RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Fantuzzi said:
But the main issue with the article is the Nurburgring hate, because the car he fails the mention in relation to his point was the amazingly involving r26.r!
The car that had journos foaming at the mouth at its fun factor as well as making every petrolhead wish their rear windows were plastic. It was awesome. Yet that is avoided to make his point, a point that is rather nostalgic, and just wrong with the mass of warm hatches on sale today.
That is a fair point. This is a car I often forget all about. I would prefer it smaller in the ideal world though.The car that had journos foaming at the mouth at its fun factor as well as making every petrolhead wish their rear windows were plastic. It was awesome. Yet that is avoided to make his point, a point that is rather nostalgic, and just wrong with the mass of warm hatches on sale today.
iloveboost said:
The hot hatches demise seems to be predicted every year!
I know the point is smaller, lighter, 'neutral' cars feel more exciting but you can still buy cars a bit like that, and you can make any car handle better.
I think the 'problem' for keen drivers isn't really the cars, it's the way they are setup.
For example the Abarth 500 is about the same weight and power as a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v! I also think it looks good, but the suspension and steering have been criticised.
Part of the reason for this is that safety is now a priority for the manufacturers. I think this is a good thing because as Top Gear shows an average driver isn't great in a panic situation or on the limit!
Manufacturers know a 'neutral' handling is more likely to spin, especially in the wet.
I'm sure they realise some enthusiasts want smaller, 'neutral' hot hatches but they also don't want legal problems or bad publicity. Even with modern stability control it's reactive and if a tyre slides off the road it's too late. It's also a bit tricky trying to market 'neutral' handling as being a good thing and something people want.
I think if you want a 'neutral' car seek advice from those who know what works and adjust the setup until it's right for you.
I think there is a great deal of truth in this - neutrality is less safe for people who (a) cannot drive, (b) are not paying attention and (c) are probably dropping a text or posting on Facetweet.I know the point is smaller, lighter, 'neutral' cars feel more exciting but you can still buy cars a bit like that, and you can make any car handle better.
I think the 'problem' for keen drivers isn't really the cars, it's the way they are setup.
For example the Abarth 500 is about the same weight and power as a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v! I also think it looks good, but the suspension and steering have been criticised.
Part of the reason for this is that safety is now a priority for the manufacturers. I think this is a good thing because as Top Gear shows an average driver isn't great in a panic situation or on the limit!
Manufacturers know a 'neutral' handling is more likely to spin, especially in the wet.
I'm sure they realise some enthusiasts want smaller, 'neutral' hot hatches but they also don't want legal problems or bad publicity. Even with modern stability control it's reactive and if a tyre slides off the road it's too late. It's also a bit tricky trying to market 'neutral' handling as being a good thing and something people want.
I think if you want a 'neutral' car seek advice from those who know what works and adjust the setup until it's right for you.
Anyone over about 30 has at some time driven far more neutral cars that were not remotely unsafe but would probably now kill the average 20 year old if they had more than 100bhp. It's hard to balance a car on throttle while posting a selfie.
Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.
Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
The Teg type R i’s effectively a hot hatch, it wa’s front wheel drive and competed again’st the 306 GTI-6/Rallye at launch. It i’s a coupe body with rear ‘seat’s ‘so it's a’s clo’se to a hatch a’s it'‘s po’s’sible to get.Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
The CTR wa’s decent enough but by no mean’s a hero - what do you want him to do, mention every hot hatch of the la’st 30 year’s, there have been a few.
The hot hatch prince i’s not the Fie’sta ‘ST. It never will be.
Your the rea’son that PH i’s wrong the’se day’s
The problem here is that no one will buy a brand new "old school hot hatch".
I drive a Twingo RS, there are ~1000 on the uk roads according to
http://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=...
And they discontinued the car, too right, if only say 1200 were bought brand new (they were around 12k I believe) then there is no logical reason for renault to keep making them, or indeed to spend R&D time on another!
This is all a huge shame though because it is amazing fun! I had a R56 Cooper S before this and yes you don't get the same outright speed, or the nice interior, build quality etc but I didn't have the same grin on my face going round a corner at 30...
I drive a Twingo RS, there are ~1000 on the uk roads according to
http://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=...
And they discontinued the car, too right, if only say 1200 were bought brand new (they were around 12k I believe) then there is no logical reason for renault to keep making them, or indeed to spend R&D time on another!
