RE: Vettel: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
I guess it’s the apparent ease with which he wins almost every race – there’s just no satisfaction for the viewer. If there were some sort of trial over adversity to get the win I might feel more for him but it’s largely “Oh FFS here we go again…”
The finger is annoying and the “Yes boys etc” radio but I’m surprised anyone can think he is anything less than an excellent driver. Is he the best? I’m sure we’d all love to see what happened if say, Hamilton and Vettel swapped teams for a season to answer the “it’s all about the car” theories once and for all.
And yet I think it is nowhere near as simple as that. I can’t help feeling that after initially losing he would turn it around and start winning. And I think he would turn it around because of his dedication and sheer determination combined with the hours he puts in at the track and with the team. Red Bull may be a one driver team but that’s because he’s seized the opportunity to make it so - the car is his and his alone. Are we really blaming him for that? I suspect – unfounded of course – that Hamilton may have a more “that’s up to the team/engineers to sort” attitude. I think Seb may just be the most complete F1 competitor in terms of not only driving but participation in team/car development and pushing for improvement. It’s not an accident that the RB is the quickest car – yes it’s Newey design but I can’t help feeling it’s also what Seb brings to the party when he puts the hours in outside of race weekend as he undoutbedly does. It's a sum of parts. But it's easy to forget about that when you watch a race and it just becomes a boring “easy” win (how can it ever be that easy?!).
I also think he’s shown quite a sharp sense of humour on occasion outside the F1 arena so like many I can’t say I’m keen on his professional track persona BUT, as someone said a few pages back, I bet he’s a real laugh outside of the day job
The finger is annoying and the “Yes boys etc” radio but I’m surprised anyone can think he is anything less than an excellent driver. Is he the best? I’m sure we’d all love to see what happened if say, Hamilton and Vettel swapped teams for a season to answer the “it’s all about the car” theories once and for all.
And yet I think it is nowhere near as simple as that. I can’t help feeling that after initially losing he would turn it around and start winning. And I think he would turn it around because of his dedication and sheer determination combined with the hours he puts in at the track and with the team. Red Bull may be a one driver team but that’s because he’s seized the opportunity to make it so - the car is his and his alone. Are we really blaming him for that? I suspect – unfounded of course – that Hamilton may have a more “that’s up to the team/engineers to sort” attitude. I think Seb may just be the most complete F1 competitor in terms of not only driving but participation in team/car development and pushing for improvement. It’s not an accident that the RB is the quickest car – yes it’s Newey design but I can’t help feeling it’s also what Seb brings to the party when he puts the hours in outside of race weekend as he undoutbedly does. It's a sum of parts. But it's easy to forget about that when you watch a race and it just becomes a boring “easy” win (how can it ever be that easy?!).
I also think he’s shown quite a sharp sense of humour on occasion outside the F1 arena so like many I can’t say I’m keen on his professional track persona BUT, as someone said a few pages back, I bet he’s a real laugh outside of the day job
See what happens next year when Mark isn't his set up driver. that is why Marko has kept Webber around for. His feedback has been invaluable to RBR and they will suffer next year.
An an Aussie I automatically hate Vettel purely because he is a better driver than Aussie Mark. He also comes across as a massive F$%kwit. Have you seen his hair? what a toss pot.
I'm sure he has little to no friends.
An an Aussie I automatically hate Vettel purely because he is a better driver than Aussie Mark. He also comes across as a massive F$%kwit. Have you seen his hair? what a toss pot.
I'm sure he has little to no friends.
Grimezy93 said:
His anguished screams on the radio during the last race of "Keep him away from me!" even though Webber was about 10 seconds behind with Grosjean inbetween them shows why Vettel doesn't deserve to be 4-time champion. If Webber had got it right with the 3 stop strategy then why shouldn't he overtake?
When things aren't going his way you see just how much of a baby he is. I could understand if Webber was all over his rear wing putting both their cars in danger but he was nowhere near him.
Put Vettel in a Ferrari or Mercedes and watch the success drift away.
This x 1000When things aren't going his way you see just how much of a baby he is. I could understand if Webber was all over his rear wing putting both their cars in danger but he was nowhere near him.
Put Vettel in a Ferrari or Mercedes and watch the success drift away.
