RE: PH Blog: the best M3? It's the 1 M!
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It doesn't add up to you as your view of interaction is fixated on bodily movements in operating a manual transmission. Yes, a good manual gearbox is great, but so too is a good robotised manual, as the quicker and more precise changes of gears adds another level of sharpness and control to a powerful sports car, and for me, this heightens my perception of interaction with my car, given the more precise control I have over it. Not only that, I too have to decide what settings I should configure my gear box for the prevailing conditions. It may not be as physical as a manual, but it can just be as mentally interactive. I too have a manual car and while it's only a run about, I do also have fun with it occasionally. Yes, the computer is swapping gears for me, but it is still me that chooses what, when and how, in sequential mode. I love a good manual as much as I love a good robo-manual. Both can give great levels of feedback and control to the driver in different ways.
Edited by mlhj83 on Wednesday 30th January 03:38
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Only in your mind it does.It's no less involving at all, it's just DIFFERENT. It's about adapting. By your own measurement, a modern all-synchro box is less involving in the driving process than an old crash box where you have to double de-clutch......
(like those of us of advancing age can remember learning to drive on)Now if you want to whitter on about cars that self park, self brake and all that nonsence, that we'll be singing from the same songbook
cloudburstt said:
Ive been a reader for a number of years on this forum. Never posted. Just read.
It always makes me laugh to the point of falling off my chair when the manual v's semi auto argument arises.
Technology moves on.
The problem is, half of these people who post these nonsense comments about manual boxes being better than the DCT have never driven a car or owned a car with a DCT type set up. People quoting such nonsense about 'wheres the fun' blah blah blah. Have you ever driven an M3 DCT? Let me tell you, its fun alright.
Ive owned my E92 M3 DCT for nearly a year now. Both hands on the steering wheel, gear change quicker than you can blink. Safer. I could go on. I was very skeptical about the DCT set up, but let me tell you something, it puts a smile on my face every time i want a tear up.
Ive been a petrol head for 20 years and have all manner of cars. Hot hatches. Big engined cruisers. Would i ever go back to manual over DCT? Not a chance.
I work for BMW, so have driven just about every iteration of DCT/SMG/Flappy things here, or any of our competition, on track, on road, and day to day (in 8hour shifts doing application). They are good for two things; they either belong on a track with a fit 22 year old driving, a full roll cage and a trophy up for grabs along with championship points, or on emissions rolls to get a nice big engine through emissions limits or company targets. Thats it. It always makes me laugh to the point of falling off my chair when the manual v's semi auto argument arises.
Technology moves on.
The problem is, half of these people who post these nonsense comments about manual boxes being better than the DCT have never driven a car or owned a car with a DCT type set up. People quoting such nonsense about 'wheres the fun' blah blah blah. Have you ever driven an M3 DCT? Let me tell you, its fun alright.
Ive owned my E92 M3 DCT for nearly a year now. Both hands on the steering wheel, gear change quicker than you can blink. Safer. I could go on. I was very skeptical about the DCT set up, but let me tell you something, it puts a smile on my face every time i want a tear up.
Ive been a petrol head for 20 years and have all manner of cars. Hot hatches. Big engined cruisers. Would i ever go back to manual over DCT? Not a chance.
If you can't drive a manual fast, and dont want to learn to, you aren't IMO a performance car enthusiast. The challenge, the skill, the sense of personal satisfaction, thats basically what enthusiasts are going for. Shifting faster than you can blink is pretty useless when it comes to any of those, I can go do that in a Koenigsegg Agera R or even an F1 car on my console at home. It inspires literally that much passion for me, button clicking.
Sorry if this sounds bitter, it's because it is. I want a n/a 6, as many revs as you can squeeze out of it, and a 6 speed. f
k what I pay a year in tax or fuel. And I don't think I'm alone on that one.Big fan of the CSL, but christ it would be better with the standard box. Imagine all the gratuitous gearchanges, rev matching and double de-clutching me Dale and Chris (and most of this forum) could be getting up to with that noise
Mastodon2 said:
I hear BMW make some great diesels these days.
I sure they do. I've only ever driven an Audi diesel which revved to about 4000rpm and sounded like a tractor. Wasn't fun at all!mlhj83 said:
Just to add.
The 1M is a great car.
But saying that revving a purpose built high revving NA is lunacy on the road is like calling all the GT3s, RSs, Ferraris, Lambos etc. pointless. Low down torque or high rpm power, either one works, it's just a matter of preference. My M3 copes very well with the most demanding of roads with all the other 1Ms on our trips (including going airborne sideways), which you may have seen on Bimmerpost and Aussie's Polar Bear thread. Thumbs up for 2 great M-cars - both have their respective deficiencies and merits in terms of performance.
