RE: Porsche not perfect shocker: PH Blog
Discussion
You and the others that say this stuff are so sure of yourselves. Have you driven an MX-5? We owned one for 3 years and at speed it was as unrefined as my race car was when it was road legal, the little 1.2 Panda I had a couple of years back was better in NVH terms on fast roads by a very large margin. Mazda sold those cars in huge numbers so sorry I just don't buy the line that people will not buy a focused car that has worse NVH than typical modern euroboxes.
The very narrow cabin and huge sills have always been an issue on the Elise/Exige though, I guess for some this is an instant dislike whereas for others they get used to it and don't mind it.
The very narrow cabin and huge sills have always been an issue on the Elise/Exige though, I guess for some this is an instant dislike whereas for others they get used to it and don't mind it.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The Elise to my mind isn't a Porsche competitor, you couldn't really use one as a daily to do any sort of mileage. The Evora is a totally different proposition from an Elise, and I think that's one of the issues it has, if PH is anything to go by, many people seem to think that its just a big Elise, but as an ownership and daily use proposition it is totally different and really takes the fight to Porsche far more than those of you who haven't driven one seem to think.The problem to my mind is that Lotus singularly fail to get this message across, and cannot match the Porsche marketing machine and brand visibility.
As I have said before, in my case I was going to buy a 997 gen 2, I had tested one for 3 days and then a Cayman for 3 days, I hadn't even considered an Evora and knew little about them, I just happened to see one for sale on PH through random chance. I did some research, I went and drove one the day after I handed back the 997, and from the first turn of the wheel is was pretty much a done deal, I had decided within 20 minutes.
Wife, loved the 997, when she saw the Evora she said "we can't possibly afford that its way out of our price range"
This is an interesting take on how random people generally see the Evora TLF Peoples Reactions to your Evora
blueg33 said:
ORD said:
RobM77 said:
The answer to Phantom's quandary is of course to buy a Lotus Evora instead
Can I have an exciting engine?
Nope - a forced induction Toyota V6.
But the car is at least the newest and best, right?
Um. Nah. Pretty much the same car just re-skinned every few years.
And what about those back seats?
Purely decorative. Even worse than the 911 ones.
Oh. But it's surely very light, what with being a Lotus?
Nah. Despite being glued together and made of old bottle tops, it weighs pretty much the same as the much larger Porsche.
The Evora is an embarrassment, unfortunately.
Doubt it.
- It rides well - very well, by modern standards.
- It steers very nicely - crisply, responsively, but (suprisingly) without as much true feedback as you'd expect from a Lotus - decent (good by modern standards), but not great, unfortunately.
- It's got very good poise - doesn't get thrown off-line easily or get unsettled easily. Can see it being a faithful car to hustle along.
- The internal fit-and-finish was good - a massive step-up for Lotus, albeit I suspect someone used to a Porsche might find fault and the ergonomics were a little haphazard in some ways.
However:-
- The n/a engine is dull. For a 6-pot it's exceptionally dull - I'd rate the BMW N52 as more characterful, responsive and sounding better, let alone a Mezger 6, a BMW S54 or the NSX C30/C32, all of which are stunning creations. This was THE big let-down for me...a supercar HAS to have a super engine!!!
- The gearbox was OK - nothing to write home about, it wasn't Elise-poor for sure but Honda, Porsche and BMW needn't worry... I'm told the 400 is much improved...but compared to what?
- The visibility is woeful...pretty poor even by modern standards - like the 370Z, you've almost nothing between 90-degrees sideways and the letterbox behind you. I hate this about cars...really unhelpful.
- The packaging isn't great...as mentioned the rear-seats are a joke - almost unusable behind the driver, in all honesty.
- You can feel the weight/height of the V6 behind you when you start pushing on...worse than the NSX, which has a slight tendency to roll-oversteer if you're not aware of it.
This was an early car and I've no doubt they've improved it along the way, but I came away wondering where all the progress had been made in 20 years...
PS - agree 100% with all the comments about advertising / marketing / reputation 'maintenance'.
PPS - sorely tempted to try an Exige V6 at some point...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
As Blueg says, an Evora is a car to take the fight to a Cayman or a 911. It is useable, practical and at least as comfortable and even refined at them.I don't see an Elise really as a "normal" Porsche competitor. I think the average Elise/Exige driver is someone who would only look at a Porsche RS if they were to buy one. In many ways, I see the car as a practical Caterham. The sort of car that you can take the missus out in, go shopping then take on a trackday and it completely entertain. It can also be used year round and parked anywhere.
The electric steering is a massive negative for me with regards to Porsche - I am certainly not against them, love the history and my next car will no doubt be a 911 of some description. It will however only be in addition to the Lotus and most probably one built before 1998.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Well, I didn't say anything abouth bad-mouthing or bigging up, though people do fall into clear camps - as I read it.I did say that there are few contributors to this type of thread, that's noteworthy I think.