This is all a huge shame though because it is amazing fun! I had a R56 Cooper S before this and yes you don't get the same outright speed, or the nice interior, build quality etc but I didn't have the same grin on my face going round a corner at 30...
Twin2 said:
The problem here is that no one will buy a brand new "old school hot hatch".
I drive a Twingo RS, there are ~1000 on the uk roads according to
http://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=?&q=Renault...
And they discontinued the car, too right, if only say 1200 were bought brand new (they were around 12k I believe) then there is no logical reason for renault to keep making them, or indeed to spend R&D time on another!
This is all a huge shame though because it is amazing fun! I had a R56 Cooper S before this and yes you don't get the same outright speed, or the nice interior, build quality etc but I didn't have the same grin on my face going round a corner at 30...
The Twingo was a pretty poor effort, it was a Clio 182 chassis with less power and no rear space; £12,000 was a lot for not much car.I drive a Twingo RS, there are ~1000 on the uk roads according to
http://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=?&q=Renault...
And they discontinued the car, too right, if only say 1200 were bought brand new (they were around 12k I believe) then there is no logical reason for renault to keep making them, or indeed to spend R&D time on another!
This is all a huge shame though because it is amazing fun! I had a R56 Cooper S before this and yes you don't get the same outright speed, or the nice interior, build quality etc but I didn't have the same grin on my face going round a corner at 30...
Personally, I agree with the article. I once pushed a Megane R26 pretty close to the limit on a country road and it frankly scares me looking back at how quick it was. 3 figure speeds through off camber sweeping bends is, frankly, ludicrous.
I used to drive a 1.8 Corsa (2005). When I say used to I'm talking a few months ago, I'm only 20.
I'm glad I went for it, 135bhp with some breathing mods and only a flick over 1000 kg's. You could make progress and keep up with some bigger machinery, and you could also drive at 10/10th and not be doing silly speeds at the same time. I've always been into hot hatches, maybe I'll grow out of it?
I currently drive the same car, but with a 2.0T engine, I don't regret it at all, but the car is different, its more... lazy.
I'll be going back to n/a again I think with a EP3 Type R
I'm glad I went for it, 135bhp with some breathing mods and only a flick over 1000 kg's. You could make progress and keep up with some bigger machinery, and you could also drive at 10/10th and not be doing silly speeds at the same time. I've always been into hot hatches, maybe I'll grow out of it?
I currently drive the same car, but with a 2.0T engine, I don't regret it at all, but the car is different, its more... lazy.
I'll be going back to n/a again I think with a EP3 Type R
iloveboost said:
The hot hatches demise seems to be predicted every year!
I know the point is smaller, lighter, 'neutral' cars feel more exciting but you can still buy cars a bit like that, and you can make any car handle better.
I think the 'problem' for keen drivers isn't really the cars, it's the way they are setup.
For example the Abarth 500 is about the same weight and power as a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v! I also think it looks good, but the suspension and steering have been criticised.
Part of the reason for this is that safety is now a priority for the manufacturers. I think this is a good thing because as Top Gear shows an average driver isn't great in a panic situation or on the limit!
Manufacturers know a 'neutral' handling is more likely to spin, especially in the wet.
I'm sure they realise some enthusiasts want smaller, 'neutral' hot hatches but they also don't want legal problems or bad publicity. Even with modern stability control it's reactive and if a tyre slides off the road it's too late. It's also a bit tricky trying to market 'neutral' handling as being a good thing and something people want.
I think if you want a 'neutral' car seek advice from those who know what works and adjust the setup until it's right for you.
This is a good point.I know the point is smaller, lighter, 'neutral' cars feel more exciting but you can still buy cars a bit like that, and you can make any car handle better.
I think the 'problem' for keen drivers isn't really the cars, it's the way they are setup.
For example the Abarth 500 is about the same weight and power as a Mk2 Golf Gti 16v! I also think it looks good, but the suspension and steering have been criticised.
Part of the reason for this is that safety is now a priority for the manufacturers. I think this is a good thing because as Top Gear shows an average driver isn't great in a panic situation or on the limit!
Manufacturers know a 'neutral' handling is more likely to spin, especially in the wet.
I'm sure they realise some enthusiasts want smaller, 'neutral' hot hatches but they also don't want legal problems or bad publicity. Even with modern stability control it's reactive and if a tyre slides off the road it's too late. It's also a bit tricky trying to market 'neutral' handling as being a good thing and something people want.
I think if you want a 'neutral' car seek advice from those who know what works and adjust the setup until it's right for you.
