power on small B-roads by braking hard before tight bends incase there's a reason to stop then accelerating hard again out the other side. It lets me enjoy more acceleration actually than carrying speed round the corners would.
It's difficult not to respect a TVR. You'd have to be pretty crass not to be very aware of your fallability when driving it. It's like it takes your manly parts in a gentle grip when you get in, and when accelerating, cornering or braking firmly it gives a little squeeze and offers a reminder in your ear that "We're not going to hurt each other now are we?"
Kawasicki said:
I obviously exist in a separate reality. My reality is one where a mundane 520d might regularly exceed 100mph on a small B-road
I may well understand where you are coming from, and would enjoy driving and riding most cars and bikes, as I enjoy the act of driving/riding. Even a fairly low-powered, simple car can be pedalled along interesting roads at a reasonable lick by a keen, smooth driver -and it can be great fun.NB. My vehicles never exceed the posted speed limit, of course, especially on the back roads.
Kawasicki said:
while many Pistonheaders describe the car as slow. Exactly how fast do these people want to drive?
They want to think that they could and would drive the latest supercars and superbikes absolutely flat out around the roads of the UK. Interestingly, there was a thread on here within the last year or so that seemed to suggest that very, very few people on here ever went for a drive for the sake of it, very few took the scenic route and most, even those with fairly fast cars, didn't really drive them very hard.
ps. There are a lot of very expensive & very fast cars around where I live and work. Many, many are driven slowly and/or badly.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 14th November 20:42
I've often wondered if having a lesser car than lets say someone who can afford a stupendously fast car makes you any less a petrol head. No it doesn't the scope of car i feel just reflects how big your wallet is. Although typically a very fast car will cost a lot more than a cheap one (obviously).
But thats changing now even hot hatches are much more expensive to buy outright now than they were 15-20 years ago. Why? Finance being the biggest culprit but its also advanced tech hot hatches of old just had a big engine shoehorned in and a bigger brakes added et voila! Now you cant buy many hot hatches without being bombarded with go faster bits.
But thats changing now even hot hatches are much more expensive to buy outright now than they were 15-20 years ago. Why? Finance being the biggest culprit but its also advanced tech hot hatches of old just had a big engine shoehorned in and a bigger brakes added et voila! Now you cant buy many hot hatches without being bombarded with go faster bits.
You might laugh with all your TVRs, M3's, AMG's, but one of the most enjoyable, rewarding and, frankly terrifying cars I have driven on the road is my S3 Land Rover.
Hear me out.
68bhp, rear wheel drive with not much grip on Tarmac, top speed of 61 and 0 - 60 in about 120 seconds make it absolutely critical to drive way, way ahead of yourself, make sure you get lines as correct as possible and avoid slowing wherever possible. Get 1 corner wrong and you'll lose momentum for the next mile or two.
Contrast that with my 630 and it really doesn't matter if you cock up a line or have to brake a little heavily. Just give it a quick squirt and you're back to where you were.
Oh. The Landy also does outstanding do'nuts in its own length and is an absolute delight to drift a little when it's icy
Hear me out.
68bhp, rear wheel drive with not much grip on Tarmac, top speed of 61 and 0 - 60 in about 120 seconds make it absolutely critical to drive way, way ahead of yourself, make sure you get lines as correct as possible and avoid slowing wherever possible. Get 1 corner wrong and you'll lose momentum for the next mile or two.
Contrast that with my 630 and it really doesn't matter if you cock up a line or have to brake a little heavily. Just give it a quick squirt and you're back to where you were.
Oh. The Landy also does outstanding do'nuts in its own length and is an absolute delight to drift a little when it's icy
Very interesting.
Recently I have driven an NSX, 996 X51, Maserati 4200, 370Z, Maserati Merak, etc. All very capable cars - but no real thrill when going for it.
Early in the year I drove a 1948 Bentley Special. Jeez, what a blast. Frozen to bits, wobbly steering etc.. but sooo much fun at under 50 mph. Also a AH 3000 - much the same laughs with not a lot of speed.
It's all about perceived speed. How fast does a kart feel at 50mph? Or even a Caterfield?
I would love a "proper" Bentley, but don't have the necessary £500K+ for one. Perhaps the Kougar will be the answer when it is done? 300bhp and not a lot of weight with a very stiff chassis.
Recently I have driven an NSX, 996 X51, Maserati 4200, 370Z, Maserati Merak, etc. All very capable cars - but no real thrill when going for it.
Early in the year I drove a 1948 Bentley Special. Jeez, what a blast. Frozen to bits, wobbly steering etc.. but sooo much fun at under 50 mph. Also a AH 3000 - much the same laughs with not a lot of speed.
It's all about perceived speed. How fast does a kart feel at 50mph? Or even a Caterfield?
I would love a "proper" Bentley, but don't have the necessary £500K+ for one. Perhaps the Kougar will be the answer when it is done? 300bhp and not a lot of weight with a very stiff chassis.
Andy ap said:
I've often wondered if having a lesser car than lets say someone who can afford a stupendously fast car makes you any less a petrol head.
I enjoy driving and riding. We own normal cars that we are not precious about(prefer not to spend 10000s on a shiny German motor with massive wheels that I'd be worried about getting dirty/scratched), with some minor changes to enhance real-world driving. They are often driven with gusto.I own a middling-performance bike with some handling tweaks that gets ridden a fair bit.
I'm lucky enough to get to drive an MGBGT, which is fun to drive and a great laugh.
I appear to enjoy driving and riding more than most people and seek out experiences and opportunities to do them.