My problem with him is that he epitomises all the problems in F1 right now. Vettel is clearly a skilled driver (what F1 driver isn't?) and has a good grip on his team, but is he in the same as Button/Alonso/Hamilton/Raikkonen etc? I don't think so, for me it's the car that's winning the races.
As I say, clearly a skilled driver, but lets see how he deals with (what I presume will be) the shaking up of the natural order next year.
This
V8s ONLY said:
It's the finger,it comes across all wrong.Not arrogance as such,most top sports people are arrogant with huge self belief, but just plain wrong.Someone close to him needs to tell him to stop waving the finger.
And thisRSoovy4 said:
He's the Ed Milliband of racing.
He buttf cked his team mate on Multi 21.
That's the hallmark of a real tosspot. As is accusing other teams of "hanging their balls in the pool on Fridays".
Arrogant little tit.
I want to like him, but he acts like a dickHe buttf cked his team mate on Multi 21.
That's the hallmark of a real tosspot. As is accusing other teams of "hanging their balls in the pool on Fridays".
Arrogant little tit.
Didn't have time to read through the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating anyone, but here's my 2p anyway.
1. F1 is and always has been a car formula.
It's developed over the years into THE world championship that all the best drivers aspire to be in and rightly so all the money's there.
I reckon most of the field in the same car would be covered by a tenth or so, and yet Seb's Red Bull has been up to 2 seconds quicker at some points for whatever reason - it's not the driver - he's good but he's not a god.
2. Red Bull are a drinks company - their raison d'etre is to sell drinks, not race cars - they have no F1 historically built culture/values to live up to - they just want to win at any cost. Teams like McLaren, Williams (not Ferrari strangely) actually pride themselves on letting their drivers race because they have a sense of duty to the sport - they are racers first and business people second, or at least that's how their culture has developed.
I don't imagine for a moment that there's any parity at RBR - it's virtually a one car team, they only need one fast car to wrap up both championships whilst spending the least amount of money.
Isn't Webber taking Red Bull sponsorship to Porsche so he's not going to spill any beans soon. He always has the demeanor of someone who's getting shafted regularly - surely that's because he probably is, but getting rewarded very handsomely.
I think all we can say for sure is that all will not be as it seems.
1. F1 is and always has been a car formula.
It's developed over the years into THE world championship that all the best drivers aspire to be in and rightly so all the money's there.
I reckon most of the field in the same car would be covered by a tenth or so, and yet Seb's Red Bull has been up to 2 seconds quicker at some points for whatever reason - it's not the driver - he's good but he's not a god.
2. Red Bull are a drinks company - their raison d'etre is to sell drinks, not race cars - they have no F1 historically built culture/values to live up to - they just want to win at any cost. Teams like McLaren, Williams (not Ferrari strangely) actually pride themselves on letting their drivers race because they have a sense of duty to the sport - they are racers first and business people second, or at least that's how their culture has developed.
I don't imagine for a moment that there's any parity at RBR - it's virtually a one car team, they only need one fast car to wrap up both championships whilst spending the least amount of money.
Isn't Webber taking Red Bull sponsorship to Porsche so he's not going to spill any beans soon. He always has the demeanor of someone who's getting shafted regularly - surely that's because he probably is, but getting rewarded very handsomely.
I think all we can say for sure is that all will not be as it seems.
"win with grace lose with dignity"
1) Don't jab your index finger infront of millions of people's faces with a smug look on your face.
2) Don't shout "yes yes yes boys" after every single win
3) Don't screw your team mate over; the team employ you and put you in that privileged position - not the other way around (no matter how good you are)
He's the kind of guy whereby you'd call him your mate...but at times he stabs you in the back for his own gain. The first couple of times you kind of let it go, but if he keeps doing it would you really call him your mate?
1) Don't jab your index finger infront of millions of people's faces with a smug look on your face.
2) Don't shout "yes yes yes boys" after every single win
3) Don't screw your team mate over; the team employ you and put you in that privileged position - not the other way around (no matter how good you are)
He's the kind of guy whereby you'd call him your mate...but at times he stabs you in the back for his own gain. The first couple of times you kind of let it go, but if he keeps doing it would you really call him your mate?
Foggy748 said:
I disagree. If the series consisted of all the top drivers it would be good close racing.
