RE: BMW 130i: PH Carpool
Discussion
scherzkeks said:
Driving a vehicle's beyond its limits is inefficient and slow. If it's happening unintentionally, then the driver should work on improving his technique. If a car is under or oversteering then the driver has overstepped the limits.
And I don't find it odd to talk about having fun. No, I would not enjoy going around a track on rails -- because that would ask nothing of the driver. Sliding around has its place, but I get more pleasure from honing my lines and taking (as best I can) my car up to its limits in a controlled way, which is pretty much the only way to drive fast, and is critical for racing.
I'm not sure you fully understand what I'm saying. I'm not talking about big lairy power slides, just that when the car is on the limit you will be needing to make numerous minor corrections through the corner. If you can find a graph of steering angle through a corner for, say, an F1 car, you will see lots of rapid changes rather than just a smooth arc as the driver holds the car just at the limit of grip, having to adjust the steering as the car tries to under and oversteer. If you can make it round the corner without doing that then by definition you could have been pushing harder.And I don't find it odd to talk about having fun. No, I would not enjoy going around a track on rails -- because that would ask nothing of the driver. Sliding around has its place, but I get more pleasure from honing my lines and taking (as best I can) my car up to its limits in a controlled way, which is pretty much the only way to drive fast, and is critical for racing.
Anyway it's a moot point as I don't think you will find support from many unbiased sources for the idea that an understeery 4wd car is more entertaining for a keen driver than a neutral or oversteery RWD.
Last month at SPA, at both Malmedy and particularly at the tighter Bruxelles corner, F1s would be slightly sideways practically every lap in the dry. Some would just only release the brakes when the rear end started to lose lat grip, some would exit keeping the understeer on (Alonso in particular). That was in the race btw, in tyre conservation mode. The day before it was even more visible in quali. Bsically they were all slightly beyond the limit (the limit of adhesion btw, not their limits). You simply can't see on the TV but it's pretty obvious when you're there, at times less than 6/7 meters from the apex.
It was even more obvious in GP2 and GP3 quali sessions.
The only way to know where the limit is to very slightly breach it and allow a slight slip angle, because it changes lap after lap as the track rubbers in and/or the wind turns and/or the temperature changes. If you never do that, you'll be left behind, far behind.
Allowing a slight slip angle is far more difficult in a 4wd road car btw than a RWD road car btw.
It was even more obvious in GP2 and GP3 quali sessions.
The only way to know where the limit is to very slightly breach it and allow a slight slip angle, because it changes lap after lap as the track rubbers in and/or the wind turns and/or the temperature changes. If you never do that, you'll be left behind, far behind.
Allowing a slight slip angle is far more difficult in a 4wd road car btw than a RWD road car btw.
Edited by nickfrog on Wednesday 25th September 15:50
T0MMY said:
I'm not sure you fully understand what I'm saying. I'm not talking about big lairy power slides, just that when the car is on the limit you will be needing to make numerous minor corrections through the corner. If you can find a graph of steering angle through a corner for, say, an F1 car, you will see lots of rapid changes rather than just a smooth arc as the driver holds the car just at the limit of grip, having to adjust the steering as the car tries to under and oversteer. If you can make it round the corner without doing that then by definition you could have been pushing harder.
Anyway it's a moot point as I don't think you will find support from many unbiased sources for the idea that an understeery 4wd car is more entertaining for a keen driver than a neutral or oversteery RWD.
Again, I did not suggest that driving a car prone to understeer was "more fun" at the tractive limit than one prone to be neutral or oversteery from a dynamic standpoint. I simply said that an R32 or S3 were better performers than the 130i, and that AWD offers a performance advantage. This was a response to comical statements that the 130i had "no competition" and that AWD was "undesireable" for track use. Nonsense claims, of course, and only here could such claims be given a pass. If you are interested in sliding around, most AWD systems will put a damper on that, but if you are interested in higher tractive limits and cornering speeds, AWD is your ticket.Anyway it's a moot point as I don't think you will find support from many unbiased sources for the idea that an understeery 4wd car is more entertaining for a keen driver than a neutral or oversteery RWD.
scherzkeks said:
Again, I did not suggest that driving a car prone to understeer was "more fun" at the tractive limit than one prone to be neutral or oversteery from a dynamic standpoint. I simply said that an R32 or S3 were better performers than the 130i, and that AWD offers a performance advantage. This was a response to comical statements that the 130i had "no competition" and that AWD was "undesireable" for track use. Nonsense claims, of course, and only here could such claims be given a pass. If you are interested in sliding around, most AWD systems will put a damper on that, but if you are interested in higher tractive limits and cornering speeds, AWD is your ticket.