I also hold the view that Porsche focus on market share, which means GT comfort and toys, and I find that sad as I believe Porsche can build excellent sports cars. I don't blame Porsche but lament the lack of interest in sports cars.
This is especially true when someone will suffer a hideous ride because of the right badge not because of a passion for the car's (possible) ability. Journalists don't help either - wanting too much 'sport' from a daily and too much weighty comfort from a sports car.
Robert Elise said:
Pork is sadly mostly a GT and bling car these days, and that is sad. Sad that more people don't value driver's cars, because Porsche could make them...
Have you actually driven a Porsche sportscar?If so, please let us know which one and what it was about the experience which made you conclude it was not a driver's car.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Have you actually driven a Porsche sportscar?
If so, please let us know which one and what it was about the experience which made you conclude it was not a driver's car.
Even you state 'Porsche Sportscar'.If so, please let us know which one and what it was about the experience which made you conclude it was not a driver's car.
Most of my experience is in the standard models from the early eighties onwards. 911, Cayman and Boxsters.
I like them a lot, always have. It's just I believe they've gotten too isolated and heavy (whether actual weight or not) for my tastes. The DNA is there and I know the engineers are great, but the market wants something else.
My experience of GT3s is very limited, though I liked it. A lot. But then those are increasingly limited edition models.
I wish there was a market where Porsche felt they could make a lightweight roadster for example.
It's late at night and I've provoked some aggressive tones.
I'll get my coat.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Agreement. Oz, Any fantasy garage has to include a Porsche. For me it would be air cooled, not necessarily a 993 esp for road use.
Character over tech and times.
My preferred modern would be a Cayman. GT4 sounds bang on for the track too, but they're limited numbers.
My problem is with the public and the resultant std car.
Robert Elise said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Have you actually driven a Porsche sportscar?
If so, please let us know which one and what it was about the experience which made you conclude it was not a driver's car.
Even you state 'Porsche Sportscar'...The DNA is there and I know the engineers are great, but the market wants something else...If so, please let us know which one and what it was about the experience which made you conclude it was not a driver's car.
I'll get my coat.
Edited by chelme on Wednesday 19th August 23:42
chelme said:
Robert Elise said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
Have you actually driven a Porsche sportscar?
If so, please let us know which one and what it was about the experience which made you conclude it was not a driver's car.
Even you state 'Porsche Sportscar'...The DNA is there and I know the engineers are great, but the market wants something else...If so, please let us know which one and what it was about the experience which made you conclude it was not a driver's car.
I'll get my coat.
Edited by chelme on Wednesday 19th August 23:42
The non-GT Porsches are sanitised for those of us who want a raw driving experience. I don't think anyone is saying they are not good driver's cars, particularly given modern engineering and design constraints, just that they are far from an Elise in areas some of us look for, namely steering feel, chassis ability and even looks.
I am happy to give up some practicality for a car that for me absolutely nails what in want in a sports car.
Porsche of course known their market and are just as likely to be driven by someone trading up from a TT or Golf which is why they sell so well. Those sorts of buyers don't need to make many extta compromises to have a Porsche badge.
They won't want a Lotus when they see the height of the sill, that it's made of plastic and that it doesn't have sat nav.
Personally I yearn to own a Porsche. But it will be a 911, be either air cooled or have a GT3 or RS badge, won't be a 991 and I will keep my Elise for when I want an exhilarating drive in something properly lightweight and focused.
Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 20th August 08:27
chelme said:
I think you should, because clearly the 'market' you refer to is buying Porsches left, right and centre and ignoring the Lotus.
I do find it strange that many Porsche owners suggest that Lotus' route to success is to go toe to toe with Porsche given the shoestring resources the group lives on currently. It would be rather sad, if trying to increase market share meant that Lotus turned into a down-rent version of Porsche and lost the qualities that make their existing cars amazing in many ways.Edited by chelme on Wednesday 19th August 23:42
Just because the market wants something, it doesn't mean that the market is right from the perspective of what makes an involving drivers car, given at present the market appears to value bling, soft interior plastics, complicated electronic everything, perceived quality and 'will it impress the neighbours'.
To add to the Lotus owner confessions, I too will probably own a 911 at some point, but I don't think it will be later than a 996 and the only current model Porsche I would be likely to buy is the new Spyder (other than the sold-out GTx models it goes without saying).
Interested to hear what Cmoose says about the 991. I suppose it's right that the underlying car (chassis, engine, transmission (if you like PDK)) is excellent. But it feels very noticeably 'worse' to me than the 997. It's true that you could say the same about 997 v 996, but I think the jump to the 991 is quite big.
It feels a much bigger car, although it isn't. It is too comfortable and refined. It feels absurdly planted, which I don't see as a strength given that the 911 isn't supposed to feel mid-engined but a bit different. The interior is also truly horrendous - it's so 'Audi Saloon By Numbers' that it makes my soul bleed. It's pretty much the same interior as in the Panamera and Cayenne - nothing 'sporty' about it at all.
