RE: Lotus Evora 400: even lighter, even dearer

[Lotuslover669]

Havoc856 said:

No need for shielding - seriously though whats the equivalent price and what model of 911 in the market?

i ended up getting the 911 s with £15k worth of options, I am happy.

[Notanotherturbo]

Have to laugh - all the high tech weight saving materials and it's less than 100kgs lighter than my 25 year old R32 GTR - which also has 400 bhp. And that's with 4wheel drive and a much bigger body.

And on the price of options, I was in a Jaguar dealers the other day and a carbon fibre engine cover for my XKR was best part of 3k. Needless to say it remained in the cabinet. You can buy a tidy Clio 182 for that !!!

[kambites]

Is an R32 really bigger than an Evora? Still it's a bit of a moot point, cars have got heavier int he name of safety and comfort; the current equivalent of your R32 is a LOT heavier than an Evora.

[Havoc856]

Notanotherturbo said:

Have to laugh - all the high tech weight saving materials and it's less than 100kgs lighter than my 25 year old R32 GTR - which also has 400 bhp. And that's with 4wheel drive and a much bigger body.

And on the price of options, I was in a Jaguar dealers the other day and a carbon fibre engine cover for my XKR was best part of 3k. Needless to say it remained in the cabinet. You can buy a tidy Clio 182 for that !!!

Pedestrian safety has a lot to answer for. The R32 doesn't have to abide by the laws that were around when the Evora and other cars like the same generation 911 were built.

Unfortunately its a bit like comparing lettuces to oranges. Now the GTR and the Evora... thats a fair argument because they both abide by the same requirements for safety structures etc which are basically.. heavy AF.

The carbon fibre engine cover for the Evora is... well its about the price of a clutch replacement.

[Havoc856]

Lotuslover669 said:

i ended up getting the 911 s with £15k worth of options, I am happy.

Fair enough! Happy motoring!

[Ozzie Osmond]

Notanotherturbo said:

Have to laugh - all the high tech weight saving materials and it's less than 100kgs lighter than my 25 year old R32 GTR - which also has 400 bhp. And that's with 4wheel drive and a much bigger body.

Or Corvette UK will sell you a brand new 460 bhp Stingray at the same +100kg weight for just £65,000.

The money that some people are willing to chuck at cars never ceases to amaze me. Anyone for a 4-pot diesel Evoque convertible? Bargain at £50,000

[Lotuslover669]

Havoc856 said:

Fair enough! Happy motoring!

why the sudden change? this duality of nature.....and here i thought you were gonna spam pictures of burning Porsche's again... but thank you PH havoc, you are a nice guy.

[Havoc856]

These be the facts from Google...

Lotus Evora (2010 NA)

Wheelbase 2,575 mm (101.4 in)
Length 4,350 mm (171 in)
Width 1,848 mm (72.8 in)
Height 1,229 mm (48.4 in)
Weight 1,383kg

Lotus Evora (2016 400)

Wheelbase 2,575 mm (101.4 in)
Length 4,350 mm (171 in)
Width 1,848 mm (72.8 in)
Height 1,229 mm (48.4 in)
Weight 1415kg

R32 (1989-1994)

Wheelbase 2,615 mm (103.0 in)
Length 4,545 mm (178.9 in)
Width 1,755 mm (69.1 in)
Height 1,341 mm (52.8 in)
Weight 1430kg

Edited by Havoc856 on Friday 19th August 21:24

[Havoc856]

Lotuslover669 said:

why the sudden change? this duality of nature.....and here i thought you were gonna spam pictures of burning Porsche's again... but thank you PH havoc, you are a nice guy.

I'm just an enthusiast.

[Havoc856]

Ozzie Osmond said:

4-pot diesel Evoque convertible? Bargain at £50,000

Just choked on my tea...

Aren't they about 20p a year down the line?

[jayemm89]

The weight figure I like to quote when dealing with the Evora is the 458 Speciale. The 458 Speciale weighs exactly the same (1395kg) as the quoted weight for an EU spec Evora.