I didn't say it was lunacy for the road, I said that I didn't want to look like a lunatic revving the hell out of it just so I could hit that "sweet spot" when overtaking. Please note that this is just my personal opinion after driven a competition package car over the space of a couple of years. Stunning car, very comfortable, sounded good, but ultimately it wasn't for me. The 1M is a great car.
But saying that revving a purpose built high revving NA is lunacy on the road is like calling all the GT3s, RSs, Ferraris, Lambos etc. pointless. Low down torque or high rpm power, either one works, it's just a matter of preference. My M3 copes very well with the most demanding of roads with all the other 1Ms on our trips (including going airborne sideways), which you may have seen on Bimmerpost and Aussie's Polar Bear thread. Thumbs up for 2 great M-cars - both have their respective deficiencies and merits in terms of performance.
Edited by mlhj83 on Tuesday 29th January 23:21
Rsmatt said:
I don't see why both n/a engines like the m3 and turbo engines like the 1m's can't both be appreciated both are fantastic in there own right and make the cars a joy to drive in different ways perhaps but none the less great fun why if you like one you have to belittle the other is beyond me!
Which is probably what I should have said in the first place.
Well exactly. Like I've said countless times on here, most people who don't like the 1M are basing it on what they read in the spec sheet. They've never driven one and have little intention of doing so because it uses a devils spawn forced induction engine. These are probably the same people predicated the values falling off a cliff after a year. Hmmmm think they've been wrong on both of their assumptions Which is probably what I should have said in the first place.
Having said that, if anyone drives it and doesn't like it, then fine. It's no different to me driving an M3 and not getting on with it.
hmanuk said:
It's funny how people get all argumentative about the engines in M cars nowadays. Yes traditionally M cars have all been NA units over the years but surely a good M car is about how it handles and feels on the road, not forgetting the sense of occasion it delivers.
I have a 1M and enjoy driving it very much. I regard it as a modern M car with a bit of old school engineered into it.
Couldn't agree more!! Actually given the choice of an M3 with a NA and an M3 with a couple of turbos, I'd take the forced induction car. Just prefer it. Every time I drive my 1M I get that sense of occasion. It's tight, firm, focused, communicative, precise and above all, a hell of a lot of fun I have a 1M and enjoy driving it very much. I regard it as a modern M car with a bit of old school engineered into it.
Baryonyx said:
The engine is an integral part of the car. It's not enough for an M car to just handle well, IMO. It has to have a great engine. The old M car engines were triumphs. Absolutely stunning, high revving N/A screamers. Sadly, EU bureaucracy has put paid to those sorts of engines. A big part of the attachment to the old M cars is that they were stunning and did not compromise to achieve their goals. Now, they're using forced induction. The purity of the old cars is gone, for better or worse. Many drivers enjoy N/A engines, especially driving enthusiasts who love a sharp throttle and a powerband that is high in the rev range.
It is a shame that EU regs are killing of these sorts of engines I agree. However having come from cars like a Caterham Superlight, Lotus Elise and Lotus Exige, handling to me is really important. That connected feel that you get when you feel the car biting into the tarmac as you go around a corner. The feedback through the wheel, feeling the level of grip and managing a well balanced car are all things that I enjoy about driving. Now I'm not saying the 1M handles like a Lotus because it doesn't, but it does provide incredible feedback along with an ability to put a smile on your face even on the most mundane roads Edited by ChrisBuer on Wednesday 30th January 08:36
German said:
I work for BMW, so have driven just about every iteration of DCT/SMG/Flappy things here, or any of our competition, on track, on road, and day to day (in 8hour shifts doing application). They are good for two things; they either belong on a track with a fit 22 year old driving, a full roll cage and a trophy up for grabs along with championship points, or on emissions rolls to get a nice big engine through emissions limits or company targets. Thats it.
If you can't drive a manual fast, and dont want to learn to, you aren't IMO a performance car enthusiast The challenge, the skill, the sense of personal satisfaction, thats basically what enthusiasts are going for. Shifting faster than you can blink is pretty useless when it comes to any of those, I can go do that in a Koenigsegg Agera R or even an F1 car on my console at home. It inspires literally that much passion for me, button clicking.
Sorry if this sounds bitter, it's because it is. I want a n/a 6, as many revs as you can squeeze out of it, and a 6 speed. fk what I pay a year in tax or fuel. And I don't think I'm alone on that one.