But, as Cmoose says, a lot of this could be undone quite easily and you would be left with a great car. If I had money to burn, I expect I could make a better car out of the 991 than the 997, but for me the earlier car wins hands down comparing them as they sit on the forecourt. By contrast, I don't really like the 996, and not just because it mings - it feels old without being a classic (although I really like the interior).
It feels a much bigger car, although it isn't. It is too comfortable and refined. It feels absurdly planted, which I don't see as a strength given that the 911 isn't supposed to feel mid-engined but a bit different. The interior is also truly horrendous - it's so 'Audi Saloon By Numbers' that it makes my soul bleed. It's pretty much the same interior as in the Panamera and Cayenne - nothing 'sporty' about it at all.
But, as Cmoose says, a lot of this could be undone quite easily and you would be left with a great car. If I had money to burn, I expect I could make a better car out of the 991 than the 997, but for me the earlier car wins hands down comparing them as they sit on the forecourt. By contrast, I don't really like the 996, and not just because it mings - it feels old without being a classic (although I really like the interior).
chrispj said:
highway said:
I still don't like PASM. Ride becomes far too hard for road use. I'd rather have a conventional set up designed to work on the road.
In the spirit of ORD and Ozzie derailing every Lotus thread, I hear that Lotus are still quite good at a conventional suspension set-up...http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-carrera/...
SS7
ORD said:
I don't really like the 996, and not just because it mings - it feels old without being a classic (although I really like the interior).
Interesting statement, most people slate the 996 for it's interior but prefer the drive. Even EVO had to conclude in a group 911 feature a few years ago that the 996 was still actually very good & rated it higher than the later 997's.Luckily we're all different
NJH said:
The discussion about engines is bizarre when you think about it. The very reason why boxsters are so cheap and until recently the 996, was because everyone believed the cars are very expensive to run and maintain + the minority of car enthusiasts seemed pretty well informed that there are some significant weaknesses with those engines. Meanwhile the Toyota engined Lotus's have rock solid residuals and if its the more simple elise/exige cars a rep for reasonable running costs. This all turns on its head somewhat the blx spouted on the net about who is and who isn't a quality car manufacturer, I can still remember back in 2000 seeing a then only 18 month old 996 with rusted door latches and a couple of years later many stories of that era of cars with rotted out rads etc. Yet the cars way back which were built to massive engineering margins had huge panel gaps, interiors which would fall apart all over the place, simply unacceptable "quality" by modern standards but those cars could take a beating like nothing else ever made by anyone. When people talk about quality in these discussions I can only conclude they are really only talking about perception, and that perception is based entirely on brand image.
I think I can add something to this. We bought our 2003 986S back in 2007 for £21k IIRC. At the time I was choosing between this and an Elise 111R, which I really did fancy at the time (and covet still).
As our weekend/holiday car is very much a purchase for both myself and my wife, I knew she would prefer the creature comforts of the Boxster over the Elise, so this was chosen, pretty much for these reasons, and I do still miss not having had a 111R.
Some 8 years on, our car is worth what, £8k and the 111R that we could have purchased at the time is still worth possibly £10k more? A bit of a bitter pill to swallow.
In the meantime our car has had to have a bit of dough thrown at it - it seems every 18/24 months it needs a grand throwing at it. It's just had another grand thrown at it last month, courtesy of a second set-up session at Center Gravity with numerous suspension arms and bushes being required.
Previously it has had several sets of brakes, corrosion through lack of use being a proper PITA. I've also had a ceramic IMS bearing fitted. The RMS was address by a previous owner.
However, it's now 12 years old and has done 70k miles. Everything works, including the AC which required it's first regas last month. Everything works, and it is a lovely, supple drive imo. I love it's compromise of ride and handling, I love the sound of that flat 6. There is no rust on the bodywork, anywhere that I'm aware of, not even through a stone chip.
It uses no oil, it has an easy 300 mile range when not caning it (which indeed I do when in the car alone). We've come to love the luggage carrying capacity, meaning 2-week holidays are easy.
We've got a great adventure forthcoming (all being well). We're marshaling on a week-long classic car regularity rally in the the Franch Alps and |Italian lakes region. We're possibly going to be tackling most major central european passes. We'll be staying on for a week afterwards. Our car will comfortably allow us to carry 2-weeks luggage up front, and the rear boot will carry our marshaling gear - seats, stakes, boards, signs, clip boards, coats, paraphanalia, my laptop, our 'electics bag' full of chargers and music machines, reading material for 2 weeks etc etc. All firmly and safey locked away in 2 boots, meaning no crap in the cabin.
The car will lope across autoroutes in AC and cruise controlled comfort; It will tackle the mountain passes with aplomb, with flat 6 wailing (and with a need to leap-frog the event to get to another marshalling point, we will be doing this) and then at other times we'll be ambling along roof down, looking up in awe at those fabulous mountains. If it gets too hot the roof can come up and down without stopping.
I do know that as lovely as an a 111R would be, and their residuals are fantastic, as a car it simply doesn't have this breadth of talent and nor does much else either imo.
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