RE: Aston Red Bull hypercar confirmed
Discussion
PhillipM said:
I do love how on PH all the posters complaining about the engineering pedigree of the commenters who are critisising/finding flaws with a subject, are always the ones with even less pedigree....
Who are ironically criticising/finding flaws with Adrian Newey, who has more engineering pedigree than any of them. Go figure.PhillipM said:
I do love how on PH all the posters complaining about the engineering pedigree of the commenters who are critisising/finding flaws with a subject, are always the ones with even less pedigree....
Remember this is UK 2016, it is a Human Right to have an opinion and thanks to TOWIE we know we have to ram it down other people throat till they leave the thread so we can Win the Internet :-)Lets be sensible, oh ok... not really-
Passengers. 2 people will fit in a Caterham, therefore 2 people will fit in this... will they be comfortable? Who cares, it seats two as stated, no room for debate.
Performance. Can you make a car that's faster than an LMP1 car... well obviously yes (its not easy if you also want it to look pretty) but yes.
Powertrain. Can you build a 1000hp NA V12 hybrid? Yes.
Why are people questioning this car then? Simply- because every 2-3weeks someone launches a "New Super Car" with 12 gazillion BHP that does 300mph and only a tiny percentage ever appear. Just look at the work VW, Mclaren, Ferrari and Porsche have had to do to make their hypercars fast, road legal and manufacturable.
The question is- do Aston Martin have the time and money to build what Newey has claimed- Low weight is not their forte but can be done, albeit very expensive and tricky if you also want 1000bhp. 1000bhp is possible but again tricky and expensive if you want a sexy, slippery exterior that's very small. Small is possible if you package the whole car to within an inch of its life but that is tricky and expensive.
And this car will be ready in 2018?
Basically, we've seen so many "Tricky and Expensive" Supercar designs that where "Due in 18months" that never happened or met the claimed spec its becoming hard to be impressed and wowed... if it does then Yippee! :-)
I think it looks Epic and might be Biblically quick, I hope it comes to fruition and I will be gobsmacked if it meets the claims.
Am I qualified to comment? No, I'm only an engineer and Car nut- I know Nuff'n.
PhillipM said:
I do love how on PH all the posters complaining about the engineering pedigree of the commenters who are critisising/finding flaws with a subject, are always the ones with even less pedigree....
I don't think that's the point Phil... Enough details of these two (track and road) cars have not been made available for anyone to make a judgement about the cars.No one has driven them, no one has seen the final car, no lap times, power, performance, track times have been released from the final cars.
I don't think it matters what your engineering/ pedigree is - how can anyone comment on the engineering of something for which the engineering has not been finalised?
They could be amazing to drive. No one knows. Cooling could be provided by jet engines sucking through the radiators, giving a little thrust as well. No one knows.
If you don't want Aston wasting their money on this, fair enough. But I don't think anyone is in a position to say X, Y, Z has been designed wrong or can't work when we haven't seen the final product.
Dom9 (Post-grad dissertation in ground effect)
Ready in 18 months is the bit thats is key. Anything is possible with enough money and time. I hope it meets their design targets as it`ll be amazing, some people on the know have already commented it should be great but to develop the "bespoke" engine and chassis in 18 months, even if its already underway, and make it reliable and usable is going to be one hell of a challenge.
LB14 said:
Max_Torque said:
Basically, what they have designed is an illegal LMP1 car...
Have you caught Adrian Newey fiddling your Mrs or something??? World's best race car designer designs what could be the most ground-breaking car since the McLaren F1 .......so why so much hate?
thecremeegg said:
Thought this was pistonheads? The thing looks insane, how can you not be excited by it?!
It is but I don't find hypercars that interesting to be honest. I'd prefer a car to be more engaging than flat out bonkers fast. It's the same reason that F1 bores me to tears.Plus, where is this going to be enjoyed to the maximum of it's potential? Probably on a race track or a closed road in Wales once a decade for Evo magazine.
scubadude said:
Powertrain. Can you build a 1000hp NA V12 hybrid? Yes.
However, it states non-hybrid. So that's a 1000bhp NA V12 that has to fit in that packaging and be road legal with cats.....No, we haven't seen the final car. But that's rather the point, the final car isn't going to look like that. It can't.
Edited by PhillipM on Wednesday 6th July 11:46
PhillipM said:
However, it states non-hybrid. So that's a 1000bhp NA V12 that has to fit in that packaging and be road legal with cats.....
Where does it say that? It says 'Power will come from a naturally-aspirated, mid-mounted V12 engine which will drive the rear wheels only, and will possibly work in conjunction with a KERS-style hybrid assistance system.'
Max_Torque said:
Sorry, but my BULLSH*T radar is bonging off the scale!
"fits 2 adults, a V12, some hybrid stuff" and yet it looks to have a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller package envelope than a 918/P1/LaLa, due to the underfloor channels required and low roof line. Where exactly are you going to put all those oily bits to actually make it work?
"Quicker than an F1 car" er, seriously unlikely, even given free rein without regs, and as anyone who has driven a very quick single seater with massive aero will testify, they make TERRIBLE road cars. P1/918/LaLa all took significant performance compromises on-board in order to make the decent to drive on the road
Tyres - this is the big one, it won't be quicker than an F1 car on ROAD LEGAL tyres
Secret "Adrian Newey" sauce - yes he's a pretty dam good race car designer, but even he can't brake the laws of physics. A "practical" road car can never be F1 car low, which is what is required to make underfloor ground effect aero work. Low drag isn't enough, you need the massive ratio of downforce to mass that an F1 car has to pull high G.
Road Car Homologation - er, just looking at that styling buck (which is what it is) i can already see probably 20 issues that won't pass series homologation.
Finally, why are AML messing around with stuff like this? Spend the money on what you really need for a long term future, namely the DB11 and new Vantage. Hows about making THOSE cars class leading instead of settling for the usual "that'll do" standard??
Max. Am I not correct in remembering that you worked on the P1? Whilst I appreciate your perspective is informed, is it not also perhaps slightly tainted by your own interests? Many poo-poo'd the idea of the P1 commenting that there wasn't a chance it would do the lap time's it was claimed it would do. 5 years ago, the idea of a supercar that had a claimed 600kg of downforce, a special lowered track mode and over 900bhp combined IC and KERS was preposterous. Not exactly that different to Aston's claims are they?"fits 2 adults, a V12, some hybrid stuff" and yet it looks to have a SIGNIFICANTLY smaller package envelope than a 918/P1/LaLa, due to the underfloor channels required and low roof line. Where exactly are you going to put all those oily bits to actually make it work?
"Quicker than an F1 car" er, seriously unlikely, even given free rein without regs, and as anyone who has driven a very quick single seater with massive aero will testify, they make TERRIBLE road cars. P1/918/LaLa all took significant performance compromises on-board in order to make the decent to drive on the road
Tyres - this is the big one, it won't be quicker than an F1 car on ROAD LEGAL tyres
Secret "Adrian Newey" sauce - yes he's a pretty dam good race car designer, but even he can't brake the laws of physics. A "practical" road car can never be F1 car low, which is what is required to make underfloor ground effect aero work. Low drag isn't enough, you need the massive ratio of downforce to mass that an F1 car has to pull high G.
Road Car Homologation - er, just looking at that styling buck (which is what it is) i can already see probably 20 issues that won't pass series homologation.
Finally, why are AML messing around with stuff like this? Spend the money on what you really need for a long term future, namely the DB11 and new Vantage. Hows about making THOSE cars class leading instead of settling for the usual "that'll do" standard??
I have no affiliation with Aston at all, but I don't really see why they can't potentially make it work. OK, it may not be that refined, and may well be pretty pointless as a road car, but it's probably only about as far away in those attributes as a P1 is from a 911 Turbo. I think even you would admit that a P1 is hardly an every day car. It's fairly unrefined from an NVH persepctive, isn't especially practical and from what I've heard, isn't especially reliable. But then it's a hypercar. It doesn't really need to be does it?
And as for your last point. Would the same have not been said about McLaren at the time? The 12C at the time the P1 was announced didn't exactly have the best feedback. There were issues with the noise being boring, customers had run away in disgust as McLaren discounted the retail price of new cars, bringing the second hand values crashing and many had major reliability issues. Perhaps many would have suggested they spend their money on fixing their core product rather than developing a pie in the sky million pound hypercar that had as much relevance to the road as a GT3 car did to shopping at Waitrose...
Edited by RacerMike on Wednesday 6th July 12:22
andyps said:
I found it very disappointing that Christian Horner managed to slag off two people in his part of the reveal (Lewis Hamilton and Ron Dennis) rather than just concentrating on the positives of what he was presenting .
I missed this but it sounds typical of Horner. Does anyone know if the reveal is available on YouTube anywhere? Cacatous said:
It is but I don't find hypercars that interesting to be honest. I'd prefer a car to be more engaging than flat out bonkers fast. It's the same reason that F1 bores me to tears.
Plus, where is this going to be enjoyed to the maximum of it's potential? Probably on a race track or a closed road in Wales once a decade for Evo magazine.
You could argue that for any car with 250bhp plus though?Plus, where is this going to be enjoyed to the maximum of it's potential? Probably on a race track or a closed road in Wales once a decade for Evo magazine.
Fair enough if you don't like hypercars, a lot of people don't find them interesting, however they push the boundaries and produce stuff that people didn't think possible 10 years previously.
All the people moaning that it will never happen/not possible, people said the same about the Veyron and look how "outdated" that is now.