Now, if you consider that Ferrari's quoted weight is "with lightweight options attached" that becomes pretty impressive. Ferrari were charging over 300K for a car in that spec and they could make it and all the bits out of all the fancy lightweight materials they liked. Lotus get stuck with relatively off-the-shelf components but still managed to keep the weight down. And the Evora has two little back seats. Sure the Ferrari is WAY up on power, never gonna pretend that the Lotus is comparable with that, but that's the way it is. The F355, as a point of reference, has no safety equipment in it at all really (not even TC) and that was quoted at 1380kg DRY - so probably the best part of 100kg heavier than an Evora.

The benefit of Lotus' construction method would really become apparent in the convertible Evora, because you will be able to lose the roof with almost no added weight, for extremely little structural rigidity loss. The same as McLaren with their carbon tub.

Out of interest, I was told by someone in the know that Lotus tried building one of their tubs out of carbon fibre - the weight saving was only about 7KG - totally not worth it for the added cost and complexity.

[Lotuslover669]

Havoc856 said:

I'm just an enthusiast.

you know, this change in attitude caught me off guard tbh, are you using the jesus art of "love your enemies" ? and here i was preparing an arsenal of responses and replies but you disarmed me of them, touche' my friend touche', you win.

Koko aka MrDs

[Ozzie Osmond]

Havoc856 said:

Ozzie Osmond said:

4-pot diesel Evoque convertible? Bargain at £50,000

Just choked on my tea...

Aren't they about 20p a year down the line?

You'd think.

[Havoc856]

Looking at this video its interesting working out what they'd do with the roll hoop midway through the passenger section as there is zero rollover protection in the a pillar as with the Elise/Exige.

I'd like to see a roadster but it looks like a fair amount of safety system redesigning would be required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTLCxASQvY&li...

[Ozzie Osmond]

^^ What's really alarming to me is the stunning value at the lower end of the market these days. If I didn't already have a sportscar the prospect of an MX5 from about £20k would certainly get my attention.

Put simply, there's better and better value amongst the "white goods" compared to the daft prices asked (and paid) for "premium" product.

[jayemm89]

Ozzie

Any product, literally ANYTHING is going to suffer from the law of diminishing returns. A car made in the hundreds will NEVER be able to compete with a car made in the millions.

Yeah, my £10k M3 is going to be 90% as quick as my £70k Evora 400 in most situations. But it is nowhere near the same car. Not even close. Others may disagree. YMMV, etc.

Just look at the prices of classic Ferraris - £20m for a car which would have it's arse handed to it by a mild hatchback. It's not all about performance.

Incidentally, I see you own a 981 Boxster. Which I adore. Best car Porsche made in recent times (918 excluded)

[rtz62]

How would I feel if it had a £90,000 price before options in certain markets?
Well presumably it's what that matket can bare or support, and presumably the vehicles that are its competition will be in a similar price bracket.
Therefore, if I was in the market for an Evora, wherever it was I lived, then the Porsche etc would be on a similar price point, and it would make no difference.
Look at how much a Corvette Z06 3LZ with (C7.R Special Edition is another $23k) a load of options is around $102k in the U.S of A.
That's a 650-odd bhp monster for not a lot of money.
And that's the equivalent of £77k in our money.
A Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat costs from circa $65k over there with over 700bhp, so the 'Vette looks expensive in their domestic market but again it appears cheap to us, until it lands here.
So if the Evora was marketed in the States, how would it be judged by PHers? Against either or both of these, and at what price point would it be pitched, notwithstanding the taxes etc payable over there?
Personally I'm grateful we have people like Lotus who offer a different answer to the same question asked of Porsche etc. I'm grateful they have their idiosyncrasies that make them different and give them 'character'.
I'm grateful, even though I can't justify buying one, let alone afford one.
And what ever Lotuslover669 is on, he needs to halve the dosage, as I'm concerned about his continued reference to 'pitchforks' and 'drum beating'; sounds like an audition, 40yrs too late, for The Worzels' ('Combine Harvester' and 'I am a cider drinker' etc).......

[Lotuslover669]

jayemm89 said:

Ozzie

Any product, literally ANYTHING is going to suffer from the law of diminishing returns. A car made in the hundreds will NEVER be able to compete with a car made in the millions.

Yeah, my £10k M3 is going to be 90% as quick as my £70k Evora 400 in most situations. But it is nowhere near the same car. Not even close. Others may disagree. YMMV, etc.

Just look at the prices of classic Ferraris - £20m for a car which would have it's arse handed to it by a mild hatchback. It's not all about performance.

