RE: Tell me I'm wrong: Honda Civic Type R (EP3)

[otolith]

Mutton said:

The suspension was far too stiff for the type of country roads I tend to drive on with the car feeling extremely skittish across lumps and bumps with no wheel control whatsoever.

That is a fair criticism - when I bought the RX-8, in some places it could be driven faster and could use more of the width of the road than the Civic could, for that reason.

Mutton said:

The benefits of the fancy independent rear suspension were completely lost on this car.

Based on reports of how much worse the subsequent model rides without it, that might not be quite true.

Mutton said:

The electric assisted steering is among the worst I have ever experienced.

All the early EPS systems were crap - they should have engineered a hydraulic solution for the Type-R, but then it was a 16 grand bargain.

Mutton said:

Lack of traction (even in the dry) – especially when transitioning into the V-Tec zone. Surprising considering the relatively low peak torque figures.

Not really surprising considering the short gearing, and very dependent on the condition of the tyres, I found. Nowhere near as bad as this Saab I've got now, though...

Mutton said:

Poor interior build quality - was very surprised and annoyed by the amount of rattles and buzzes coming from various pieces of interior trim.

Mine was really well built, but I know other people who had really rattly examples. Suspect more inconsistently put together rather than a design issue. British made

[Ali_T]

doogz said:

True. Which only serves to point out, there are other things to consider.

Obviously, both the cars in question are NA, but that doesn't mean the slightly newer, heavier, more powerful one can't be quicker.

The EG6 VTI had the same engine in milder tune. It had similar torque, similar drivetrain, similar suspension (in fact, near identical) and a similar on/off VTEC character. It was also similarly difficult to launch. 7.0 secs was the best any magazine ever managed to test it to 60. 7.0 secs is the best any magazine managed to test the EK9. I'm not comparing apples and oranges here. I'm comparing practically the same car with slightly more power and slightly heavier and saying it's no surprise they perform similarly. You're suggesting that a bunch of Youtube videos of uncertain origin prove me wrong.

[Ali_T]

doogz said:

For me, you don't have to compare it to something sublime, to realise it's not that good. Pretty much anything. Especially if you ever drive anything without power steering. I love proper manual steering!

I'd go further. Had the worst steering feel of any car I've owned, and that list includes the 09 Impreza STI, which was almost, but not quite, as bad. I've not owned anything "sublime" but the RX8s and current Evo X I have are miles ahead. Going back to the Eg6 and DC2, both were leagues ahead of the EP3.

[Mikeyboy]

Dagnut said:

Mikeyboy said:

The turn circle made getting it around the standard multi storey a multi point turn event in tight continental car parks.

That's the price you pay for having a front LSD

Actually i had no idea it had an LSD at all. So yes that does explain it, and the understeer I could induce if I wasn't being very careful.

[Ali_T]

Then you're saying every magazine that ever tested one is lying to. Have you ever driven one? It's nowhere near a sub 6 second to 60 car. In fact, it barely feels a 7 second car. It always surprised me how heavy it felt after the EG6.

[ultrastapler]

I didn't realise the EP3 CTR was supposed to be any good?

K20 is a great engine, but the EP3 chassis isn't a patch on the EK9, DC2 or even the hottest versions of the EG/EFs. There's no substitute for double wishbones all round and less weight.

[otolith]

doogz said:

otolith said:

Mutton said:

The electric assisted steering is among the worst I have ever experienced.

All the early EPS systems were crap - they should have engineered a hydraulic solution for the Type-R, but then it was a 16 grand bargain.

Could have made the E-power steering an optional extra, with the other option being manual steering? Worked for Peugeot for years.

I think unassisted steering on a nose-heavy 1200kg car with 205 section tyres would have been considered unacceptable in 2001 - would have been either very, very heavy or very, very slow - too much of a compromise for most buyers, I think.

[Riff Raff]

Mikeyboy said:

Dagnut said:

Mikeyboy said:

The turn circle made getting it around the standard multi storey a multi point turn event in tight continental car parks.