Big fan of the CSL, but christ it would be better with the standard box. Imagine all the gratuitous gearchanges, rev matching and double de-clutching me Dale and Chris (and most of this forum) could be getting up to with that noise
Could someone tell me if this is a "tongue-in-cheek" comment? When someone supposedly from BMW comes on and implies that CSL-owners aren't proper performance car enthusiasts then I think it's time for me to bow out of this conversation anywayIf you can't drive a manual fast, and dont want to learn to, you aren't IMO a performance car enthusiast The challenge, the skill, the sense of personal satisfaction, thats basically what enthusiasts are going for. Shifting faster than you can blink is pretty useless when it comes to any of those, I can go do that in a Koenigsegg Agera R or even an F1 car on my console at home. It inspires literally that much passion for me, button clicking.
Sorry if this sounds bitter, it's because it is. I want a n/a 6, as many revs as you can squeeze out of it, and a 6 speed. f
k what I pay a year in tax or fuel. And I don't think I'm alone on that one.Big fan of the CSL, but christ it would be better with the standard box. Imagine all the gratuitous gearchanges, rev matching and double de-clutching me Dale and Chris (and most of this forum) could be getting up to with that noise
Advevo said:
I own two 1m coupe s. One daily and one for track and driftdays. Call me nuts to own 2 of them. But i find the 1m one of the best fun cars i have owned and driven. I never thought a turbo engine from bmw could manage that after owning e36 3.0 m3, e46 m3, e46 m3 cs, e46 m3 csl, e90 m3. For me the 1m coupe is a sort of escort mk2 rally car. The car is so nicely playable. You can drift it on throttle. It also has a proper mechanical handbrake for some nice hairpins I will only sell them if bmw comes with an M2 which has the same bulldog looks and a mechanical hanbrake and rear diff. Then after a testdrive i might consider buying one if it gives equal fun as the 1m coupe.
The new M3/M4 will be an awesome car but the long wheelbase is putting me off. I want a wheel base not much longer then a 1m coupe. It makes the car so playable and for me that s a big sellingpoint. I car must keep you entertained and a 1M Coupe does that very very good.
By the way, great videos chap! I will only sell them if bmw comes with an M2 which has the same bulldog looks and a mechanical hanbrake and rear diff. Then after a testdrive i might consider buying one if it gives equal fun as the 1m coupe. The new M3/M4 will be an awesome car but the long wheelbase is putting me off. I want a wheel base not much longer then a 1m coupe. It makes the car so playable and for me that s a big sellingpoint. I car must keep you entertained and a 1M Coupe does that very very good.
I would buy a 1M over the current M3 as i think it looks better and more purposeful but saying that the 1M with the V8 from the M3 would have made the car better in my opinion, perfect in fact (personally this in convertible would be ideal for me depending on the ability to keep the current look of the 1M).
Whilst i can appreciate the benefits of FI the noise of a powerful, highly strung N/A engine is something that is highly desirable in a car especially if your priority when driving is enjoyment. A powerful turbo engine is impressive but iv heard a few 1M's with aftermarket pipes and they don't come close to a similarly modified M3 (E46/E92). Thats not to says everyone prefers a car that is loud as some compromise for practicality or personal preference.
A similar principal can be applied to the Gearbox. No matter what car iv driven auto boxes (esepcially paddles) just feel like im playing a driving game with a false steering wheel on Playstation. The lack of a clutch feels strange and the ability to be stupid (however rare) is not really there especially with increasingly intrusive TC systems.
I disagree on the point that paddle shifts are equally involving. Theoretically if driver A had only driven an auto and was asked to drive a manual he would be lost whereas if driver B had driven a manual and was asked to drive an auto his ability would be equal. Manuals(especially on track) are a lot harder to drive faster as its not just about braking and placing the car but ensuring the right gear is selected early, smooth controlled gear changes and so forth with a lot more margin for error and its a lot easier to unsettle the car.
The combination of intrusive TC and an auto-box that doesn't do exactly as told quickly gets frustrating some of the AMG models are a prime example of this and are the exact reason i didn't opt for an SLK55AMG despite the epic sound it was quite a way down my "list".
In a car where practicality is not a primary concern RWD, a high powered highly strung N/A and manual would be my preference although admittedly most cars come as package so compromises are usually made for various reasons........
Whilst i can appreciate the benefits of FI the noise of a powerful, highly strung N/A engine is something that is highly desirable in a car especially if your priority when driving is enjoyment. A powerful turbo engine is impressive but iv heard a few 1M's with aftermarket pipes and they don't come close to a similarly modified M3 (E46/E92). Thats not to says everyone prefers a car that is loud as some compromise for practicality or personal preference.
