RE: DiCaprio's Formula E team

[chrisw666]

Technomatt said:

Fortunately though, I don't use the constant 'one post per thread personal criticism with zero input' ...

Just negativity about something which has barely even started yet.

People like you hang around every single time that man makes some new development just willing things to fail, it's a very very unpleasant trait and one that isn't nice to see.

[McWigglebum4th]

Technomatt said:

AnotherClarkey said:

Technomatt said:

Maybe I can put it in slightly more simple terms for you.

The majority of consumers, with their fully functioning brains are not stupid enough to buy one.

Don't worry about it, you always use simple terms.

Fortunately though, I don't use the constant 'one post per thread personal criticism with zero input' ...

Emmm


This is a RACE series

Can i ask what the judderring fk does it have to do with consumers?


or to put it in another way

Company = Red bull F1 team
Cars sold last year = ZERO

Company = renault car company
Cars sold last year = thousands

So by your own standards

red bull are a TOTAL failure

[Technomatt]

chrisw666 said:

Technomatt said:

Maybe I can put it in slightly more simple terms for you.

The majority of consumers, with their fully functioning brains are not stupid enough to buy one.

I actually think you were touched inappropriately by an EV.

People will but them if they fit their needs and budgetary requirements. Most two vehicle households could manage with one EV and one normal car and as tech evolves cars will become more affordable and people who live in cities or have a predictable commute will use them and will put up with the limited range. You can cry and slate them all you like but they're here and part of our future.

Edited by chrisw666 on Thursday 12th December 11:44

Actually, you are correct in some ways there, apart from your use of the McWigglebum4th yokel type quote. The EV generally only appeals to 2 car households, or 'affluent' as described by a recent scathing UK Govt report.

However, the EV will not become significantly more affordable in the near term due to limitations in battery technology.

Legislation, grants and punitive ICE taxation may tip the balance of overall affordability for a minority, but the game is dynamic and EV residuals are shaping up to be dismal and sales remain poor. It's not a win-win for the EV Early Victims (EV²) with the landscape now staring to favour the Hybrid and REX.

The UK Govt Plc also pulled in about £38 billion in fuel and VED duty in 2012 and has already identified it needs to maintain that income. What they currently champion in public over green/CO2 issues will not be reflected in longer term policies, as they need to maintain the huge ICE tax revenue. Of course you won’t see that being declared in public.

[AnotherClarkey]

Meanwhile, back on topic, I find the Formula E idea very interesting. City centre racing in well matched cars may well be very good to watch and plays to the strengths of electric power. How a celebrity can choose to finance a racing team with his own cash and be derided for it is somewhat baffling.

I wonder how this thread got hijacked and turned in to yet another discussion of whether electric cars are suitable for mass market adoption? Let me guess....

[anonymous-user]

Technomatt said:

However, the EV will not become significantly more affordable in the near term due to limitations in battery technology.

^^Please state your source for this statement?

Technomatt said:

It's not a win-win for the EV Early Victims (EV²)

Anyone else want to start a game of "buzzword bingo"?? ;-)

Technomatt said:

with the landscape now staring to favour the Hybrid and REX.

"now"?? eh? You're about 5 years too late. The REEV is a "transient" device, it only exists to help consumers get over their range anxiety.In reality, most studies done by the OEMs suggest that REEV sales will initially make up a strong percentage of EV sales, but rapidly fall to almost zero when customers realise that they can actually manage fine with a ~100m daily range. (especially when the OEM includes preferential short term hire arrangements for EV customers (as BMW already do))
GM have published a lot of data for the Volt/Ampera and the customers basically don't ever use the ICE!

Technomatt said:

The UK Govt Plc also pulled in about £38 billion in fuel and VED duty in 2012 and has already identified it needs to maintain that income. What they currently champion in public over green/CO2 issues will not be reflected in longer term policies, as they need to maintain the huge ICE tax revenue.