Incidentally, I see you own a 981 Boxster. Which I adore. Best car Porsche made in recent times (918 excluded)

911R imho is the greatest car porsche made in modern times, its already fetching a premium of $500k above sticker, but beware of limited edition cars, there is a saying in the automotive world about limited editions "if your car doesnt come with a numbers badge on it, its not "that" limited" , case in point ferrari they say 500 cars but ppl approximate there is 550~580 in the world. or a more recent example ford GT, "we are making 500 only" sorry guys..."we are making 500 more" etc etc

[Lotuslover669]

rtz62 said:

How would I feel if it had a £90,000 price before options in certain markets?
Well presumably it's what that matket can bare or support, and presumably the vehicles that are its competition will be in a similar price bracket.
Therefore, if I was in the market for an Evora, wherever it was I lived, then the Porsche etc would be on a similar price point, and it would make no difference.
Look at how much a Corvette Z06 3LZ with (C7.R Special Edition is another $23k) a load of options is around $102k in the U.S of A.
That's a 650-odd bhp monster for not a lot of money.
And that's the equivalent of £77k in our money.
A Dodge Challenger SRT Hellcat costs from circa $65k over there with over 700bhp, so the 'Vette looks expensive in their domestic market but again it appears cheap to us, until it lands here.
So if the Evora was marketed in the States, how would it be judged by PHers? Against either or both of these, and at what price point would it be pitched, notwithstanding the taxes etc payable over there?
Personally I'm grateful we have people like Lotus who offer a different answer to the same question asked of Porsche etc. I'm grateful they have their idiosyncrasies that make them different and give them 'character'.
I'm grateful, even though I can't justify buying one, let alone afford one.
And what ever Lotuslover669 is on, he needs to halve the dosage, as I'm concerned about his continued reference to 'pitchforks' and 'drum beating'; sounds like an audition, 40yrs too late, for The Worzels' ('Combine Harvester' and 'I am a cider drinker' etc).......

its all good now mate, havoc used his jesus juijitsu on me, we cool now...no more pitchforks

[Hungrymc]

Lotuslover669 said:

1- the argument that "Ferrari, Porsche, Mclaren do it, so should Lotus" is a false premise......

2- for some Lotus fanboys the fact that they are a "small, custom build company" should somehow protect them from a harsh / Raw criticism.

so now you tell me, given the above explanation that i wrote what other term should i have used to describe the situation that was happening in the article?

MrDs

Sorry for trimming the quote, trying to avoid massive posts.

1) No one is saying they "should". Most people (I think) are saying that it's reasonable that they try. And if they try, why should they be on the end of a Sarcastic / Ridiculing article. This is quite a difference which I think you have missed (or I have misunderstood most of the posts).

2) Harsh, raw criticism is OK. But the cars purpose and objectives are a very important context in doing so. All cars compromise in different areas and prioritise others. They are also of course impacted by resources etc. So with the criticism should come an appraisal of the attributes that the car is really competing on. And behind it all is the fact that cars are very emotional, they trigger a different reaction in different people and even those of use with a fairly common description of why we like cars and what we want from them will be drawn to different cars and their different methods of delivery. Good journalism captures all of these things. It captures the things done well, explains the poor areas and compromises, and explains to prospective buyers what they should really expect and what alternatives they should consider.

I haven't got all the history of the squabbles. I'm not a fanboy but have recently bought a Lotus as a deliberate change in direction from a 911. My Evora is full of compromises. The lack of resources at Lotus is evident in many, many areas. I do wonder if some of the attempts at competing with the mainstream are a little misguided as without the sales volumes and resources of the bigger OEMs, they will never be able to execute the add-ons quite as efficiently (Satnav / Trim etc). But, the engine in my old 911 wasn't a class leading engine, 320bhp from 3.6l...others made more impressive engines, The bottom line output was not impressive, but it was full of character and in its own way was a really lovely engine and was a major plus for the car despite being very flawed.

If I wanted the fastest car at this price, I'd have bought a GTR. If I wanted a great GT I'd have bought an XKR, If I wanted a good sports car that is also a good GT with low risk, I'd have bought a 911. What I actually wanted was an exciting 2+2 that drove great and was a bit unusual and (to my eye) beautiful. There are a small number of things that it does far better (for me) than any of its competitors, and there are many other things that other cars do better.