I also enjoy tweaking and fettling machines, which seems rare these days.
I would like to have a little sports car (Mk1/2 MX5, Mk3 MR2 or a 'classic'), but having to choose between them, a bike is probably more fun overall.
Edited by MC Bodge on Thursday 14th November 21:05
Spot on Mr Trent, as so many of us have said..
My "best" car, for that nigh - perfect mix of just enough power, brakes, roadholding & innate balance was a series 2 Porsche 944. Everything worked in harmony and you could drive it quickly but safely on most de-restricted roads.
I've owned more powerful/faster stuff since but they've not improved on the 944S2 as a daily driver. That was the last car I would occasionally slide round a corner on a wet or greasy UK public road, late at night & all quiet.
I'm not pining for the "old days", however. As others, again, have said, the modern electronic aids do keep things in check now that so much more power is available.
My "best" car, for that nigh - perfect mix of just enough power, brakes, roadholding & innate balance was a series 2 Porsche 944. Everything worked in harmony and you could drive it quickly but safely on most de-restricted roads.
I've owned more powerful/faster stuff since but they've not improved on the 944S2 as a daily driver. That was the last car I would occasionally slide round a corner on a wet or greasy UK public road, late at night & all quiet.
I'm not pining for the "old days", however. As others, again, have said, the modern electronic aids do keep things in check now that so much more power is available.
I don't think it's the acceleration which defines pace / scaryness / risk. And consequently it's not the power on it's own...
It's the grip and composure of modern performance cars:-
- A current-gen hot-hatch (Golf/Focus class) will quite happily keep up with a 1980s supercar, and I suspect will be substantially quicker through the corners and sharper on the brakes. Hell, 90s stuff like a cooking 993 or NSX would struggle to put clear air on a Megane RS or Focus Mk3 ST without some VERY determined pedalling by the owner.
- A new-gen Cayman-S or Lotus Exige S (note I'm not going near faster metal) will arguably eat a 355 for breakfast, point-to-point.
...and so at what point do you say "y'know what...I LIKE my licence, thanks, and at licence-friendly speeds this 991/R8/M3/GTR/Corvette is just plain boring. And I've not got the time or budget to regularly take it on track (voiding my warranty in the process, note, despite the mfr marketing it with lots of circuit time and N'ring comments)."
It's the grip and composure of modern performance cars:-
- A current-gen hot-hatch (Golf/Focus class) will quite happily keep up with a 1980s supercar, and I suspect will be substantially quicker through the corners and sharper on the brakes. Hell, 90s stuff like a cooking 993 or NSX would struggle to put clear air on a Megane RS or Focus Mk3 ST without some VERY determined pedalling by the owner.
- A new-gen Cayman-S or Lotus Exige S (note I'm not going near faster metal) will arguably eat a 355 for breakfast, point-to-point.
...and so at what point do you say "y'know what...I LIKE my licence, thanks, and at licence-friendly speeds this 991/R8/M3/GTR/Corvette is just plain boring. And I've not got the time or budget to regularly take it on track (voiding my warranty in the process, note, despite the mfr marketing it with lots of circuit time and N'ring comments)."
andybu said:
Spot on Mr Trent, as so many of us have said..
My "best" car, for that nigh - perfect mix of just enough power, brakes, roadholding & innate balance was a series 2 Porsche 944. Everything worked in harmony and you could drive it quickly but safely on most de-restricted roads.
I've owned more powerful/faster stuff since but they've not improved on the 944S2 as a daily driver. That was the last car I would occasionally slide round a corner on a wet or greasy UK public road, late at night & all quiet.
+ 1 , for me the E30 M3 was simply the best- same sort of generation as the 944.My "best" car, for that nigh - perfect mix of just enough power, brakes, roadholding & innate balance was a series 2 Porsche 944. Everything worked in harmony and you could drive it quickly but safely on most de-restricted roads.
I've owned more powerful/faster stuff since but they've not improved on the 944S2 as a daily driver. That was the last car I would occasionally slide round a corner on a wet or greasy UK public road, late at night & all quiet.
Accepted; I'm running a Jaguar XK Coupe at the moment; very nice GT car and a great long-distance hauler. As it happens the rear types are up for replacement next week so I gave it death late one night recently down my favourite B road. But, it's got so much electronics you can't switch off that it never loses composure. Just as you say.
I'm happy with it, to be clear. It does what I bought it to do. But for pure driving fun a proper Chapman Lotus Elan Sprint, circa late 60's would be far better. On the other hand, I would never, ever want to have any form of accident in one of those. I saw too many who did, back in the day.
I'm happy with it, to be clear. It does what I bought it to do. But for pure driving fun a proper Chapman Lotus Elan Sprint, circa late 60's would be far better. On the other hand, I would never, ever want to have any form of accident in one of those. I saw too many who did, back in the day.
Completely agree with the destination of the article.
I have a shed of a Clio 172 which is a hoot to drive flat out everywhere. I also have a tweaked Focus RS which rarely get used anywhere as it needs the space to stretch its legs that fewer and fewer roads can afford me, whether its cameras, traffic volume or deteriorating surfaces.
I enjoy driving the 172 more and its much slower and less nimble!
I have a shed of a Clio 172 which is a hoot to drive flat out everywhere. I also have a tweaked Focus RS which rarely get used anywhere as it needs the space to stretch its legs that fewer and fewer roads can afford me, whether its cameras, traffic volume or deteriorating surfaces.
I enjoy driving the 172 more and its much slower and less nimble!
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