I think it would be an interesting sideshow, but not a series. The pre-season excitement of impending car unveilings and initial testing etc make F1 interesting. Make all the cars the same it would be boring.I don't really know enough about Vettel to comment - he keeps pretty low key, and seems fairly contrite in interviews. He only seems to lose it when actually racing which, I think, is understandable - winning is, afterall, what he's paid to do.
Compared to a driver like Hamilton, with all of his PR people, and branding, Vettel seems a bit one-dimensional. Deliberate, I suspect, on Vettel and Red Bull's part.
Compared to a driver like Hamilton, with all of his PR people, and branding, Vettel seems a bit one-dimensional. Deliberate, I suspect, on Vettel and Red Bull's part.
Grimezy93 said:
His anguished screams on the radio during the last race of "Keep him away from me!"
Agreed - and although I agree Hamilton can be petulant and irritating on team radio too, compare and contrast with his "Anyone got any suggestions?" message when he couldn't get past Hulkenberg in Korea If anything, Hamilton's getting better (and Vettel's getting worse).
I'm not sure why his Top Gear interview is lauded as making him seem likeable outside the car, to me it just seemed like he was really really trying hard to make the British people like him.
"I'll tell zem zat I like ze Fawlty Towers and Ze Monty Python, zey will be eatink out of my hant!"
No, I don't buy it. He's a petulant teenager. A petulant teenager with some talent and working for a good team with a good car, but a petulant teenager nonetheless.
Hamilton has a little bit of that too. In fact, Button did when he first started out but years in the doldrums forced him to grow up. He's actually more interesting than Vettel and Hamilton put together.
"I'll tell zem zat I like ze Fawlty Towers and Ze Monty Python, zey will be eatink out of my hant!"
No, I don't buy it. He's a petulant teenager. A petulant teenager with some talent and working for a good team with a good car, but a petulant teenager nonetheless.
Hamilton has a little bit of that too. In fact, Button did when he first started out but years in the doldrums forced him to grow up. He's actually more interesting than Vettel and Hamilton put together.
Anubis said:
"win with grace lose with dignity"
1) Don't jab your index finger infront of millions of people's faces with a smug look on your face.
2) Don't shout "yes yes yes boys" after every single win
3) Don't screw your team mate over; the team employ you and put you in that privileged position - not the other way around (no matter how good you are)
He's the kind of guy whereby you'd call him your mate...but at times he stabs you in the back for his own gain. The first couple of times you kind of let it go, but if he keeps doing it would you really call him your mate?
Absolutely bang on - couldn't have put it any better!1) Don't jab your index finger infront of millions of people's faces with a smug look on your face.
2) Don't shout "yes yes yes boys" after every single win
3) Don't screw your team mate over; the team employ you and put you in that privileged position - not the other way around (no matter how good you are)
He's the kind of guy whereby you'd call him your mate...but at times he stabs you in the back for his own gain. The first couple of times you kind of let it go, but if he keeps doing it would you really call him your mate?
dgmx5 said:
VladD said:
Youjutsusha said:
There is the other thing of seeing him screw over his team mate Aussie Mark Webber over and over...
Apart from Multi 21, when has Seb personally screwed Webber as opposed to Red Bull doing it (i.e. the front wing change at Silverstone)?Is this the same as the Loeb effect? He's only really won in one car and to be a truely great champion he must win for multiple teams.
Win in a different car and maybe we'll respect your talent without question.
I think also the ease of winning is an issue for most. Redbull deliberately set up the car to lead from the front, run in clean air, high corner speeds, low overal top speed, not much faster with DRS. So the hard work is done on Saturday and then in to the first corner. We dont see any starting from the back and fighting through the field (i remember one race last year). Some claim he cant overtake (but we have seen he can), but he doesnt have to. Its a dull win, calculated and calm.
Come across the line backwards with your hair on fire and all tyres flat and worn to the canvas ala G. Villeneuve and you'll win the fans.
Harris is right, the drivers and races you remember are the ones where something amazing happened.
Gilles Villeneuve vs Rene Arnoux (they finished 2nd and 3rd)
Senna at Monaco in a Toleman (came 2nd)
even the modern guys have their own special races
Hill in Hungary (2nd in an Arrows)
Raikonnen at the Nurburgring (His wheel exploded and he crashed DNF, awesome drive)
Button in Canada (Practically over took the whole field twice in the longest race ever, he won which kinda ruins my point)
Kobayashi in any race ever
Dont just win, do it in an awesome way.
Time to swap teams and give yourself a challenge, like Alonso in his Ferrari.
Win in a different car and maybe we'll respect your talent without question.
I think also the ease of winning is an issue for most. Redbull deliberately set up the car to lead from the front, run in clean air, high corner speeds, low overal top speed, not much faster with DRS. So the hard work is done on Saturday and then in to the first corner. We dont see any starting from the back and fighting through the field (i remember one race last year). Some claim he cant overtake (but we have seen he can), but he doesnt have to. Its a dull win, calculated and calm.
Come across the line backwards with your hair on fire and all tyres flat and worn to the canvas ala G. Villeneuve and you'll win the fans.
Harris is right, the drivers and races you remember are the ones where something amazing happened.
Gilles Villeneuve vs Rene Arnoux (they finished 2nd and 3rd)
Senna at Monaco in a Toleman (came 2nd)
even the modern guys have their own special races
Hill in Hungary (2nd in an Arrows)
Raikonnen at the Nurburgring (His wheel exploded and he crashed DNF, awesome drive)
Button in Canada (Practically over took the whole field twice in the longest race ever, he won which kinda ruins my point)
Kobayashi in any race ever
Dont just win, do it in an awesome way.
Time to swap teams and give yourself a challenge, like Alonso in his Ferrari.
Vettel has done his job, and done it well.
why is he not more celebrated??
1)He has a team built around him
2)He's clearly favoured by Christian Horner and Helmut Marko
3)He's had the best car for 4 yrs in a row (massively dominant in 2011 and 2013)
4)rarely has as much bad luck as his team mate
5)perfect pit stops, generally good strategy calls
6)never seems to finish lower than 4th
7)not got a strong enough team mate
8)Ultra clean run for 4 yrs, without any big problems / scandals, statistically improbable he could have such good luck
He's had it too good, and its all come a bit too easily. Other champions (schumacher not included) have had to fight harder for their championships in recent years. He's made it all look a bit boring and easy.
Until the playing field is more equal, we won't know how good he really is. The fact the media keep saying its really interesting and an amazing season for 4 yrs in a row just compounds the bias and boringness. just say it like it is BBC / Sky F1!
why is he not more celebrated??
1)He has a team built around him
2)He's clearly favoured by Christian Horner and Helmut Marko
3)He's had the best car for 4 yrs in a row (massively dominant in 2011 and 2013)
4)rarely has as much bad luck as his team mate
5)perfect pit stops, generally good strategy calls
6)never seems to finish lower than 4th
7)not got a strong enough team mate
8)Ultra clean run for 4 yrs, without any big problems / scandals, statistically improbable he could have such good luck
He's had it too good, and its all come a bit too easily. Other champions (schumacher not included) have had to fight harder for their championships in recent years. He's made it all look a bit boring and easy.
Until the playing field is more equal, we won't know how good he really is. The fact the media keep saying its really interesting and an amazing season for 4 yrs in a row just compounds the bias and boringness. just say it like it is BBC / Sky F1!
I don't think it's primarily Vettel winning that's causing the boos. It didn't for Button in the Brawn.
Most people have a sense of what's fair or unfair, and if you win by what people consider unfair means, you won't be popular or liked. For "Winners" , and Vettel and Schumacher certainly are "Winners", winning is everything (including in Schumacher and Senna's cases by foul means if necessary), but that's not true for most people. Both Schumacher and Senna are diminished in some people's eyes because they deliberately crashed rivals off the road and then denied it, or in Senna's case got Ron Dennis to deny it.
Vettel is perceived as getting favoured treatment and being allowed to do things to his teammate that would not be tolerated by Marko if positions were reversed. And in the process he's perceived as shafting a very popular and approachable teammate. And the fact that Vettel always gets the smooth and Webber the rough from team decisions doesn't help that perception.
Inside the world of F1, Vettel and Marko's treatment of Webber may be acceptable, but the view outside the F1 bubble is different. If Vettel wants to be liked outside the bubble, he has to conform to standards outside the bubble. It's the people outside the bubble who pay his wages ultimately, and if they don't want to swallow the Red Bull PR bulls
t that's their right. It's not for the F1 in-crowd to tell the public/customer it's they who have it wrong.
