RE: Huracan Performante clocks 6min 52sec 'ring lap

RE: Huracan Performante clocks 6min 52sec 'ring lap

Author
Discussion

lee_fr200

5,493 posts

192 months

Friday 3rd March 2017
quotequote all
Don't know why everyone gets their knickers in a twist!

It's a blistering lap time sounds well and yeah well done lambo

I do like how ppl say it's a track optimised car oh this has been done and that's been done

Who cares rly it's produced the time it has and it's quicker than all its rivals and rivals from the hypercar class too

Lambo give yourselves a pat on the back

thegreenhell

15,730 posts

221 months

Friday 3rd March 2017
quotequote all
MCBrowncoat said:
isaldiri said:
MCBrowncoat said:
I suppose it is a massive chunk of time. But then it's also weird that someone would base his whole theory on speedo numbers that even he shows are balls given that at one point they randomly jump up 40kph...doesn't that render his whole argument complete twaddle? As an analyst, and I am, that would would at once make me question the data I was analysing in the first bloomin' place....no?!
you've never ran GPS vbox type data on a car around the 'ring have you....?
No, expand?
The steep, woody terrain makes it hard for GPS to keep a signal lock on the requisite satellites at all times. Foxhole and Bergwerk are two common GPS black spots, but you can lose the signal at other spots too, and when that happens your GPS logger doesn't see that you've moved from your previous known location so the speed calculation shows a downwards spike, until it regains the signal and spikes upwards again.

MCBrowncoat

911 posts

148 months

Friday 3rd March 2017
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
MCBrowncoat said:
isaldiri said:
MCBrowncoat said:
I suppose it is a massive chunk of time. But then it's also weird that someone would base his whole theory on speedo numbers that even he shows are balls given that at one point they randomly jump up 40kph...doesn't that render his whole argument complete twaddle? As an analyst, and I am, that would would at once make me question the data I was analysing in the first bloomin' place....no?!
you've never ran GPS vbox type data on a car around the 'ring have you....?
No, expand?
The steep, woody terrain makes it hard for GPS to keep a signal lock on the requisite satellites at all times. Foxhole and Bergwerk are two common GPS black spots, but you can lose the signal at other spots too, and when that happens your GPS logger doesn't see that you've moved from your previous known location so the speed calculation shows a downwards spike, until it regains the signal and spikes upwards again.
Okay, well that's interesting. But I think then we might be making the same point? Believe me I'm not trying to start an argument! It seems like the speedo thing isn't conclusive to build an analysis from? Going back to my original post it felt like the Huracan was accelerating out of the corners quicker/sooner, and maybe there's potential to be braking deeper? Given the sheer number of corners couldn't that possibly give it that edge? Like I said earlier, I'd be genuinely interested to hear an expert/aerodynamicists/engineers view on it!

isaldiri

18,808 posts

170 months

Friday 3rd March 2017
quotequote all
MCBrowncoat said:
Okay, well that's interesting. But I think then we might be making the same point? Believe me I'm not trying to start an argument! It seems like the speedo thing isn't conclusive to build an analysis from? Going back to my original post it felt like the Huracan was accelerating out of the corners quicker/sooner, and maybe there's potential to be braking deeper? Given the sheer number of corners couldn't that possibly give it that edge? Like I said earlier, I'd be genuinely interested to hear an expert/aerodynamicists/engineers view on it!
Over a long distance where the gps signal is steady (or steady-ish), the gps speeds should be very accurate. more so than speedometer readings.

As Max_torque said earlier, plus given the camera placement difference, if your eye can judge a ~1% speed differential for the car accelerating quicker then you have remarkable eyesight.

As I also said earlier, given the 'aero' has been massively hyped about for the huracan, it's minimum cornering speeds should be much higher than the 918 as it's relying on aero grip to make up a huge power differential to the 918.

Yipper

5,964 posts

92 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
gigglebug said:
Yipper said:
Just looked at the part-time amateur blog of that well-known forensic detective, Misha.

There is definitely a man on the grassy knoll.
So instead of producing a relevant counter argument with any sort of evidence to back it up you've merely made a below average attempt to belittle the person who has at least gone to the effort to do so.

Your not a politician by any chance are you Yipper? Your about as useful as one!
Amazed anyone takes seriously the amateur YouTubers and bloggers desperate for subscribers and attention. The conspiracy videos for this are little different to the freaks who think there was a man on a grassy knoll, a Moon landing near Las Vegas, and every floor of the World Trade Center was packed with explosives implanted by Israelis disguised as construction workers.

Lambo had one 15min window and one shot at the hot lap. It was done on road Pirellis with its new active-aero pinning the car to the corners in coolish, dry, sunny weather. Track conditions were near-perfect. It was an epic lap.

The conspiracy video takes selective one-off snapshots of the car's speed and concludes the laptime is not possible... Anyone who follows Formula 1 will know this is a highly unscientific method to use and it is simply not a credible analysis.

For example, at the 2011 Italian Grand Prix, in the second session, Vettel on the main straight was famously much, much slower than his rivals -- but still logged the fastest lap overall. Petrov had top speed in the session and hit 347kmh on the main straight, while Vettel was the slowest trapper in the entire field at 328kmh... but Vettel still delivered the fastest lap of all competitors and was several tenths quicker on the whole lap than Petrov. In other words, just analysing selective speeds at selective parts of a lap is not reliable.

gigglebug

2,611 posts

124 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There is a common misconception that speed measured via GPS is done so as a function of position against time. If this were the case, GPS velocity would be just about unusable, because GPS position relies on precise measurements of the distance from the receiver to the satellite, and therefore suffers from numerous effects - such as atmospheric interference - which delays the signal.

Fortunately, velocity isn't measured like this: instead, the Doppler shift in the signals coming from the satellites is captured and this leads to an incredibly accurate measurement of speed.
I'm sure I've read, it might even be a post in this thread, that the 918 was using a Vbox but the Lambo's were using GPS data.

foxsasha

1,417 posts

137 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
Yipper said:
Amazed anyone takes seriously the amateur YouTubers and bloggers desperate for subscribers and attention. The conspiracy videos for this are little different to the freaks who think there was a man on a grassy knoll, a Moon landing near Las Vegas, and every floor of the World Trade Center was packed with explosives implanted by Israelis disguised as construction workers.

Lambo had one 15min window and one shot at the hot lap. It was done on road Pirellis with its new active-aero pinning the car to the corners in coolish, dry, sunny weather. Track conditions were near-perfect. It was an epic lap.

The conspiracy video takes selective one-off snapshots of the car's speed and concludes the laptime is not possible... Anyone who follows Formula 1 will know this is a highly unscientific method to use and it is simply not a credible analysis.

For example, at the 2011 Italian Grand Prix, in the second session, Vettel on the main straight was famously much, much slower than his rivals -- but still logged the fastest lap overall. Petrov had top speed in the session and hit 347kmh on the main straight, while Vettel was the slowest trapper in the entire field at 328kmh... but Vettel still delivered the fastest lap of all competitors and was several tenths quicker on the whole lap than Petrov. In other words, just analysing selective speeds at selective parts of a lap is not reliable.
Was Vettel also slower through the corners?

foxsasha

1,417 posts

137 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
Note the carefully worded text. The article reads, at first scan, like all the Performantes will run the tyre used in the record attempt. Thats not what it actually says. What it says is that Pirelli developed tyres specifically for the record attempt but the customer cars will run their own version of the Trofeo.

What I take from that is that theyve covered themselves with that release for the Ring car to run custom one lap wonder slicks, or as close to as makes no difference, and that the road car will run a more normal variant of the usual Trofeo.

"Press release from Pirelli...

Milan, March 3, 2017 - Using specially-developed Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R tyres, Lamborghini has beaten the lap record at the Nurburgring in Germany.

Pirelli equipped the new Lamborghini Huracan Performante that set a lap time of 6m52.1s around the legendary Nordschleife on October 5 last year, breaking the existing production car record.

The Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R tyres, in 245/30ZR20 at the front and 305/30ZR20 at the back were designed specifically by Pirelli's engineers for the record attempt. The team was able to develop these tyres in just three months, thanks to advanced modelling techniques and correlation of on-track data with telemetry.

As a result, the combined work of Pirelli and Lamborghini's engineers meant that a base set-up was established with just one development session.

Together with Lamborghini's research and development team, the Pirelli engineers responsible for developing specific tyres for the Huracan Performante were also present at the Nurburgring when the record was broken.

The P Zero Trofeo R has been specifically designed to complement the performance of extreme cars – especially on a racing circuit – in complete safety. The tyres react precisely to the driver's inputs while on the limit, typical of circuit driving. On dry asphalt, P Zero Trofeo R ensures high levels of grip and consist handling even under the most extreme conditions.

P Zero Trofeo R uses motorsport-derived compounds made from innovative materials as well as a redesigned tread pattern. These have led to extraordinary results, both in terms of increased stability and improved lateral roadholding in the dry, while at the same time reducing wear.

From the track, the new Huracan Performante now goes on show: the car will be previewed globally at the Geneva Motor Show, wearing made to measure P Zero Corsa road tyres."

Edited by foxsasha on Saturday 4th March 09:44

gigglebug

2,611 posts

124 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
Yipper said:
Amazed anyone takes seriously the amateur YouTubers and bloggers desperate for subscribers and attention. The conspiracy videos for this are little different to the freaks who think there was a man on a grassy knoll, a Moon landing near Las Vegas, and every floor of the World Trade Center was packed with explosives implanted by Israelis disguised as construction workers.

Lambo had one 15min window and one shot at the hot lap. It was done on road Pirellis with its new active-aero pinning the car to the corners in coolish, dry, sunny weather. Track conditions were near-perfect. It was an epic lap.

The conspiracy video takes selective one-off snapshots of the car's speed and concludes the laptime is not possible... Anyone who follows Formula 1 will know this is a highly unscientific method to use and it is simply not a credible analysis.

For example, at the 2011 Italian Grand Prix, in the second session, Vettel on the main straight was famously much, much slower than his rivals -- but still logged the fastest lap overall. Petrov had top speed in the session and hit 347kmh on the main straight, while Vettel was the slowest trapper in the entire field at 328kmh... but Vettel still delivered the fastest lap of all competitors and was several tenths quicker on the whole lap than Petrov. In other words, just analysing selective speeds at selective parts of a lap is not reliable.
Where as someone who takes an unverified lap time as gospal when it's well know that the chances of the cars being run are genuine customer spec are minimal to non existent and with which there are many reasonable questions being asked about it are obviously going to be bang on the money aren't the Yipper?? Who's the mug really?

Your comparison with the GP to try and turn the tide is also very slack Yipper. Misha has at least compared the speeds of the two cars at around 80 points on the lap, not just one, to form the basis of his argument and has noted where both cars were quicker than the other and where they were equal. He has also noted that where the 918 was quicker than the Performante is was by a larger margin than the where the Performante was quiker than the 918 and these points included many of the corners as well as the straights.

Now it's actually pretty irrelevant to me which will actually turn out faster when the inevitable comparison tests are made with genuine customer cars, all I know is as it stands one persons evidence is a lot more detailed, thought out and intriguing than the others.

I like the 918 which I'm never going to have and I like the Huracan which concievably one day I could. In fact If I were to want a supercar right now my choice would be a manual Gallardo as the older I get the more compact I'm wanting my cars to be, a V10 is my favourite soundtrack and I am a galaxy far, far away from being a racing driver so having four wheel drive would probably be safer for me with that much power so it's not like I have need to defend one brand over the other.

Hopefully the Performante will eventually be judged on how it performs as a drivers car as opposed to being judged as a lap time which obviously only appeals to people like you.


Bodged

116 posts

112 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
foxsasha said:
This sheds some light:

https://youtu.be/9kq3fJmQLok
LOL laughlaughlaugh

gigglebug

2,611 posts

124 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
Didn't see the two posts above mine before I replied as I was busy typing.

Looks as if Yippers case is falling from underneath him already!!

J4CKO

41,789 posts

202 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
Jesus, who gives a toss, its a fast car being driven fast, a car that most of us will never be able to afford and even if we did, we couldnt drive it like that and rarely do our lives depend on getting round a german racetrack faster than something else. Does anyone really buy a car based on its ring time ?

Just enjoy it for what it is, a fantastic machine being used for what it was developed for, how fast it actually goes is irrelevant really, even to a proportion of the owners who, sadly will be more interested in blasting around city/town centres, or perhaps revving it up at lights until it sets fire.

Maldini35

2,913 posts

190 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
Having gone through this thread it seems the arguments have boiled down to:

-Everybody agrees it was a superbly driven lap
-The car sounds great
-A lot of skepticism over the car involved being 'hooky'
-Some doubt to the timing/speeds involved by an analysis of the data and the fact it was not independently verified.
-A Lambo PR guy (YIPPER) defending his PR story with the grace of Donald Trump. FAKE NEWS!

If you are going to base the entire launch of a car based on an objective, factual, performance statistic (i.e. a Ring lap time) it is reasonable to expect some scrutiny.
We are talking about claimed FACT not opinion.
If you claim a fact you should be able to back up up with real evidence.
In the absence of any real independent evidence people will be skeptical. It's human nature.
To try and belittle or rubbish others thoughts, theories or opinions in the absence of any trustworthy facts is poor form and straight out of the Trump playbook.

It looks like an interesting car just a shame the marketing/PR machine at Lamborghini have taken such a heavy handed approach.

isaldiri

18,808 posts

170 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
Jesus, who gives a toss, its a fast car being driven fast, a car that most of us will never be able to afford and even if we did, we couldnt drive it like that and rarely do our lives depend on getting round a german racetrack faster than something else. Does anyone really buy a car based on its ring time ?
Is it that much of a surprise? It's an extraordinary claim from lambo to have done that time in a road car. Given PH is a car forum, people are naturally going to be interested in trying to figure out how they did so.

RamboLambo

4,843 posts

172 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
Massive Own Goal scored here by Lamborghini PR department that has been found out and exposed as a FAKE ring time.

Some will say any publicity is good publicity but in this case I would say its already damaged the credibility of the Performante before its even launched.
The sad thing is that it would have probably set a reasonably fast time without all the cheating

MCBrowncoat

911 posts

148 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
isaldiri said:
MCBrowncoat said:
Okay, well that's interesting. But I think then we might be making the same point? Believe me I'm not trying to start an argument! It seems like the speedo thing isn't conclusive to build an analysis from? Going back to my original post it felt like the Huracan was accelerating out of the corners quicker/sooner, and maybe there's potential to be braking deeper? Given the sheer number of corners couldn't that possibly give it that edge? Like I said earlier, I'd be genuinely interested to hear an expert/aerodynamicists/engineers view on it!
Over a long distance where the gps signal is steady (or steady-ish), the gps speeds should be very accurate. more so than speedometer readings.

As Max_torque said earlier, plus given the camera placement difference, if your eye can judge a ~1% speed differential for the car accelerating quicker then you have remarkable eyesight.

As I also said earlier, given the 'aero' has been massively hyped about for the huracan, it's minimum cornering speeds should be much higher than the 918 as it's relying on aero grip to make up a huge power differential to the 918.

MCBrowncoat

911 posts

148 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
MCBrowncoat said:
isaldiri said:
MCBrowncoat said:
Okay, well that's interesting. But I think then we might be making the same point? Believe me I'm not trying to start an argument! It seems like the speedo thing isn't conclusive to build an analysis from? Going back to my original post it felt like the Huracan was accelerating out of the corners quicker/sooner, and maybe there's potential to be braking deeper? Given the sheer number of corners couldn't that possibly give it that edge? Like I said earlier, I'd be genuinely interested to hear an expert/aerodynamicists/engineers view on it!
Over a long distance where the gps signal is steady (or steady-ish), the gps speeds should be very accurate. more so than speedometer readings.

As Max_torque said earlier, plus given the camera placement difference, if your eye can judge a ~1% speed differential for the car accelerating quicker then you have remarkable eyesight.

As I also said earlier, given the 'aero' has been massively hyped about for the huracan, it's minimum cornering speeds should be much higher than the 918 as it's relying on aero grip to make up a huge power differential to the 918.
I'd say I'm pretty observant yes, but I don't think you need to be. Here's the link again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U0myjPFlGY

Fast forward it to 1:20. Aremberg. to me it looks like the Lambo aceelrates out of that sooner. The Porsche looks laboured. Down the Foxhole the Porsche catches up so that they enter the left right left right Adenauer-First section at precisely the same time. Out of that section the Lambo looks to be about a second+ ahead. What are you seeing that I'm not seeing?

Here's another example: fast forward to the corkscrew at approx 4:05. What I see is the Lambo nail it through and out. It's definitely much quicker through that one corner. Are you not seeing that?

Forget what the speedo is saying in the bottom corner, I don't think that can be wholly trusted/is inaccurate/is laggy/drops off/whatever....just watch the footage

Or maybe I just have extraordinary eyesight?

ChocolateFrog

25,917 posts

175 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
MCBrowncoat said:
MCBrowncoat said:
isaldiri said:
MCBrowncoat said:
Okay, well that's interesting. But I think then we might be making the same point? Believe me I'm not trying to start an argument! It seems like the speedo thing isn't conclusive to build an analysis from? Going back to my original post it felt like the Huracan was accelerating out of the corners quicker/sooner, and maybe there's potential to be braking deeper? Given the sheer number of corners couldn't that possibly give it that edge? Like I said earlier, I'd be genuinely interested to hear an expert/aerodynamicists/engineers view on it!
Over a long distance where the gps signal is steady (or steady-ish), the gps speeds should be very accurate. more so than speedometer readings.

As Max_torque said earlier, plus given the camera placement difference, if your eye can judge a ~1% speed differential for the car accelerating quicker then you have remarkable eyesight.

As I also said earlier, given the 'aero' has been massively hyped about for the huracan, it's minimum cornering speeds should be much higher than the 918 as it's relying on aero grip to make up a huge power differential to the 918.
I'd say I'm pretty observant yes, but I don't think you need to be. Here's the link again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U0myjPFlGY

Fast forward it to 1:20. Aremberg. to me it looks like the Lambo aceelrates out of that sooner. The Porsche looks laboured. Down the Foxhole the Porsche catches up so that they enter the left right left right Adenauer-First section at precisely the same time. Out of that section the Lambo looks to be about a second+ ahead. What are you seeing that I'm not seeing?

Here's another example: fast forward to the corkscrew at approx 4:05. What I see is the Lambo nail it through and out. It's definitely much quicker through that one corner. Are you not seeing that?

Forget what the speedo is saying in the bottom corner, I don't think that can be wholly trusted/is inaccurate/is laggy/drops off/whatever....just watch the footage

Or maybe I just have extraordinary eyesight?
Or maybe the video has been sped up, who knows.

I think it matters because we generally have a collective sense of fairness, moreso than VAG judging by recent history. To see a manufacturer supposedly cheat to generate publicity just isn't cricket and if they have they should be outed.

boxerTen

501 posts

206 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
foxsasha said:
Note the carefully worded text. The article reads, at first scan, like all the Performantes will run the tyre used in the record attempt. Thats not what it actually says. What it says is that Pirelli developed tyres specifically for the record attempt but the customer cars will run their own version of the Trofeo.
Slightly stickier tyres would be quite enough to explain the time, or absent that, a bigger helping of downforce. We are only looking for about 10 seconds, so 2 or 3% more speed through the corners, which implies 4 to 6% more adhesion, or effective weight.

gigglebug

2,611 posts

124 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
quotequote all
foxsasha said:
Note the carefully worded text. The article reads, at first scan, like all the Performantes will run the tyre used in the record attempt. Thats not what it actually says. What it says is that Pirelli developed tyres specifically for the record attempt but the customer cars will run their own version of the Trofeo.

What I take from that is that theyve covered themselves with that release for the Ring car to run custom one lap wonder slicks, or as close to as makes no difference, and that the road car will run a more normal variant of the usual Trofeo.

"Press release from Pirelli...

Milan, March 3, 2017 - Using specially-developed Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R tyres, Lamborghini has beaten the lap record at the Nurburgring in Germany.

Pirelli equipped the new Lamborghini Huracan Performante that set a lap time of 6m52.1s around the legendary Nordschleife on October 5 last year, breaking the existing production car record.

The Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R tyres, in 245/30ZR20 at the front and 305/30ZR20 at the back were designed specifically by Pirelli's engineers for the record attempt. The team was able to develop these tyres in just three months, thanks to advanced modelling techniques and correlation of on-track data with telemetry.

As a result, the combined work of Pirelli and Lamborghini's engineers meant that a base set-up was established with just one development session.

Together with Lamborghini's research and development team, the Pirelli engineers responsible for developing specific tyres for the Huracan Performante were also present at the Nurburgring when the record was broken.

The P Zero Trofeo R has been specifically designed to complement the performance of extreme cars – especially on a racing circuit – in complete safety. The tyres react precisely to the driver's inputs while on the limit, typical of circuit driving. On dry asphalt, P Zero Trofeo R ensures high levels of grip and consist handling even under the most extreme conditions.

P Zero Trofeo R uses motorsport-derived compounds made from innovative materials as well as a redesigned tread pattern. These have led to extraordinary results, both in terms of increased stability and improved lateral roadholding in the dry, while at the same time reducing wear.

From the track, the new Huracan Performante now goes on show: the car will be previewed globally at the Geneva Motor Show, wearing made to measure P Zero Corsa road tyres."

Edited by foxsasha on Saturday 4th March 09:44
Well I suppose if this information is correct we can probably draw some loose comparisons to the P1 times Chris Harris set with it's different versions of the Pirelli's. It was 1.7 seconds quicker on it's Trofeo R tyres than it was on it's Corsa tyres on a 1 min 50 ish lap. Expand that to a 7 minute lap and you've the potential for around 6 seconds or so depending on whether the tyre would give a larger or smaller advantage on a track like the Ring as oppose to a smaller track like the one in Chris's video. Not a horrendous amount of time but still relevant.