Things like understeer or oversteer and lift-off oversteer don't make sense to the general public. If I was clueless I'd describe oversteer as a sudden loss of grip, crap tyres and the steer went 'funny'. Me and you both know she probably came of the accelerator and hammered the brakes whilst over-correcting the steering.
The hot hatch was born in the early 80"s .The golf Gti , 205 gti , XR3, R5 turbo , citroen AX GT ,
fiat uno turbo, Mg Maestro, XR2, Suzuki swift gti, In the 90"s sierra coswoth 4x4 ,Escort cosworth ,
nothing really grabs my attention now except the focus ST ,the new fiesta ST , I would like a focus RS 2009-2012 , but have got used to big comfy Audi"s and BMW"s , I think that's why prices of old fords have gone so high , men who are 40-60 now who don't want a hot hatch every day ,want one they either had in there youth or wanted
fiat uno turbo, Mg Maestro, XR2, Suzuki swift gti, In the 90"s sierra coswoth 4x4 ,Escort cosworth ,
nothing really grabs my attention now except the focus ST ,the new fiesta ST , I would like a focus RS 2009-2012 , but have got used to big comfy Audi"s and BMW"s , I think that's why prices of old fords have gone so high , men who are 40-60 now who don't want a hot hatch every day ,want one they either had in there youth or wanted
Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.
Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
You seem such a nice bloke to give such a nice welcome to "new boy"Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
Always smile when I see reference to early Hot Hatches and the omission of 2 less remembered examples ...
Talbot Sunbeam Lotus and Vauxhall Chevette HS , both based on Grannies Hatch- back never mind your mothers !
I have owned an example of the former for 29 years and I'm still in my 40's - a 1980 car - RWD , 960kg , 150bhp , 0-60 in 6.6 sec ( Autocar test). = Hot Hatch to me.
Quicker than all but the most expensive Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche in its day ..
Of course it has no driver aids ,the brakes mean you have to think ahead earlier than usual and lack of power steering negates the need for a Gym membership - you "Drive" the car rather than rely on fancy electronics - still makes me chuckle ..
Posted simply to highlight the omission rather than be controversial
Talbot Sunbeam Lotus and Vauxhall Chevette HS , both based on Grannies Hatch- back never mind your mothers !
I have owned an example of the former for 29 years and I'm still in my 40's - a 1980 car - RWD , 960kg , 150bhp , 0-60 in 6.6 sec ( Autocar test). = Hot Hatch to me.
Quicker than all but the most expensive Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche in its day ..
Of course it has no driver aids ,the brakes mean you have to think ahead earlier than usual and lack of power steering negates the need for a Gym membership - you "Drive" the car rather than rely on fancy electronics - still makes me chuckle ..
Posted simply to highlight the omission rather than be controversial
CampDavid said:
Antj said:
New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.
Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
The Teg type R i’s effectively a hot hatch, it wa’s front wheel drive and competed again’st the 306 GTI-6/Rallye at launch. It i’s a coupe body with rear ‘seat’s ‘so it's a’s clo’se to a hatch a’s it'‘s po’s’sible to get.Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal
The CTR wa’s decent enough but by no mean’s a hero - what do you want him to do, mention every hot hatch of the la’st 30 year’s, there have been a few.
The hot hatch prince i’s not the Fie’sta ‘ST. It never will be.
Your the rea’son that PH i’s wrong the’se day’s
Currently the fiesta ST does seem to be coming out on top in that category and having recently driven one it is an excellent machine.
lamboman100 said:
Yes, the hot-hatch era lasted from 1975 to 2013.
We have entered the super-hatch era from 2013 onwards.
The Golf R, A45 AMG and others are leading the way.
Two years from now, if you own any car that does not get to 60mph in under 4.5secs, it will feel very slow
I will continue to drive slow cars then; and look forward buying more slow cars in the future. After all there is more to driving than straight line 0-60 sprints.We have entered the super-hatch era from 2013 onwards.
The Golf R, A45 AMG and others are leading the way.
Two years from now, if you own any car that does not get to 60mph in under 4.5secs, it will feel very slow
Long live the slow car and roads with bends in.
Patch888 said:
Currently the fiesta ST does seem to be coming out on top in that category and having recently driven one it is an excellent machine.
The ST seems to disprove the too much grip theory given it almost seems to be regarded as more fun than a GT86. Maybe the key is the feeling of having an engine and a more limited but still playful chassis to exploit lower grip. So perhaps the 86's downfal is a low torque engine combined with the wide, low chassis despite the low grip??..Someone give James a Mountune (or even standard) Fiesta ST for a couple of hours, yep? Please?