Vettel's gained certain advantages from his behaviour. There's also a downside for him in the public not liking it. He can't expect to have it both ways. About time he stopped whingeing.
I only saw Gilles Villeneuve drive once, at a British Grand Prix, the year Andretti won the title and the year before the sad death of Gunnar Nilsson. Maclaren had built a big brute of a car to maximise the ground effect characteristic, and got it so spectacularly wrong they scrapped it and built a completely new car ASAP for the rest of the season. They gave Villeneuve one of the dogs to drive as a third works entry. He was clearly driving it way beyond its natural speed. I was, I think, at Club, where he lost it and did a 720. As it straightened up still doing I would guess about 70+mph on the grass, he snicked it into the appropriate gear, floored the throttle and continued without ever stopping. At the end of the race, he got more applause from the crowd than the winner. We knew we'd seen someone special.
There was also another story I liked about him with Ferrari at Monaco, with a heart monitor wired up to him. He was just sitting in the car in the pits when the heart rate shot up way beyond normal levels. They spent a lot of time looking at coverage of him trying to work out this heart irregularity, and could see no reason for it. Then someone noticed his eyes twitch to one side as his heart rate increased. Then they had to work out what he'd seen. She turned out to be extremely attractive.
Most people have a sense of what's fair or unfair, and if you win by what people consider unfair means, you won't be popular or liked. For "Winners" , and Vettel and Schumacher certainly are "Winners", winning is everything (including in Schumacher and Senna's cases by foul means if necessary), but that's not true for most people. Both Schumacher and Senna are diminished in some people's eyes because they deliberately crashed rivals off the road and then denied it, or in Senna's case got Ron Dennis to deny it.
Vettel is perceived as getting favoured treatment and being allowed to do things to his teammate that would not be tolerated by Marko if positions were reversed. And in the process he's perceived as shafting a very popular and approachable teammate. And the fact that Vettel always gets the smooth and Webber the rough from team decisions doesn't help that perception.
Inside the world of F1, Vettel and Marko's treatment of Webber may be acceptable, but the view outside the F1 bubble is different. If Vettel wants to be liked outside the bubble, he has to conform to standards outside the bubble. It's the people outside the bubble who pay his wages ultimately, and if they don't want to swallow the Red Bull PR bulls
t that's their right. It's not for the F1 in-crowd to tell the public/customer it's they who have it wrong.Vettel's gained certain advantages from his behaviour. There's also a downside for him in the public not liking it. He can't expect to have it both ways. About time he stopped whingeing.
I only saw Gilles Villeneuve drive once, at a British Grand Prix, the year Andretti won the title and the year before the sad death of Gunnar Nilsson. Maclaren had built a big brute of a car to maximise the ground effect characteristic, and got it so spectacularly wrong they scrapped it and built a completely new car ASAP for the rest of the season. They gave Villeneuve one of the dogs to drive as a third works entry. He was clearly driving it way beyond its natural speed. I was, I think, at Club, where he lost it and did a 720. As it straightened up still doing I would guess about 70+mph on the grass, he snicked it into the appropriate gear, floored the throttle and continued without ever stopping. At the end of the race, he got more applause from the crowd than the winner. We knew we'd seen someone special.
There was also another story I liked about him with Ferrari at Monaco, with a heart monitor wired up to him. He was just sitting in the car in the pits when the heart rate shot up way beyond normal levels. They spent a lot of time looking at coverage of him trying to work out this heart irregularity, and could see no reason for it. Then someone noticed his eyes twitch to one side as his heart rate increased. Then they had to work out what he'd seen. She turned out to be extremely attractive.
There was a time when 'motor' racing was all about the cars not the drivers.The fact that a driver can drive should be a given.What we've actually got now in most forms of racing is mostly 'driver' racing with a few small differences between cars depending on how different teams can work within the 'rules' which are all about making cars as closely matched as possible to further the situation.The fact is people didn't go to see Moss beat the other drivers in the Mille Miglia for example,just like in the case of Auto Union and Mercedes previously in Grand Prix racing and the different entrants at Le Mans over the years,they went to see Mercedes defeat it's opposition using a better car which is what people mostly ( rightly ) remember and which was ( should be ) the definition of 'motor' racing.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Thursday 17th October 14:07
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