For once you are actually correct about something. What EV's won't do is make motoring significantly cheaper than it currently is (which is very cheap comparatively) But what they will do is help limit the rate at which motoring gets more expensive. It's almost inevitable that road taxation will move from a fuel base tax to a usage based one at some point. Whilst we may not be at 'peak oil' the continued increase in world population will make ever great demands on our resources, and oil, with it's multitude of non transport useages will fall under ever increasing pressure. That pressure isn't something that can be avoided with an ICE engined car. If SHELL or whoever put 10ppl on the price of fuel, well you have only two choices 1)walk or 2) pay up. With a fuel agnostic transport system the flexibility of supply drives both more competition at a given price point, and the ability to invest yourself in your future energy security (ie solar panels on your roof etc). Yes, that WILL cost you money, but that money is being spent to secure your transport futures, not just being given to a greedy oil multinational or government institution etc!

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 12th December 12:48

[DonkeyApple]

Max_Torque said:

I know that your knowledge of EV's and hybrids stems from Google rather than an actual study of the market, but for your info:

Efficiency: Studies (inc my own, done for the governments Technology Strategy Board) show that currently (with the existing Generation infrastructure) an EV is on average 3x more efficient than a ICE powered vehicle, in terms of CO2/km and/or kWh/km. Used non optimally this falls to only about 1.2 as efficient, but optimally up to 8x as efficient (depending on drive cycle etc) The average value (3x) is based in actual UK car usage statistics.

Flexibility: Because EV's are fuel agnostic, they are significantly more flexible than ICE powered vehicles. With an ICE you have to give your money to SHELL or BP or whoever. With an EV, there a multiple routes to "fuelling" your vehicle. (Grid, local generation, local Solar/Wind, combined heat and power etc etc)

Empowerment: As legislation against pollutants and Co2 emissions continues to increase (which it will) EV's will allow private mass transport into city centres and other "Low emission" zones, where ICE vehicles are already taxed / prohibited etc

Cost effective: We are now pretty much through the first stages of "Early adoption" where costs are not comparable to a conventional ICE. Cars like the i3 are bringing the benefits of mass production to EV's and once that occurs the BOM cost for an EV is LESS than for an ICE (because they are much simpler mechanically). (10 years ago, you could have said the same about "smartphones" but if you had invested in those you would be a multimillionare now.........)

Obsolescence: Because the traction system in an EV is fuel agnostic (they don't care where there energy comes from to make the electricity they consume) they are actually a lot more "future proof" than ICE powertrains. In 10 years, current EV's could easily be retrofitted with an uptodat battery pack without completely re-engineering the rest of the car. Then there is the lack of service requirements. EV's don't need servicing, and that cost saving over 10 years will buy you a new battery!

Reliability: With only a couple of moving parts, EV's will be a lot more reliable that the extremely complicated and tightly tolleranced ICE required to meet modern emissions and efficiency limits. Current common rail diesel and direct injection gasoline engines can already "write off" a higher mileage second hand car if say the injectors need replacing, (or the high pressure fuel pump, the turbo, the gearbox, the DMF, the DPF, etc etc etc)).


It's easy to sit on your high horse and just spout out the multiple untruths and semitruths that a quick google throws up. But spend some time, and actually study the implications of EV's and it's clear that the future IS electric.

Average UK commute by car is less than 9 miles, so range isn't a viable issue.

It really does come down to current initial purchase prices plus current concerns over medium term residuals. Both are more than likely to be resolved over a relatively short period. A period probably accelerated considerably by the i3 if it becomes a success.

[DonkeyApple]

iloveboost said:

Leggy said:

The sooner they hurry up and perfect EV will mean more petrol for the rest us!

Every cloud a silver lining.

And fewer stboxes.

Re electric racing, I wonder if this would actually be a part solution to most UK circuits inability to monetise their full time capacities due to noise abatement rules?

[Technomatt]

AnotherClarkey said:

Meanwhile, back on topic, I find the Formula E idea very interesting. City centre racing in well matched cars may well be very good to watch and plays to the strengths of electric power. How a celebrity can choose to finance a racing team with his own cash and be derided for it is somewhat baffling.

I wonder how this thread got hijacked and turned in to yet another discussion of whether electric cars are suitable for mass market adoption? Let me guess....

Quality attempt at a bit of a recovery with a semi-on-topic comment interlaced with your usual personal jibes.

My on topic.... if DiCapo has an environmental agenda, he would be better placed fronting up Porsche with its new planet saving Panemera S e-Hybrid with zero VED, zero London congestion charge and sub 71 g/km output. Dig those 'green' calipers:

[chrisw666]

DonkeyApple said:

Re electric racing, I wonder if this would actually be a part solution to most UK circuits inability to monetise their full time capacities due to noise abatement rules?

Possibly but I'm sure that some other way to stop people having fun on private land would be found.

[AnotherClarkey]

Technomatt said:

Quality attempt at a bit of a recovery with a semi-on-topic comment interlaced with your usual personal jibes.

My on topic.... if DiCapo has an environmental agenda, he would be better placed fronting up Porsche with its new planet saving Panemera S e-Hybrid with zero VED, zero London congestion charge and sub 71 g/km output. Dig those 'green' calipers:

Why would he do that if he fancies funding a racing team?

[DonkeyApple]

chrisw666 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Re electric racing, I wonder if this would actually be a part solution to most UK circuits inability to monetise their full time capacities due to noise abatement rules?

Possibly but I'm sure that some other way to stop people having fun on private land would be found.

Tyre squeal would be the first issue, but just keep the track wet.

[chrisw666]

DonkeyApple said:

chrisw666 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Re electric racing, I wonder if this would actually be a part solution to most UK circuits inability to monetise their full time capacities due to noise abatement rules?

Possibly but I'm sure that some other way to stop people having fun on private land would be found.

Tyre squeal would be the first issue, but just keep the track wet.

Water and electricity. It would make things interesting.

[Technomatt]

Max_Torque said:

Technomatt said:

However, the EV will not become significantly more affordable in the near term due to limitations in battery technology.

^^Please state your source for this statement?

^^^^^^^
Sorry, not worth a proper reply. (Sound familiar?)

Looks like you are not actually versed in near term Li-ion battery development issues and the cost debate.

I’m still waiting for a reply from you on these previous key EV issues (with references):

Renault battery leasing costs: circa £90 per month (Renault UK).

Typical 3 year EV depreciation: 80% (CAP).

EV battery replacement costs: LEAF total replacement circa £10,000 (Nissan).

VW e-UP UK list price: £24250 before Govt grant. (VW UK).

[AnotherClarkey]

chrisw666 said:

Possibly but I'm sure that some other way to stop people having fun on private land would be found.

There could be some other great applications for electric power in motorsport. Hill climbing, sprints, trials and autotesting spring to mind (I imagine that an electric autotest car opens up some amazing possibilities)

[Technomatt]

DonkeyApple said:

Average UK commute by car is less than 9 miles, so range isn't a viable issue.

It really does come down to current initial purchase prices plus current concerns over medium term residuals. Both are more than likely to be resolved over a relatively short period. A period probably accelerated considerably by the i3 if it becomes a success.

Average buyer needs a car that does more than just a 9 mile commute, so range is a huge issue.

EV purchase prices are high, residuals are shaping up to be dismal. The i3 with its minimal EV sales compared to the REX, isn't going to re-define those current trends.

[McWigglebum4th]

Technomatt said:

Average buyer needs a car that does more than just a 9 mile commute, so range is a huge issue.

EV purchase prices are high, residuals are shaping up to be dismal. The i3 with its minimal EV sales compared to the REX, isn't going to re-define those current trends.

Yep the residuals are terrible

listen to this man

your EV is worthless

The battery pack will be ruined after 12 months

And to prove this point matt will now find me a nissian leaf for under 5 grand


hopefully

[Technomatt]

AnotherClarkey said:

There could be some other great applications for electric power in motorsport. Hill climbing, sprints, trials and autotesting spring to mind (I imagine that an electric autotest car opens up some amazing possibilities)

Yep, I can just see the Renault ZOE racing series shaping up right now......

A 4 lap quali session, then an 8 hour wait for a battery recharge followed by a 5 lap race at an average speed of 50 mph before the batteries expire.

Maybe they should just go for an endurance race and see who can creep round the circuit the longest and most efficiently. It would drive the spectators crazy with excitement.

[AnotherClarkey]

Technomatt said:

Yep, I can just see the Renault ZOE racing series shaping up right now......

A 4 lap quali session, then an 8 hour wait for a battery recharge followed by a 5 lap race at an average speed of 50 mph before the batteries expire.

Maybe they should just go for an endurance race and see who can creep round the circuit the longest and most efficiently. It would drive the spectators crazy with excitement.

I feel sorry for you. It must be miserable going through life with such a limited imagination and negative outlook.

To cheer you up, here is a link to a formula where electric vehicles are making significant progress:

http://www.formulastudent.com/formula-student/news...

Edited by AnotherClarkey on Thursday 12th December 14:24

[anonymous-user]

Technomatt said:

^^^^^^^
Sorry, not worth a proper reply. (Sound familiar?)

Looks like you are not actually versed in near term Li-ion battery development issues and the cost debate.

I’m still waiting for a reply from you on these previous key EV issues (with references):

Renault battery leasing costs: circa £90 per month (Renault UK).

Typical 3 year EV depreciation: 80% (CAP).

EV battery replacement costs: LEAF total replacement circa £10,000 (Nissan).

VW e-UP UK list price: £24250 before Govt grant. (VW UK).

Ok, i'll bite.

All those "cost" issues you have pointed out^^^, and they are only issues if you can't afford it, are due to low volumes. There is no fundamental "cost" issue with EVs. In fact, quite the opposite. In a recent study i did for a major UK manufacture, the BOM cost for an specifically developed EV was approx 2/3 of there conventional engined varient. And further to that, the development, validation and durability program cost / scope required to get that EV variant into production was less than 50% of the ICE engined variant.

Hence my point. You said "EV's are more expensive to make", I said (and a £180k study backs up my findings) that they aren't. Hence i wondered what your source was for your statement?


The problem with you anti-EV argument seems to be that it is entirely based on "early stage" adoption limitiations (and erroneous knowledge from Google and the like). With relatively expensive purchase price, and potentially poor residuals, that is too be expected. BUT the game is changing, and it's changing fast. Companies like Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche etc do not invest millions of dollars into things just for fun.

25 years ago, the you almost certainly would have called the man below an idiot:


Hows about now?



15 years ago, the first generation of the modern "high performance" diesel engines arrived on the market, and people said "why would you ever want one of those". A quick perusal of sales volumes in europe tells you that that was an incorrect assumption (and the resale value of all those petrol engined cars)


10 years ago, Toyota released the Prius. People once again said it'll never catch on. Well, check out the sales volumes for the prius, and it's residuals

5 years ago (nearly) the first production pure EV's became availaible to another round of "you'd have to be mad to buy one" shouts. Well, it's too early to tell if that's the case, but the evidence based on current OEM investments in EV tech suggests they are here to stay.


So my final point (and question) is that, luckily for you Matt, you are not (yet) being forced to buy and EV. You can stick your head in the ground and shout "you're all idiots" until you are blue in the face, and guess what. It' won't make the slightest difference.


So, to that final question, "What professional qualifications and experience do you have Matt to back up your statements that EVs are not the future of private mass transport?"

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 12th December 14:00

[DonkeyApple]

Technomatt said:

DonkeyApple said:

Average UK commute by car is less than 9 miles, so range isn't a viable issue.

It really does come down to current initial purchase prices plus current concerns over medium term residuals. Both are more than likely to be resolved over a relatively short period. A period probably accelerated considerably by the i3 if it becomes a success.

Average buyer needs a car that does more than just a 9 mile commute, so range is a huge issue.

EV purchase prices are high, residuals are shaping up to be dismal. The i3 with its minimal EV sales compared to the REX, isn't going to re-define those current trends.

Range isn't an issue for a significant number of car owners. Average commute by car is less than 9 miles. Just study the Govt data on social and business car usage, I found it very revealing as it really does show that very, very few people in the UK travel on a daily basis in excess of the range of the crappest EV.

EV purchase prices have already fallen to be close to their comparable ICE product, as can be seen with the i3 pricing v 120D pricing. Quite a significant fall in just a couple of years. Trend is down.

REX will easily outsell EV for first few years and primarily because of the mis perception regarding personal daily driven distance and overall weekly useage etc. So, one can expect the ratio to shift over time as the market begins to understand its own useage.

Residuals are obviously going to remain an issue until a product such as the i3 (if it manages to do so) sells in sufficient numbers so as to be able to define a credible market. Also, the subsidies which are available to new buyers but not to used will also be a negative factor, as are all subsidies, but these will be phased out.

The reality, whether you like it or not, is that for a very significant number of UK car users the concept of an EV is better than ICE until you factor in one primary and very significant detail and that is the initial cost of purchase. So, as far as I am concerned the jury is only out on the product based on whether market forces, competition and volumes contrice to lower prices.