Compared to, say, a Golf GTi, or a handful of other competitors, it is slow both in terms of 0-60 and top speed, and doesn't look ultra modern inside. And within 50 metres of driving it, he'll know that none of that matters. Its light, lag free, steers like the best of the 1980s stuff (despite the electric steering that people like Audi and Porsche still can't get right) and has all those bits of hot hatch DNA that have been missing in so many cars for over 20 years.
Seriously PH chaps, ring up Ford and ask.
Compared to, say, a Golf GTi, or a handful of other competitors, it is slow both in terms of 0-60 and top speed, and doesn't look ultra modern inside. And within 50 metres of driving it, he'll know that none of that matters. Its light, lag free, steers like the best of the 1980s stuff (despite the electric steering that people like Audi and Porsche still can't get right) and has all those bits of hot hatch DNA that have been missing in so many cars for over 20 years.
Seriously PH chaps, ring up Ford and ask.
lamboman100 said:
Yes, the hot-hatch era lasted from 1975 to 2013.
We have entered the super-hatch era from 2013 onwards.
The Golf R, A45 AMG and others are leading the way.
Two years from now, if you own any car that does not get to 60mph in under 4.5secs, it will feel very slow
And... ?We have entered the super-hatch era from 2013 onwards.
The Golf R, A45 AMG and others are leading the way.
Two years from now, if you own any car that does not get to 60mph in under 4.5secs, it will feel very slow
We've never had it so good. Back in the day there were ordinary cars and Supercars. That was it. And the latter were recalcitrant unreliable heaps of crap you couldn't use as daily drivers because they were so truculent and unreliable.
These days we have cars filling every niche from ultra-cheap white goods through to insane hypercars, with everything in between.
As has been pointed out ad nauseum in this thread (and I apologise for being contributory to this), the cars you crave still exist; they're just not called Hot Hatches any more. Manufacturers do, and will continue to, fill every imaginable niche and so I don't think this niche will ever remain unfilled. Because that is the nature of car manufacture these days.
Super-hatches will get ever more super, for sure, but the demand for fun warm hatches will remain for as long as we have small shopping trolley hatches that can be inexpensively warmed over for profit.
Patch888 said:
No healthy debate then? Your opinion is right and that's the end of it?
Currently the fiesta ST does seem to be coming out on top in that category and having recently driven one it is an excellent machine.
The original post was not only poorly informed but massively aggressive to the journalist who wrote the article so no, not really into having a healthy debate with the chap in question.Currently the fiesta ST does seem to be coming out on top in that category and having recently driven one it is an excellent machine.
Glad you like the ST but in todays field is it really a great hot hatch? I don't see i really making anyone's dream list and, while I've not driven the ST, the Fiesta's chassis is competent but a little inert in many ways.
Hot hatches are very emotive. I think you never truly forget your true love/first love. For me it's the Renault 5 gt Turbo every other hot hatch isnt as good. Mind you i am a die hard diamond fan. The Williams, 182 and clio v6 are all time classics the 182 came close on ownership terms to the 5.
For my mate its the Mg Maestro turbo. He had one and wants another.
What I do agree on is modern hot hatches are too good, too refined for me a hot hatch needs to stick to a simple recipe. It has to be small, light and a massive hoot to drive on really twisty roads. That is the raison d'etre of hot hatches.
For my mate its the Mg Maestro turbo. He had one and wants another.
What I do agree on is modern hot hatches are too good, too refined for me a hot hatch needs to stick to a simple recipe. It has to be small, light and a massive hoot to drive on really twisty roads. That is the raison d'etre of hot hatches.
k-ink said:
Fantuzzi said:
But the main issue with the article is the Nurburgring hate, because the car he fails the mention in relation to his point was the amazingly involving r26.r!
The car that had journos foaming at the mouth at its fun factor as well as making every petrolhead wish their rear windows were plastic. It was awesome. Yet that is avoided to make his point, a point that is rather nostalgic, and just wrong with the mass of warm hatches on sale today.
That is a fair point. This is a car I often forget all about. I would prefer it smaller in the ideal world though.The car that had journos foaming at the mouth at its fun factor as well as making every petrolhead wish their rear windows were plastic. It was awesome. Yet that is avoided to make his point, a point that is rather nostalgic, and just wrong with the mass of warm hatches on sale today.
http://abarth695biposto.com/
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