Oh go on then, I'll bite.This thread is about the 130i, and this one has seen significant time on tracks, prolly more than you have in the 'better' car. It has also (and this is the sodding point) been modified using the most brilliant B1 setup developed by people who know what they are doing. Add to this lighter wheels, etc, etc and it is a pretty decent weapon and one which would demolish a stock R32/S3. Claiming AWD is the choice for trackday times and ultimate grip is at best 'clutching'. At this price and RWD only there is very little competition, even less when they are kitted like this one. It's obvious you like your VAG's but what you are saying is simply not true.
scherzkeks said:
Again, I did not suggest that driving a car prone to understeer was "more fun" at the tractive limit than one prone to be neutral or oversteery from a dynamic standpoint. I simply said that an R32 or S3 were better performers than the 130i, and that AWD offers a performance advantage. This was a response to comical statements that the 130i had "no competition" and that AWD was "undesireable" for track use. Nonsense claims, of course, and only here could such claims be given a pass. If you are interested in sliding around, most AWD systems will put a damper on that, but if you are interested in higher tractive limits and cornering speeds, AWD is your ticket.
AWD will certainly help with getting power down out of corners but I'm not sure how it would give you a higher mid corner speed and without a strong rear bias (which I don't think an S3 has?) you presumably can't use the power to increase the slip angle at the rear to help rotate the car. Anyway we're talking at cross purposes because I'm talking about driver involvement and you're talking about trying to go faster than the next guy. This I think is an actual fundamental difference between two types of petrol heads and is why one type's dream car is a Caterham and the other type's is a Veyron. The former type probably never buy Audis and the latter type would never buy a GT86 or indeed an MX5. scherzkeks said:
Again, I did not suggest that driving a car prone to understeer was "more fun" at the tractive limit than one prone to be neutral or oversteery from a dynamic standpoint. I simply said that an R32 or S3 were better performers than the 130i, and that AWD offers a performance advantage. This was a response to comical statements that the 130i had "no competition" and that AWD was "undesireable" for track use. Nonsense claims, of course, and only here could such claims be given a pass. If you are interested in sliding around, most AWD systems will put a damper on that, but if you are interested in higher tractive limits and cornering speeds, AWD is your ticket.
You are confusing longitudinal acceleration and lateral acceleration. You need to familiarise yourself with the traction circle.The S3 understeers so much (both 8L and 8P at least, not driven the latest shape), its traction benefits are totally wasted against a more balanced/neutral car (like the 130i). Coming out of a corner more easily/cleanly (point and squirt like) is of zero benefit if your apex speed is lower in the first place and I can categorically say that the S3's apex speed is lower, what with it's front weight bias, higher polar moment of inertia, higher mass and therefore added weight transfer leading to additional centripedal forces exerted on the tyres when turning in. I am sure that you know that lateral grip is inversely proportional to weight (unlike traction which indeed benefits from a higher mass but by the time the longitudinally tractive advantage of the S3 comes to the rescue, the damage is already done). I could also explain how uselessly slow the Haldex is to react, however much Audi claim they have improved it at each launch. I could also explain why a performance car driver might prefer an uncorrupted front end for both fun AND efficiency reasons on track.
The S3 remains an excellent road car btw but I can't think of a dafter choice for track use if you want both speed and fun and don't want to eat your front tyres.
nickfrog said:
You are confusing longitudinal acceleration and lateral acceleration. You need to familiarise yourself with the traction circle.
The S3 understeers so much (both 8L and 8P at least, not driven the latest shape), its traction benefits are totally wasted against a more balanced/neutral car (like the 130i). Coming out of a corner more easily/cleanly (point and squirt like) is of zero benefit if your apex speed is lower in the first place and I can categorically say that the S3's apex speed is lower, what with it's front weight bias, higher polar moment of inertia, higher mass and therefore added weight transfer leading to additional centripedal forces exerted on the tyres when turning in. I am sure that you know that lateral grip is inversely proportional to weight (unlike traction which indeed benefits from a higher mass but by the time the longitudinally tractive advantage of the S3 comes to the rescue, the damage is already done). I could also explain how uselessly slow the Haldex is to react, however much Audi claim they have improved it at each launch. I could also explain why a performance car driver might prefer an uncorrupted front end for both fun AND efficiency reasons on track.
The S3 remains an excellent road car btw but I can't think of a dafter choice for track use if you want both speed and fun and don't want to eat your front tyres.
Your comments on the understeer are so off base it isn't even worth replying. I have had a fair amount of track time in an 8P with an excellent instructor. To get heavy understeer on that car you have to be really manhandling it and being impatient with getting on the power too soon. The 8P is an easy car to drive fast and was praised by a number of mags for being quite a polished handler. The S3 understeers so much (both 8L and 8P at least, not driven the latest shape), its traction benefits are totally wasted against a more balanced/neutral car (like the 130i). Coming out of a corner more easily/cleanly (point and squirt like) is of zero benefit if your apex speed is lower in the first place and I can categorically say that the S3's apex speed is lower, what with it's front weight bias, higher polar moment of inertia, higher mass and therefore added weight transfer leading to additional centripedal forces exerted on the tyres when turning in. I am sure that you know that lateral grip is inversely proportional to weight (unlike traction which indeed benefits from a higher mass but by the time the longitudinally tractive advantage of the S3 comes to the rescue, the damage is already done). I could also explain how uselessly slow the Haldex is to react, however much Audi claim they have improved it at each launch. I could also explain why a performance car driver might prefer an uncorrupted front end for both fun AND efficiency reasons on track.
The S3 remains an excellent road car btw but I can't think of a dafter choice for track use if you want both speed and fun and don't want to eat your front tyres.
I have mentioned this before, but your misstatements on Haldex reaction times are quite comical, especially where the Gen 4 is concerned. I"d bet money that you had an uprated rear sway bar on your old S3 too (I think I remember you saying you had one) which is a big no-no on ANY Konzern Haldex chassis.
scherzkeks said:
Your comments on the understeer are so off base it isn't even worth replying. I have had a fair amount of track time in an 8P with an excellent instructor. To get heavy understeer on that car you have to be really manhandling it and being impatient with getting on the power too soon. The 8P is an easy car to drive fast and was praised by a number of mags for being quite a polished handler.
I think the point people are making is not that an S3 has a chronic lack of grip and will understeer immediately, more that when you approach the limits of grip, it will understeer rather than oversteer.The fact that you can drive it without it understeering is hardly the point...I could drive a bus without it understeering as long as I don't push it too hard. It's how a car handles on the limit that makes it interesting.
scherzkeks said:
Your comments on the understeer are so off base it isn't even worth replying. I have had a fair amount of track time in an 8P with an excellent instructor. To get heavy understeer on that car you have to be really manhandling it and being impatient with getting on the power too soon. The 8P is an easy car to drive fast and was praised by a number of mags for being quite a polished handler.
I have mentioned this before, but your misstatements on Haldex reaction times are quite comical, especially where the Gen 4 is concerned. I"d bet money that you had an uprated rear sway bar on your old S3 too (I think I remember you saying you had one) which is a big no-no on ANY Konzern Haldex chassis.
Not a clue what you're on about about sway bars, I guess you mean ARBs, well it wasn't me. Frankly, it could have been as nothing is likely to make an Haldex equipped car any worse on track. Remember the chassis itself is merely a Golf's. If it doesn't understeer then what happens when you lose lat grip ? Do you take off ? Vanish ? 4-wheel drift ? Oversteeer ? I think it was wise of your instructor not to let you find out. Oh, and on the understeer, why would even a RS3 understeer so much and a more humble S3 not understeer ( http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... 11.20). It required a lift when even the 2wd M135i could go flat (there you go, M135i has more grip...). Soon you'll be telling me that Audi don't over-servo their brake pedal !I have mentioned this before, but your misstatements on Haldex reaction times are quite comical, especially where the Gen 4 is concerned. I"d bet money that you had an uprated rear sway bar on your old S3 too (I think I remember you saying you had one) which is a big no-no on ANY Konzern Haldex chassis.
I think what you call "drive fast" betrays your first forays into track driving and by comparison to road pace it will indeed feel fast. But there's still a big margin until you safely get to 10/10ths. You've got to start somewhere though. But when you're there you might see things differently and have gained the confidence to enjoy the finest things in life, including a proper chassis, that you can control with your right foot rather than rely on a Swedish truck parts manufacturer's cheap excuse for a diff set up.
Wow...that Chris Harris video sums it up pretty well. Every Audi I've ever driven has had a nice safe understeer set up but I've never driven an RS model and I'm surprised to see how bad they are. What are Audi thinking? They seem totally unwilling to trust their owners to be able to control a car properly.
Scherzkeks...I can see you like your car and you're pretty defensive about it but I think you need to accept that when just about everyone but you says it has a dull understeery chassis you may need to consider the fact that they're right and just appreciate the car for what it is.
Scherzkeks...I can see you like your car and you're pretty defensive about it but I think you need to accept that when just about everyone but you says it has a dull understeery chassis you may need to consider the fact that they're right and just appreciate the car for what it is.
Edited by T0MMY on Wednesday 25th September 23:40
nickfrog said:
Not a clue what you're on about about sway bars, I guess you mean ARBs, well it wasn't me. Frankly, it could have been as nothing is likely to make an Haldex equipped car any worse on track. Remember the chassis itself is merely a Golf's. If it doesn't understeer then what happens when you lose lat grip ? Do you take off ? Vanish ? 4-wheel drift ? Oversteeer ? I think it was wise of your instructor not to let you find out. Oh, and on the understeer, why would even a RS3 understeer so much and a more humble S3 not understeer ( http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... 11.20). It required a lift when even the 2wd M135i could go flat (there you go, M135i has more grip...). Soon you'll be telling me that Audi don't over-servo their brake pedal !
I think what you call "drive fast" betrays your first forays into track driving and by comparison to road pace it will indeed feel fast. But there's still a big margin until you safely get to 10/10ths. You've got to start somewhere though. But when you're there you might see things differently and have gained the confidence to enjoy the finest things in life, including a proper chassis, that you can control with your right foot rather than rely on a Swedish truck parts manufacturer's cheap excuse for a diff set up.
Heh. Your nonsense got me thinking about this old Tiff video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0rKuHe_VHM) on the nose-heavy R32 vs the 130, never mind the considerably more agile S3. Pay particular attention to his comments on understeer in that car. I think what you call "drive fast" betrays your first forays into track driving and by comparison to road pace it will indeed feel fast. But there's still a big margin until you safely get to 10/10ths. You've got to start somewhere though. But when you're there you might see things differently and have gained the confidence to enjoy the finest things in life, including a proper chassis, that you can control with your right foot rather than rely on a Swedish truck parts manufacturer's cheap excuse for a diff set up.
As for the rest, you have yet to post a single factual thing about the cars in question, and your comments on driving Konzern Haldex chassis tell me you had no clue what you were doing with them. The TTRS and RS3 both are heavier up front than the S3 and TTS. There is a reason most manufacturers put 4-pots on smaller chassis, but even this basic understanding of what's going on dynamically seems to elude you.
T0MMY said:
Wow...that Chris Harris video sums it up pretty well. Every Audi I've ever driven has had a nice safe understeer set up but I've never driven an RS model and I'm surprised to see how bad they are. What are Audi thinking? They seem totally unwilling to trust their owners to be able to control a car properly.
Scherzkeks...I can see you like your car and you're pretty defensive about it but I think you need to accept that when just about everyone but you says it has a dull understeery chassis you may need to consider the fact that they're right and just appreciate the car for what it is.
I don't own the cars in question. I currently have an S4, but I don't see why that should matter.Scherzkeks...I can see you like your car and you're pretty defensive about it but I think you need to accept that when just about everyone but you says it has a dull understeery chassis you may need to consider the fact that they're right and just appreciate the car for what it is.
Edited by T0MMY on Wednesday 25th September 23:40
I and many others do not find the 8P chassis to be dull and understeery. And that Chris Harris video speaks for itself. The state of the RS3s tires make it very clear that he was hamfisting the thing on the track; but coincidentally enough, it was still faster.
This guy has got to be trolling - no one could be this blinkered surely...
It was me that said I had an S3 for the record though, no fun wringing out that whiny four pot, just sounded strained at the top end. Of course you can drive it just under it's limits and make very rapid progress but that became very dull too, push a bit more and yep you'll be getting understeer and front tyre scrub - one for the traffic light heros. Just doesn't compare to the deep thrum of the BMW straight six and RWD adjustability.
Nothings gonna tell him though, he knows best!
It was me that said I had an S3 for the record though, no fun wringing out that whiny four pot, just sounded strained at the top end. Of course you can drive it just under it's limits and make very rapid progress but that became very dull too, push a bit more and yep you'll be getting understeer and front tyre scrub - one for the traffic light heros. Just doesn't compare to the deep thrum of the BMW straight six and RWD adjustability.
Nothings gonna tell him though, he knows best!
The thing is though the OP has built a car very fit for purpose and here we are discussing Audi's!
In just about every test people have criticised the understeer, apparently every one of them is wrong and none of us know how to drive to this particular cars advantage. It's BS.
It's difficult to build a case against the 130 especially when fitted with an LSD.
In just about every test people have criticised the understeer, apparently every one of them is wrong and none of us know how to drive to this particular cars advantage. It's BS.
It's difficult to build a case against the 130 especially when fitted with an LSD.
scherzkeks said:
you had no clue what you were doing with them.
Well you've had instruction, so maybe you're a far better track driver than me ? If I am honest, even my LFB is a bit rusty, it's been a long time since I raced carts or drove single-seaters. When are you next at the Ring ? I'll be there on 27 October (TF), would you like to give me a few tips then, maybe I could get a ride in your S4 and learn a few things watching you drive ? I am serious btw, I am humble enough to know my limits and I am always happy to learn. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff