RE: Tesla launches 691hp Model S P85D

[Aeroresh]

Max_Torque said:

Beware the good old electric car "torque" numbers with no mention of where that torque is measure and how many gears the car has to leverage that torque....

(ie 700lbft at the driving wheels is easy, 700lbft at the crank, followed by a 3:1 1st gear and a 3:1 final drive ratio is a whole other kettle of fish)


You need to have you electric machine behind a multispeed gearbox, just like you do with an ICE, to really be able to leverage the full performance possible!

I think you need to drive one...no idea about the internal gubbins but even the previous p85 s could give you whiplash even whatever the speed. This will be something else.

[McWigglebum4th]

A Scotsman said:

McWigglebum4th said:

What advantage does a fuel cell have over an EV?

Faster refuelling. Takes no more time to fill up than a conventional vehicle. Issue at the moment though is the same as EVs - not enough refuellers. However, inevitable that the convenience of the fuel cell will drive battery based vehicles out of the market for all but perhaps short distance work.

faster then 10 seconds?

As in the real world where people don't drive 500 miles a day to work and back that is how long a recharge will take


As that is how long it will take me to plug the car in and walk into my house to do something more useful like drinking beer

[TransverseTight]

Max_Torque said:

Beware the good old electric car "torque" numbers with no mention of where that torque is measure and how many gears the car has to leverage that torque....

(ie 700lbft at the driving wheels is easy, 700lbft at the crank, followed by a 3:1 1st gear and a 3:1 final drive ratio is a whole other kettle of fish)


You need to have you electric machine behind a multispeed gearbox, just like you do with an ICE, to really be able to leverage the full performance possible!

The older RWD P85 has over 4000lb/ft at the rear wheels due to a 9.something reduction ratio.

The figures you are reading are at the motor torque. They have a stripped down rolling chassis in the tesla shop at West Drayton. Its staggering to think that something about the size of a waste paper basket can develop so much power (450hp).

They don't want a gear box. They tried it in the roadster and it kept breaking them. What they've done ib the new none P 85 and 60 with the lower power motors it gear them differently. So the rear has faster acceleration on the front has better efficiency for cruising.

As batteries get lighter and cheaper who knows where EVs will end up. Theres stuff in the labs (not Teslas) called solid state batteries which have come about by matemetical models saying... forget what we know already. What is the best shape, (flat, cylunder or spehere) particle size and shape and what merials should we use. The prototypes are printable layers of chemistry. They reckon they can hit $100/kWh and iirc over 1kw/kg. So a 200kWh battery would cost $2000 weigh 200kg and get you over 600 mile range in the current tesla (as it would be 700kg lighter).

Still until you can go into your local tesla service centre / currys and order the 200kWh upgrade pack... they are vapour ware.

One thing i noted in the shop... therwle plenty of room for a second motor at the rear . I kind of think the auto pilot shows where are heading. Aparrently it can tell the difference between a tree a child and a dog. ...at 150mph speed limits haven't changed for 50 years because they have to cater for the lowest standards if driver. What if we end up worth a new era of 150mph cruisers. Nice.

[AndyDubbya]

RoverP6B said:

I go by the handle of RoverP6B because I had one...

...Yes, I am complaining that it is too fast, like most performance cars these days...

...I have had and do have problems with smartphones, iDrive and similar.

Have you considered that maybe a Tesla isn't for you?

[mrclav]

AndyDubbya said:

RoverP6B said:

I go by the handle of RoverP6B because I had one...

...Yes, I am complaining that it is too fast, like most performance cars these days...

...I have had and do have problems with smartphones, iDrive and similar.

Have you considered that maybe a Tesla isn't for you?

I've read what RoverP6B has to say and I realise that he represents an old world/luddite view, one that is becoming increasingly irrelevant in this new age of (motoring) technology. If you have problems with smartphones/iDrive/touchscreens/any form of new tech etc then this car is definitely not for you. Humans evolve, society evolves and technology evolves - you can either choose to live (and die) in the past or embrace the future with open arms. I personally, and evidently many others given Tesla's success, choose to do the latter.

So you once owned a Rover P6B; that car is a dinosaur which has no significance to anyone under the age of 50 and has as much relevance to modern motoring in 2014 as a Model T Ford; my only connection to them is seeing them in an old TV cop show or archive footage (and I always thought they were hideously ugly to boot). Face it, your opinion may be valid but in the face of undeniable progress it mean less than ever.

[bodhi]

mrclav said:

've read what RoverP6B has to say and I realise that he represents an old world/luddite view, one that is becoming increasingly irrelevant in this new age of (motoring) technology. If you have problems with smartphones/iDrive/touchscreens/any form of new tech etc then this car is definitely not for you. Humans evolve, society evolves and technology evolves - you can either choose to live (and die) in the past or embrace the future with open arms. I personally, and evidently many others given Tesla's success, choose to do the latter.

So you once owned a Rover P6B; that car is a dinosaur which has no significance to anyone under the age of 50 and has as much relevance to modern motoring in 2014 as a Model T Ford; my only connection to them is seeing them in an old TV cop show or archive footage (and I always thought they were hideously ugly to boot). Face it, your opinion may be valid but in the face of undeniable progress it mean less than ever.

Possibly one of the classiest posts ive ever seen on PH, and thats saying something. Making reference to a chaps death, then slating his choice of car, on a website dedicated to car people, is frankly beyond the pale, and just confirms my theory that EV drivers are about to become even more unbearable than hybrid drivers.

For the record, I am quite a long way under 50, and passed a P6B earlier today, and had full reapect for the (considerably under 50 year old) chap driving it. Looked in beautiful condition and made a lovely noise - appeared full of character, a feature of which the Tesla has precisely zero.

I look forward to PH in 30 years time, when the Tesla is as modern as the P6B someone posting about your Betamax EV and slating you for wanting to keep it on the road. The Germans have a word for this, I'm sure you can use some of your wonderful new technology to look it up - if the lack of new software updates for your domestic appliance hasnt made it unuseable.

[FreiWild]

Max_Torque said:

So, if you spend you time doing 0-60 runs one after the other, you should buy something different!

I would suggest this:


For the rest of us, driving in the real world, i think the Powertrain performance will be just fine ;-)

I get your point and I was just relaying what I read, which is that the power, when warm is substanially reduced which might catch you out during an overtake. That is at least how they described their concerns.

[A Scotsman]

McWigglebum4th said:

faster then 10 seconds?

As in the real world where people don't drive 500 miles a day to work and back that is how long a recharge will take


As that is how long it will take me to plug the car in and walk into my house to do something more useful like drinking beer

Very droll. A pointless comparison though..

[kambites]

A Scotsman said:

Very droll. A pointless comparison though..

It would be an absolutely apt comparison for me. One of the significant draws of EVs is that I don't have to waste time going to petrol stations all the bloody time. An EV would be vastly more convenient and flexible than an ICE powered car for my usage.

[A Scotsman]

kambites said:

It would be an absolutely apt comparison for me. One of the significant draws of EVs is that I don't have to waste time going to petrol stations all the bloody time. An EV would be vastly more convenient and flexible than an ICE powered car for my usage.

So you're quite prepared to have to leave it charging, unusable for a few hours.. That's a new meaning of "convenient" I've not come across.

[kambites]

A Scotsman said:

So you're quite prepared to have to leave it charging, unusable for a few hours.. That's a new meaning of "convenient" I've not come across.

Strangely enough, I do this thing called "sleeping" which is a perfect time to charge it.

[lamboman100]

J4CKO said:

lamboman100 said:

Ugly, unexciting, a pain to recharge, cr*p badge, overpriced.

Ahm oot.

Ugly, surely that is subjective, I think it looks pretty good, certainly no worse than its conventional competition.

Unexciting, what apart from it being a new dawn in transport and really quick ?

Paint to recharrge, plug it in, er, thats it ?

Crap Badge ? why, because its not german, it isnt like they have had much of a chance to establish a brand over 100 years is it, plus I think a lot of people that the Tesla name now does have some serious kudos.

Overpriced, maybe, but the running costs offset that

Looks like a cheap Honda barge.

Sounds like a milkfloat.

Electric engines are not sustainable for world car production longterm. Not enough lithium.

Takes too long to recharge.

"Tesla" badge sounds like it should be making lightbulbs or something.

£100k for a £20k Honda yawnfest lookalike is bonkers.

[Hazman123]

Tesla have done nothing to move e.v. Battery tech on at all; all they've done is package up a bunch of Panasonic computer batteries exquisitely well. IMO they are trying to handicap fuel cell tech by establishing a dominant position for the e.v. By providing the infrastructure, and free access to patents - fair do's in a capitalist society. The problem is that while e.v. is, as has been said, the perfect solution for 95% of journeys, what about the 5% of the time you need to go 200 miles+? BMW are doing the car hire thing, but at the end of the day, we all want our own personal motors just to hop into and go where we want. A £100k second car is only an option to some (or even a £20k one come to that).
Until battery tech has a massive leap in energy density, which hasn't been achieved since the 70's discovery of li tech, despite massive resources being thrown at it, I think i.c. is only option until fuel cell...

Edited by Hazman123 on Saturday 11th October 22:12

Edited by Hazman123 on Saturday 11th October 22:23

[kambites]

And where, exactly, do you intend to get this hydrogen from?

At least there are various research projects looking promising for battery improvements. As far as I'm aware, no-one is getting anywhere at all with efficient hydrogen generation? They've got the get the efficiency to at least 50% to make it viable; at the moment the best we can manage is, what, 10%?

Edited by kambites on Saturday 11th October 22:10

[Hazman123]

kambites said:

And where, exactly, do you intend to get this hydrogen from?

At least there are various research projects looking promising for battery improvements. As far as I'm aware, no-one is getting anywhere at all with efficient hydrogen generation? They've got the get the efficiency to at least 50% to make it viable; at the moment the best we can manage is, what, 10%?

Edited by kambites on Saturday 11th October 22:10

Just one of many avenues being explored: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26204-waters...

[kambites]

Hmm. That sounds far more "pie in the sky" than the current battery research which is "promising" five times the current energy density at a fifth of the current price. And I'd still have to go to a fuel station to get the damned stuff unless it can be scaled down to be efficient in a home garage.

Definitely EV for me.

[Hazman123]

I hear you kambites, but realistically, the battery development has been the holy grail to solve many, many problems for well over 40 years, so an enormous amount of resources have been thrown at the problem during that time, with only minor steps forward in efficiency. With this in mind I think it unlikely that a major step forward is imminent.
H tech on the other hand is only very recent, as there has been v. small demand for the element(up until now it's been a byproduct of oil refining). Now this is looking like changing, small amounts of research are more likely to give rise to big leaps in technology.

Edited by Hazman123 on Saturday 11th October 23:01

[Mr Gear]

Hazman123 said:

I hear you kambites, but realistically, the battery development has been the holy grail to solve many, many problems for well over 40 years, so an enormous amount of resources have been thrown at the problem during that time, with only minor steps forward in efficiency. With this in mind I think it unlikely that a major step forward is imminent.
H tech on the other hand is only very recent, as there has been v. small demand for the element. Now this is looking like changing, small amounts of research are more likely to give rise to big leaps in technology.

If we ever get a production hydrogen car, it will definitely just be a battery electric car with a hydrogen 'range extender'.

There's no way it would run without a decent battery to level the supply and demand of electrons.

[daytona365]

Who's going to be mug enough to buy something like that ?

[TransverseTight]

Hazman123 said:

Tesla have done nothing to move e.v. Battery tech on at all; all they've done is package up a bunch of Panasonic computer batteries exquisitely well. IMO they are trying to handicap fuel cell tech by establishing a dominant position for the e.v. By providing the infrastructure, and free access to patents - fair do's in a capitalist society. The problem is that while e.v. is, as has been said, the perfect solution for 95% of journeys, what about the 5% of the time you need to go 200 miles+? BMW are doing the car hire thing, but at the end of the day, we all want our own personal motors just to hop into and go where we want. A £100k second car is only an option to some (or even a £20k one come to that).
Until battery tech has a massive leap in energy density, which hasn't been achieved since the 70's discovery of li tech, despite massive resources being thrown at it, I think i.c. is only option until fuel cell...

Normally i like ripping people's argument to sheds when they haven't either thought or done any googling to back up thier thoughts before posting. In your case i can't even be bothered. A couple of things to google for you... gigafactory, tesla model s sales and profit margin, tesla battery pack design and supercharger. And also look for some graphs of year on year battery improvements.
Besides, Telsa aren't a battery manufacturer they buy batteries as a systems integrator. Who also make electric motors. They are technology neutral on what provides the electrons.

I've watched fuel cells since 1999 when i took a punt and bought shares in ballad power systems. BLDP on NASDAQ. Ive yet to see any reason why giving them to charity as a dead loss in 2005 wasn't a mistake. Even if they can find a way to make fuel cells cheaper and the infrastructure cheaper then you are still faced with the fact that starting with electrons sticking them in a battery and pulling them back out is vastly more efficient than trying to manufacture distribute and store hydrogen and then convert it back to electricity. What i mean by that is that hydrogen can never be cheaper than batteries both on capital cost or running costs. Most of the electric infrastructure we need is already there. Just the out and about rather than home charging is what's needed.

Don't get me started in Vehicle to Grid peak shaving and how EVs ( especially those with large batteries) can bring down the price of electricity whilst making their owner a few grand a year, washing their batteries out a bit quicker, but still making a profit in the process. No gov subsidy needed. The wholesale price of electric frequency balancing services at 4pm till 8pm sometimes hits £1/kWH! That goes on everyone's bill.