We all know that F1 cars are limited by the regulations and not necessarily the laws of physics so why is it so hard to believe that a car with more power, could be only a little bit heavier and with no limit to where parts can and can't go and the aero effectiveness would be as fast if not faster? Modern F1 cars are slower round a track than those from 12 years ago so I have every faith this thing will be fantastic.
Now on the other hand, the people saying that Aston can't afford it etc may well be correct, I can't dispute that, but who cares about that if this thing makes it to market - it'll be epic!
RacerMike said:
Max. Am I not correct in remembering that you worked on the P1? Whilst I appreciate your perspective is informed, is it not also perhaps slightly tainted by your own interests? Many poo-poo'd the idea of the P1 commenting that there wasn't a chance it would do the lap time's it was claimed it would do. 5 years ago, the idea of a supercar that had a claimed 600kg of downforce, a special lowered track mode and over 900bhp combined IC and KERS was preposterous. Not exactly that different to Aston's claims are they?
I have no affiliation with Aston at all, but I don't really see why they can't potentially make it work. OK, it may not be that refined, and may well be pretty pointless as a road car, but it's probably only about as far away in those attributes as a P1 is from a 911 Turbo. I think even you would admit that a P1 is hardly an every day car. It's fairly unrefined from an NVH persepctive, isn't especially practical and from what I've heard, isn't especially reliable. But then it's a hypercar. It doesn't really need to be does it?
And as for your last point. Would the same have not been said about McLaren at the time? The 12C at the time the P1 was announced didn't exactly have the best feedback. There were issues with the noise being boring, customers had run away in disgust as McLaren discounted the retail price of new cars, bringing the second hand values crashing and many had major reliability issues. Perhaps many would have suggested they spend their money on fixing their core product rather than developing a pie in the sky million pound hypercar that had as much relevance to the road as a GT3 car did to shopping at Waitrose...
it's precisely my involvement with the P1 that makes me suspect of the claims for this new car.I have no affiliation with Aston at all, but I don't really see why they can't potentially make it work. OK, it may not be that refined, and may well be pretty pointless as a road car, but it's probably only about as far away in those attributes as a P1 is from a 911 Turbo. I think even you would admit that a P1 is hardly an every day car. It's fairly unrefined from an NVH persepctive, isn't especially practical and from what I've heard, isn't especially reliable. But then it's a hypercar. It doesn't really need to be does it?
And as for your last point. Would the same have not been said about McLaren at the time? The 12C at the time the P1 was announced didn't exactly have the best feedback. There were issues with the noise being boring, customers had run away in disgust as McLaren discounted the retail price of new cars, bringing the second hand values crashing and many had major reliability issues. Perhaps many would have suggested they spend their money on fixing their core product rather than developing a pie in the sky million pound hypercar that had as much relevance to the road as a GT3 car did to shopping at Waitrose...
Edited by RacerMike on Wednesday 6th July 12:22
Look at a P1, although pretty extreme, it looks like a road car. ie it has space for lights and number plates, room for the wheels to go up and down and turn, has a seating position and sight lines that conform to road regs and general useability. No it ain't a Ford Fiesta, but you can drive one everyday with just a few compromises.
This new Aston though is a race car. So yes, you can put number plates on a race car (assuming you can find somewhere to put them without messing up the aero.....) but it's still a race car and not a road car.
I understand implicitly the amount of time, effort and money it took MAL to bring the P1 to fruition, and remember it's heavily based on the 12c, so they were starting with a lot of knowledge as a base. AML don't have that experience and AN/RB simply don;t have the road car experience either (have a look at the buck, and tell me where the headlights fit for example.....)
So AML have a completely unproven, and very extreme race car on which to work. The package envelop at first glance looks extremely tight, and there are a lot of things that are going to have to be seriously modified to meet type approval. And even then, it'll be such a compromised road car it'll be pretty awful to drive. (go try a 3point turn in a LMP1 car and report back!)
It also, imo, doesn't really bring anything particularly new to the table. I can't see there is the money or time to develop and trick hybrid stuff, although i guess you could nick some of the stuff from F1, but that seems unlikely, given the cost/secrecy and lack of durability of those systems). It does have trick "passive" aero, but so do the current LMP1 cars, racing (and winning) in those series already.
What would, imo, be better is for AML to knuckle down, and make sure the next Vantage is a world beating sports car, rather than chase pointless pipe dreams............
a T1 is actually pretty good value second hand:
http://www.classicandsportscar.com/classifieds/cla...
though a Radical SR8LM is actually even better value in terms of lap times per £
http://www.classicandsportscar.com/classifieds/cla...
though a Radical SR8LM is actually even better value in terms of lap times per £
Max_Torque said:
it's precisely my involvement with the P1 that makes me suspect of the claims for this new car.
Look at a P1, although pretty extreme, it looks like a road car. ie it has space for lights and number plates, room for the wheels to go up and down and turn, has a seating position and sight lines that conform to road regs and general useability. No it ain't a Ford Fiesta, but you can drive one everyday with just a few compromises.
This new Aston though is a race car. So yes, you can put number plates on a race car (assuming you can find somewhere to put them without messing up the aero.....) but it's still a race car and not a road car.
I understand implicitly the amount of time, effort and money it took MAL to bring the P1 to fruition, and remember it's heavily based on the 12c, so they were starting with a lot of knowledge as a base. AML don't have that experience and AN/RB simply don;t have the road car experience either (have a look at the buck, and tell me where the headlights fit for example.....)
So AML have a completely unproven, and very extreme race car on which to work. The package envelop at first glance looks extremely tight, and there are a lot of things that are going to have to be seriously modified to meet type approval. And even then, it'll be such a compromised road car it'll be pretty awful to drive. (go try a 3point turn in a LMP1 car and report back!)
It also, imo, doesn't really bring anything particularly new to the table. I can't see there is the money or time to develop and trick hybrid stuff, although i guess you could nick some of the stuff from F1, but that seems unlikely, given the cost/secrecy and lack of durability of those systems). It does have trick "passive" aero, but so do the current LMP1 cars, racing (and winning) in those series already.
What would, imo, be better is for AML to knuckle down, and make sure the next Vantage is a world beating sports car, rather than chase pointless pipe dreams............
depressing mindframe imoLook at a P1, although pretty extreme, it looks like a road car. ie it has space for lights and number plates, room for the wheels to go up and down and turn, has a seating position and sight lines that conform to road regs and general useability. No it ain't a Ford Fiesta, but you can drive one everyday with just a few compromises.
This new Aston though is a race car. So yes, you can put number plates on a race car (assuming you can find somewhere to put them without messing up the aero.....) but it's still a race car and not a road car.
I understand implicitly the amount of time, effort and money it took MAL to bring the P1 to fruition, and remember it's heavily based on the 12c, so they were starting with a lot of knowledge as a base. AML don't have that experience and AN/RB simply don;t have the road car experience either (have a look at the buck, and tell me where the headlights fit for example.....)
So AML have a completely unproven, and very extreme race car on which to work. The package envelop at first glance looks extremely tight, and there are a lot of things that are going to have to be seriously modified to meet type approval. And even then, it'll be such a compromised road car it'll be pretty awful to drive. (go try a 3point turn in a LMP1 car and report back!)
It also, imo, doesn't really bring anything particularly new to the table. I can't see there is the money or time to develop and trick hybrid stuff, although i guess you could nick some of the stuff from F1, but that seems unlikely, given the cost/secrecy and lack of durability of those systems). It does have trick "passive" aero, but so do the current LMP1 cars, racing (and winning) in those series already.
What would, imo, be better is for AML to knuckle down, and make sure the next Vantage is a world beating sports car, rather than chase pointless pipe dreams............
faster faster faster is better!
why stop now?
Pretty sad reflection on peeps appreciation of design that they immediatley think it looks like a Pagani. If looked at closely it looks nothing like a Pagani or a 458 or anything else. Simply lazy thinking and push button commenting.
Even if this is a cling film covered clay model, it seems Newey and Co have been very busy. The fact that the front of the car is isolated from the cabin and the control arms for the suspension are visible is a really interesting innovation.
A new normally aspirated V12 and BHP/Ton of 1:1 should be music to most people's ears. Though they have said it will be a hybrid but to be provided by Williams or Renault?
Clever not to have a reverse gear but use the Hybrid for this task, shows they have had their thinking hats on.
Well done Aston, it looks great and will no doubt be the besting of the current crop of Hypercars by a substantial margin.
Even if this is a cling film covered clay model, it seems Newey and Co have been very busy. The fact that the front of the car is isolated from the cabin and the control arms for the suspension are visible is a really interesting innovation.
A new normally aspirated V12 and BHP/Ton of 1:1 should be music to most people's ears. Though they have said it will be a hybrid but to be provided by Williams or Renault?
Clever not to have a reverse gear but use the Hybrid for this task, shows they have had their thinking hats on.
Well done Aston, it looks great and will no doubt be the besting of the current crop of Hypercars by a substantial margin.
I must be getting old and boring as investment potential aside I wouldn't want one.
It's too fast and impractical for the road and unlike most people on PH these days I'm not a world class driver capable of extracting anywhere near it's full potential on track.
I'll take a Singer 911 for the road and a Radical, BAC Mono etc for track days and spend the rest on a yacht.
It's too fast and impractical for the road and unlike most people on PH these days I'm not a world class driver capable of extracting anywhere near it's full potential on track.
I'll take a Singer 911 for the road and a Radical, BAC Mono etc for track days and spend the rest on a yacht.
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