A similar principal can be applied to the Gearbox. No matter what car iv driven auto boxes (esepcially paddles) just feel like im playing a driving game with a false steering wheel on Playstation. The lack of a clutch feels strange and the ability to be stupid (however rare) is not really there especially with increasingly intrusive TC systems.
I disagree on the point that paddle shifts are equally involving. Theoretically if driver A had only driven an auto and was asked to drive a manual he would be lost whereas if driver B had driven a manual and was asked to drive an auto his ability would be equal. Manuals(especially on track) are a lot harder to drive faster as its not just about braking and placing the car but ensuring the right gear is selected early, smooth controlled gear changes and so forth with a lot more margin for error and its a lot easier to unsettle the car.
The combination of intrusive TC and an auto-box that doesn't do exactly as told quickly gets frustrating some of the AMG models are a prime example of this and are the exact reason i didn't opt for an SLK55AMG despite the epic sound it was quite a way down my "list".
In a car where practicality is not a primary concern RWD, a high powered highly strung N/A and manual would be my preference although admittedly most cars come as package so compromises are usually made for various reasons........
Edited by Froomee on Wednesday 30th January 09:33
rossi1 said:
The 1M is not and never will be an M3, The 1M is the M3`s smaller more mincey little brother.
A good car and quick it may be but with its Turbo lump and 1 series body it just doesn't cut it. IMO.
Right ok, Continue talking it down even though everyone know's its the better car.A good car and quick it may be but with its Turbo lump and 1 series body it just doesn't cut it. IMO.
I for one will be buying one next!
I might take a while, but a 306 GTi-6 with a supercharger should see me thorugh the mean time
eliotrw said:
Right ok, Continue talking it down even though everyone know's its the better car.
I for one will be buying one next!
I might take a while, but a 306 GTi-6 with a supercharger should see me thorugh the mean time
It is just an opinion from a non owner no doubt but still entitled to an opinion.... But live with one everyday and you will know the score.... A test drive is nothing more than looking at the front cover of a book and reading the snippet on the back......It gives you a taste of what there is to come, but reading the entire contents of the book tells the WHOLE story! I for one will be buying one next!
I might take a while, but a 306 GTi-6 with a supercharger should see me thorugh the mean time
Edited by aussieinlondon on Wednesday 30th January 10:20
Is there anyone on here (or Chris Harris if you're reading) that can give an objective summary explaining the differences in feel between an E46 M3/1M/E92 M3 from experience, I'd be interested to hear.
Having owned an E46 M3 CS and a couple of E92 M3's (driven a few CSL's as well) I'd like to hear how the 1M compares.
Having owned an E46 M3 CS and a couple of E92 M3's (driven a few CSL's as well) I'd like to hear how the 1M compares.
NDNDNDND said:
Lazygraduate said:
NDNDNDND said:
I can't help but think these 'flappy-paddle evangelists' aren't real petrolheads...
Go and play with your Xbox.
Really...? I think that's a bit of a silly thing to say, don't you?Go and play with your Xbox.
Out of interest, have you ever driven the type of 'flappy-paddle' cars being discussed here?
and then it turns out you havent even driven.. let alone OWNED a flappy paddle car.
Driving for 10 mins.. and owning and living with in different driving enviroments are two different things.
I LOVE a decent flappy paddle box and I'd like to think I'm very much a proper petrolhead! I don't know anyone as crazy about cars as I am!
P.S Dale, that looked an AWESOME day out mate. Nice one dude!
NDNDNDND said:
CSLmarson said:
NDNDNDND said:
The skill? The challenge perhaps? The fun? Because it's more rewarding?
I can't help but think these 'flappy-paddle evangelists' aren't real petrolheads...
Go and play with your Xbox.
you my friend are an idiot, I can't help but think these 'flappy-paddle evangelists' aren't real petrolheads...
Go and play with your Xbox.
go play in your nova.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66aFd7dyqso
i tell you what ill see your MX5 and raise you a CSL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRqbWmsdviM
Big E 118 said:
Is there anyone on here (or Chris Harris if you're reading) that can give an objective summary explaining the differences in feel between an E46 M3/1M/E92 M3 from experience, I'd be interested to hear.
Having owned an E46 M3 CS and a couple of E92 M3's (driven a few CSL's as well) I'd like to hear how the 1M compares.
Perhaps Drive TV would like to entertain the idea of filming a comparison test and bring all these cars together. The idea would not be to say which car is the best but to summarise why each of these cars deserves the M badge!Having owned an E46 M3 CS and a couple of E92 M3's (driven a few CSL's as well) I'd like to hear how the 1M compares.
What do you say CH?
enduroboy said:
em177 said:
Will be track tyres on the wheels shown I'd imagine.
???? csl comes as standard with pilot sport cup tyresGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff