Diesel scrappage scheme
Discussion
culpz said:
Devil2575 said:
I wasn't agreeing with you. Neiher do some big European car manufacturers. But then what do they know, it's only their business...
It was sarcasm on sarcasm. I presumed that was implied but clearly not.To clear this up, the current state of EV's really isn't at such technological advancement and efficiency to be rolled out to the general public right now and/or be a direct replacement for internal combustion engines.
I honestly can't see that being far from the truth.
Edited by culpz on Friday 2nd December 11:28
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-381707...
HoHoHo said:
funkyrobot said:
HoHoHo said:
Coming from a V8 TT F10 M5 I really like my new car........
A 3.0L Tri-turbo 390hp, 740nm Torque diesel with loads of room for the children and dog.
Never going to be as much fun as my old M5 but it's not a bad car at all and no one will convince me otherwise.
What car is that?A 3.0L Tri-turbo 390hp, 740nm Torque diesel with loads of room for the children and dog.
Never going to be as much fun as my old M5 but it's not a bad car at all and no one will convince me otherwise.
My dad has the X5 M50D. It's quite a monster, even though he drives it very steadily.
Believe me, after an M5 the 50D is no monster but it's a great all round utility vehicle
Thing is, the M50D is so effortless. Makes you appreciate the engineering at the car is a big old heavy lump.
funkyrobot said:
Never been in the M5, so it's enough of a monster for me.
Thing is, the M50D is so effortless. Makes you appreciate the engineering at the car is a big old heavy lump.
You used one word there that sums up the 50DThing is, the M50D is so effortless. Makes you appreciate the engineering at the car is a big old heavy lump.
'Effortless'
And it is
Turn sport on and it is a pretty quick and well handling barge weighing over 2T
heebeegeetee said:
Sheepshanks said:
I've always felt turbo-diesels work best in autos, and I believe the Nissan X-Trail, to which you're referring, has a CVT auto - so the issue of being in the right rev band goes away completely.
I agree, I think generally dervs and manual gearboxes are horrid. Don't know about the current ones but the previous gen of Xtrail could be specified with manual, cvt or 6 speed autos which is what mine has.Devil2575 said:
And exactly where abouts in that report does it advise that manufacturers are now able to confidently put out EV's out on the road to replace diesel engines right away? It doesn't does it? Do you know why it's not been said? That's right, because it's not true.I'm sorry to say this but you're really quite deluded in respect to this discussion and i'd advise to take any news report like this one with a pinch of salt. Either that or actually read and understand what they're saying first before making any assumptions.
Edited by culpz on Friday 2nd December 13:40
Edited by culpz on Friday 2nd December 13:55
twoblacklines said:
caelite said:
Higher displacement 4s can have a nice raspy noise. https://youtu.be/NbkP_jvkzn8
With diesels though the more refined they get the crapper the noise is. Manufacturers seem to be obsessed with removing every ounce of growl from them until all thats left is idle rattle.
And you link me to a pick up with a custom exhaust? Hardly a good example is it? The average 2.0 tdi out there sounds terrible.With diesels though the more refined they get the crapper the noise is. Manufacturers seem to be obsessed with removing every ounce of growl from them until all thats left is idle rattle.
You can tell it is all about tax revenue when the electric cars came out with 0% emissions, and then they started taxing them too, even though they don't pollute.
t.But yes I agree with your latter point. Having flavours of the month is by far the best way to extract tax revenue from the motorist.
Private diesel cars by the official statistics contribute about 11% of the supposedly nasty pollutants in London.
They pull the usual trick of political/enviro-nutters by grouping ALL diesel pollution together and claiming 40% - which is obviously the figure they always quote.
The official statistics also show that these 'nasty' pollutants have fallen dramatically in the last few decades and have stabilized at these low levels in recent years, with a marginal sporadic decline if anything.
Removing 11% of that remaining low level of pollution (that 'fails' politically set limits) will make no perceptible difference/have no benefit whatsoever.
BMJ published research also shows that Asthma/Respiratory disease has increased at the times of the greatest reductions in the 'nasty' pollutants, although deaths have declined at a more or less steady continuous rate (with most other causes of death) obviously as a result of improved health care.
Some global cities have really nasty diesel/smoke/industry pollution, but the UK doesn't 99% of the time and banning private diesel cars will make no difference.
In London, by their own figures, Gas central heating boilers and industrial gas use (grouping them together, clever eh!) causes 150% of the pollutants of private diesel cars, why no call to ban Gas central heating (although scarily, that is actually part of the SAME plan for the UK, forcing everyone to use expensive renewable electricity to heat their home and drive).
Don't fall for the diesel blame propaganda and the knee-jerk bigots on here, do the research, look at the facts, use your brain.
They pull the usual trick of political/enviro-nutters by grouping ALL diesel pollution together and claiming 40% - which is obviously the figure they always quote.
The official statistics also show that these 'nasty' pollutants have fallen dramatically in the last few decades and have stabilized at these low levels in recent years, with a marginal sporadic decline if anything.
Removing 11% of that remaining low level of pollution (that 'fails' politically set limits) will make no perceptible difference/have no benefit whatsoever.
BMJ published research also shows that Asthma/Respiratory disease has increased at the times of the greatest reductions in the 'nasty' pollutants, although deaths have declined at a more or less steady continuous rate (with most other causes of death) obviously as a result of improved health care.
Some global cities have really nasty diesel/smoke/industry pollution, but the UK doesn't 99% of the time and banning private diesel cars will make no difference.
In London, by their own figures, Gas central heating boilers and industrial gas use (grouping them together, clever eh!) causes 150% of the pollutants of private diesel cars, why no call to ban Gas central heating (although scarily, that is actually part of the SAME plan for the UK, forcing everyone to use expensive renewable electricity to heat their home and drive).
Don't fall for the diesel blame propaganda and the knee-jerk bigots on here, do the research, look at the facts, use your brain.
Sheepshanks said:
I've always felt turbo-diesels work best in autos, and I believe the Nissan X-Trail, to which you're referring, has a CVT auto - so the issue of being in the right rev band goes away completely.
It gets rid of one issue, but the engine really is a bit of a duffer. Decent on diesel though, which is all that is going to matter to most? By all means anyone looking at one have a test drive and see what you think, perhaps I am expecting too much. The VAG 2.0 is a much better powerplant IME. We have a Juke which has the same issue as the XTrail, I was just a bit surprised that the bigger and supposedly better car had the same weird engine characteristics. culpz said:
Devil2575 said:
And exactly where abouts in that report does it advise that manufacturers are now able to confidently put out EV's out on the road to replace diesel engines right away? It doesn't does it? Do you know why it's not been said? That's right, because it's not true.I'm sorry to say this but you're really quite deluded in respect to this discussion and i'd advise to take any news report like this one with a pinch of salt. Either that or actually read and understand what they're saying first before making any assumptions.
culpz said:
A sudden breakthrough in alternate/electric cars isn't happening anytime soon in my eyes either.
So I wasn't ever talking about right away, but I was challenging the notion that it won't happen anytime soon.So perhaps you need to not change your position between posts before you accuse others of being deluded.
You have no idea how quickly things will develop, especially if major cities move to ban diesel cars in the next 10 years. Manufacturers aren't going to wait for the ban before they act and according to the FT major European manufactueres are already looking to work together to set up a network of fast charging points.
Devil2575 said:
culpz said:
Devil2575 said:
And exactly where abouts in that report does it advise that manufacturers are now able to confidently put out EV's out on the road to replace diesel engines right away? It doesn't does it? Do you know why it's not been said? That's right, because it's not true.I'm sorry to say this but you're really quite deluded in respect to this discussion and i'd advise to take any news report like this one with a pinch of salt. Either that or actually read and understand what they're saying first before making any assumptions.
culpz said:
A sudden breakthrough in alternate/electric cars isn't happening anytime soon in my eyes either.
So I wasn't ever talking about right away, but I was challenging the notion that it won't happen anytime soon.So perhaps you need to not change your position between posts before you accuse others of being deluded.
You have no idea how quickly things will develop, especially if major cities move to ban diesel cars in the next 10 years. Manufacturers aren't going to wait for the ban before they act and according to the FT major European manufactueres are already looking to work together to set up a network of fast charging points.
All that article states about EV's is that there is a rush to get them out there. That's a sweeping statement as the technology is has already been there for some time, but it's not up to scratch. Otherwise, there would be a fair few on the roads. I'm not sure if you've noticed but, right now, there aren't many out there as they are ultimately flawed.
It will happen eventually, i agree with that. I advised it won't be anytime soon. Maybe mine and your perception of "soon" is completely different but electric cars have had time to evolve and become better for transportation purposes for years now and it hasn't been dramatically improved.
culpz said:
All that article states about EV's is that there is a rush to get them out there. That's a sweeping statement as the technology is has already been there for some time, but it's not up to scratch. Otherwise, there would be a fair few on the roads. I'm not sure if you've noticed but, right now, there aren't many out there as they are ultimately flawed.
It will happen eventually, i agree with that. I advised it won't be anytime soon. Maybe mine and your perception of "soon" is completely different but electric cars have had time to evolve and become better for transportation purposes for years now and it hasn't been dramatically improved.
The reason they haven't is because there has not been the driver to do so, after all petrol and diesel are relatively cheap so why would a manufacturer go to the expensense of developing electric cars when they don't need to. What banning diesels from major cities and CO2 targets is doing/will do is create a business justification to invest heavily in electric. Just look at how much the technoloy has come on in the last 10 years. Diesel was what car makers were banking on to enable them to hit emmissions targets, now that is under threat they are going to be even more motivated to invest in electric technology. It will happen eventually, i agree with that. I advised it won't be anytime soon. Maybe mine and your perception of "soon" is completely different but electric cars have had time to evolve and become better for transportation purposes for years now and it hasn't been dramatically improved.
yonex said:
It gets rid of one issue, but the engine really is a bit of a duffer. Decent on diesel though, which is all that is going to matter to most? By all means anyone looking at one have a test drive and see what you think, perhaps I am expecting too much. The VAG 2.0 is a much better powerplant IME. We have a Juke which has the same issue as the XTrail, I was just a bit surprised that the bigger and supposedly better car had the same weird engine characteristics.
Someone on here, who usually drives fairly upscale vehicles, was lent an X-Trail diesel auto and he said he was amazed to find it was only a 1.6 - he assumed it was a 2 litre. He said it drove very well on a long trip around Wales, although the MPG wasn't great.Sheepshanks said:
Someone on here, who usually drives fairly upscale vehicles, was lent an X-Trail diesel auto and he said he was amazed to find it was only a 1.6 - he assumed it was a 2 litre. He said it drove very well on a long trip around Wales, although the MPG wasn't great.
To be honest, it's obvious as soon as you get going it's a small engine. Each to their own but it's not for me.Devil2575 said:
The reason they haven't is because there has not been the driver to do so, after all petrol and diesel are relatively cheap so why would a manufacturer go to the expensense of developing electric cars when they don't need to. What banning diesels from major cities and CO2 targets is doing/will do is create a business justification to invest heavily in electric. Just look at how much the technoloy has come on in the last 10 years. Diesel was what car makers were banking on to enable them to hit emmissions targets, now that is under threat they are going to be even more motivated to invest in electric technology.
EVs continue to only make sense whilst they are being subsidised through rebates / grants on purchases and lower duty rates on their fuel.If diesels were banned and every diesel owner switched to an EV... the government would have a huge black hole to fill, taxing the electric used to charge an EV would be a nice target for them. At this point an EV looks significantly less attractive.
Nigel Worc's said:
This euro grading stuff isn't quite as it seems.
I have an early Euro 4 diesel, no dpf etc, my mate has a late Euro 4 diesel with DPF, mine is a 2006, his is a 2010 vehicle.
I think you get things like Euro IV Interim and Euro IV Final where, I think the regulations have in implemented incrementally. Also different engine manufacturers use different methods to meet the same ends. I have an early Euro 4 diesel, no dpf etc, my mate has a late Euro 4 diesel with DPF, mine is a 2006, his is a 2010 vehicle.
I will of course stand corrected.
Trabi601 said:
EVs continue to only make sense whilst they are being subsidised through rebates / grants on purchases and lower duty rates on their fuel.
If diesels were banned and every diesel owner switched to an EV... the government would have a huge black hole to fill, taxing the electric used to charge an EV would be a nice target for them. At this point an EV looks significantly less attractive.
Once EV becomes mainstream it won't need subsidies. As technology matures it becomes cheaper.If diesels were banned and every diesel owner switched to an EV... the government would have a huge black hole to fill, taxing the electric used to charge an EV would be a nice target for them. At this point an EV looks significantly less attractive.
Tax wouldn't be increased if it pushed everyone back into petrol cars.
EVs will not be significantly cheaper to own and run than their fossil-fuelled equivalents. There will almost certainly be more short-term penalties introduced to increase the cost of fossil-fuelled driving in order to push people into switching, but no long-term cost benefit to the end user. Probably the reverse, in fact.
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