That's the price you pay for having a front LSD

Actually i had no idea it had an LSD at all. So yes that does explain it, and the understeer I could induce if I wasn't being very careful.

Err, unless you had a JDM model it didn't have a LSD. Unless you put one in.

[snorkel sucker]

I bought one back in 2005. It was my first "real" performance car, with the car I chopped in to get it being a Ford Puma. I recall the day I picked the Civic up - driving through the town waiting to get onto the dual carriageway I knew was coming up, just to feel all that power, that cam change, that noise! I had set my heart on the Type R long before and I loved it for the time I had it. It was fast enough for a then 23 year old and I even remember having my first lift off oversteer moment in it.

But.. In 2006 I also bought an S2000 and, for a time, had both cars. The Civic sat redundant for weeks until I loaded it up for a trip to Scotland, with me and 3 friends. What memories I recall from stepping from the S2000 into the Civic were that the i-vtec engine was much much more tractable than the older engine in the S2000. The meerest whiff of throttle seemed to whisk you forward in comparison. The gearing I also remember to be so much different; shorter ratios meant that you felt you could keep the car on the boil more often, and easier than the S2000.

What didn't impress - and to be honest it was noticeable when I drove the Civic full time - was the steering. It has no feel. At all. I even recall my Dad, who has little interest in performance cars anymore, remarking how bad it was. But you drove through it's awfulness. Traction was also highlighted as a weakspot when coming from the S2000. I vividly recall pulling out of a damp junction in the Civic after weeks of driving the S2000, and wondering where the last minute of my life had gone in the wake of tumultuous wheelspin. It needed an LSD. Badly.

So, Chris, I do partially agree with what you are getting at, and maybe I look back with rose tinted glasses as it was my first taste of performance motoring, but the EP3 Type R did have character and I think the fact it DID have that engine and gearbox perhaps masked some of its other flaws. But, then again, I am sure we could all name several cars where their lack of perfection doesn't detract from their perceived greatness.

I do think that they represent an absolute performance bargain at the moment though. Two bags of sand for a decent one. Strip it out and fit some choice mods (of which the list is endless) and you would have a very capable b-road blaster or track day hooligan.

[Dagnut]

Riff Raff said:

Mikeyboy said:

Dagnut said:

Mikeyboy said:

The turn circle made getting it around the standard multi storey a multi point turn event in tight continental car parks.

That's the price you pay for having a front LSD

Actually i had no idea it had an LSD at all. So yes that does explain it, and the understeer I could induce if I wasn't being very careful.

Err, unless you had a JDM model it didn't have a LSD. Unless you put one in.

Oh ok I didn't know they had different spec's it was the JDM one I drove.

[Baryonyx]

ultrastapler said:

I didn't realise the EP3 CTR was supposed to be any good?

Have you had your head up your arse for the past ten years?

Edited by Baryonyx on Wednesday 11th January 16:22

[RVVUNM]

I have a CTR 04/54 with 65k miles and use it every day for work. I drive 18 miles each way and use A-B roads and a small section of motorway. I love the car but I did make one modification. I fitted a set of these http://www.bc-racing.co.uk/c-bca16/honda-civic-ep3... and a set of Toyo Proxi TR1's, WOW what an improvement. It's a pussy cat and mad nutter all rolled into one.

[kingstondc5]

ultrastapler said:

I didn't realise the EP3 CTR was supposed to be any good?

K20 is a great engine, but the EP3 chassis isn't a patch on the EK9, DC2 or even the hottest versions of the EG/EFs. There's no substitute for double wishbones all round and less weight.

Do you really think if they built an EP3 to poverty spec/similar spec as the older models, itd have sold as many as Honda did?

You only have to look at DC2 sales for the answer

[rdodger]

I pretty much agree with Chris.

I had a very late one with AC and Recaro seats.

I am average height and build and never really found the ideal driving position. The steering was just horrible. Sometimes it just couldn't keep up with the steering wheel and was devoid of feel.

The drivetrain made up for all the short comings though.

I enjoyed our year together but never really bonded with it. I would have a MK2 Golf GTI 16v, 205 GTI before I had another.

[Ali_T]

kingstondc5 said:

Do you really think if they built an EP3 to poverty spec/similar spec as the older models, itd have sold as many as Honda did?

You only have to look at DC2 sales for the answer

One of my biggest regrets was buying an EP3 over a heavily discounted last of the line DC2. In hindsight, the DC2 was far the better car. In fact, I'd happily say my 1992 EG6 VTi was a better car in everything bar grip, and it wasn't far behind there.

Someone also congratulated Honda on not following the power war at the time of the EP3s introduction, but the EP3 WAS the most powerful hatch at that point. I remember Autocar struggling for rivals and choosing the MG ZR160 and ST170 as the best they could find, the Golf behind a dreadfully bloated pastiche of it's previous self at that point and fast Astras generally being a joke. The one legacy the EP3 should be proud of was the reinvigoration of the hot hatch that followed its lead. Remember that fast Imprezas only had 215bhp then, and 240bhp through Prodrive, and cost a good £6000 more.

Edited by Ali_T on Wednesday 11th January 17:20

[shoestring7]

Chris Peacock said:

What was not to like Chris?

I think you'll read he found the steering like mogodon and the chassis over sprung and underdamped.

Harris is correct. I tried one with a view to buy having run a CRX-vtec for a while. I'd hoped Honda has sorted the chassis (the CRX had the same spring/damper match weakness) but they hadn't. In addition the steering was woeful; compared to a MINI Cooper I'd arrived in it was utterly without feel.

Shame as so much of the car was excellent.

SS7

[TobesH]

For me, the equivalent 2002 Ford Focus RS MK1 was my choice, I did 50k miles in mine and it was a usable, quick car with strong mid range punch and lots of grip

Before this I had a new 2002 Boxster S for a year and that struggled to keep up with one of these Honda's Civic Type R thingy's - I found the Focus RS was real world quicker... mind you I'm a lazy drive and prefer turbo's.

[toppstuff]

I agree with Chris H on this. There was, and remains, something not quite right with the CTR.

I think it is a car for gamers.

Bare with me here - what i mean is that the Civic Type R always felt too numb and somehow, synthetic. It is like a game of Grand Turismo on the PS3.

I have driven several and seriously considered one. But I ended up with a Mini Cooper S Works. It just had more "feel" and was somehow more "real" and less "virtual"..

[traffman]

Granted the steering can feel light , however on trying various tyre's over the years it is crucial , plus fiddling with tyre pressures does help a touch.

Toyo proxes , yokohama , bridgestone's and believe or not the hankook ones seems to be the sweetest.

I will change it sometime , god knows what to though.

[Mastodon2]

hora said:

Question to CTR owners, when do you shift and usually in which gear? Is there a knack I'm missing?

On the drive to work, in traffic, after warming up, there is no need to keep it high in the range - drive it like any other 2.0L NA car. When the opportunity presents, and it's warmed through, you shift up at the redline for as long as you dare to travel at such speeds!

If is one thing about the Type R brand it's that certainly splits opinion, they are the ultimate Marmite in performance cars. You certainly would not buy one by accident.

My previous car was a Seat Leon Cupra R 225, modified somewhat to achievement about 270bhp. It was hilariously quick in a straight line, but felt every kilo of it's VAG weight. A nicely designed interior, if a little cheap in the plastics department (not that I cared a single bit when I was driving it!), strong engine and a nice gearbox, but it needed coilovers to tidy up the handling, to the point where it was so low the front splitter was removed. In the time I owned the car, I couldn't take it into multistory car parks, or cross those horrific, huge speedbumps you sometimes see on private land. However, it was not perfect - I drove a lot of it's contemporaries before buying it, and I fell in love with it's huge surge of turbocharged power, but I started to hanker for more. Speed became less important, as did all out cornering ability, I wanted more involvement. Typically for a VAG, it had way too much sound-proofing, even enough to block out a Milltek sports exhaust unless you were thrashing it, and as much as I loved the turbo power, and I will always love turbo cars, it almost felt like cheating, as if you pointed the car at a decent straight and it did the rest for you.

I test drove an EP3 on a whim and bought the same one two weeks later. What did the EP3 offer that the Cupra R did not? For a start, snappy, instantaneous throttle response typically of a NA engine, a livelier chassis than the Cupra too; I thought perhaps that the coilovers on the Cupra, while taming the lean and roll, almost took some life from the driving experience as they made the car feel so un-dramatic in the corners. The Civic in comparison felt keener and sharper, and had a real hooligan attitude. Having driven some of the other usual suspects of the Astra VXR (a car I do like) and the Focus ST, the Type R just felt more like a car that was designed for those moments when you want to go flat out and savour the experience, as opposed to a car that was designed to merely travel quickly.

Yes, the steering feel is not the best, but I've never felt it a problem - the Civic is a stiffly sprung car, and in my experience you can always feel enough through the seat and see through observation of the surface how much grip you've got left. Yes, it will oversteer in the wet like no hatchback since, and it will understeer like any FWD car if you enter a corner too fast, but as mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not a car for lazy drivers. If you are excessively used to driving turbo cars or diesels, you may well feel the engine is almost asthmatic as you struggle onwards, chopping and changing gear cack-handedly and stabbing away at the pedals. It's definitely a hot hatch with layers of ability, it doesn't give you everything on a plate or massage your ego with clever traction control, or forgive your poor gear selection by serving up lashings of torque. In this respect, I found it the exact opposite of a MK5 Golf GTi that I drove - a car which I would describe as competent at speedy transport, but offering a driving experience so remote and artificial unless you desperately need to be somewhere immediately, such as at a hospital where your wife has just gone into labour, but in terms of "reward" or "enjoyment" it's almost not worth the risk of driving it quickly.

And it's that "reward" that makes it such a good car, and by my judging, should have been reviewed well by a magazine whose tagline used to be "The Thrill of Driving" - though it wasn't particularly well received by them. One of the key things for me, part of the reward of driving it as Honda intended, is the noise it makes. You simply will not hear a better noise from a 4 cylinder as far as I'm concerned. The bass at low revs, the growl that starts at 2800rpm and turns into a high pitched hum past 3500rpm, the scream as you sweep past 5800rpm towards the redline, it's absolutely hair-raising. I am an admitted car-audiophile, in that I don't car how fast a car is or how well it handles if it sounds crap. It's the ultimate icing on the cake for me, and the Civic Type R just delivers it in spades. From intake to exhaust, there are loads of options to improve it too, I'm getting a Spoon N1 backbox for mine in the near future. As mentioned in the buying guide in last month's EVO, very few now have the standard exhaust; I'm often vocal of my disdain for dull, restrictive OEM exhausts, which are often designed, even on performance cars, to meet noise restrictions and offer little else. The Type Rs sound better than the competition as standard, and even a simple modification like an unsilenced B pipe (centre silencer delete) really starts to open the gap.

It is compromised - it's not a relaxing car to drive, it doesn't have the LSD it deserved, but it's still a bloody quick car. It might not have the ultimate pace of the Cupra that went before it, but it's immeasurably more fun to drive, and I think that applies to many other modern hot hatches now too. People might complain about this and that with the EP3 now, but in another 5 years, or maybe even less, you simply will not see NA hot hatches any more. While it's not perfect, and no car is, the Civic does have some very strong things stacked in it's favour, and as Honda sold loads of them, so you don't have to travel across the country to look at one.


EDIT:

It's worth adding mine is an 05 facelift, with the revisions (copied from Wikipedia):

revised EPS with quicker steering, revised suspension settings, projector headlamps (JDM came equipped with halogens only while the EDM came with an option for HIDs with leveling motors), lighter clutch and flywheel assembly etc.; based on Honda literature, this facelifted (FL) model was targeted at addressing customers' and critics' feedback such as understeer on the limit (due to the front Macpherson strut setup), numb steering response and lack of low end torque.

Edited by Mastodon2 on Wednesday 11th January 17:53