Discussion
MJK 24 said:
Quick one... have you ever been on your travels and spotted an F1 on the road? Approx. 4 weeks ago I was travelling up the A1, about 8pm. An orange F1 with the 'long tail' bodywork overtook me sounding glorious. Last week, my dad rang me to tell me that a metallic red/maroon car had overtaken him on the (I think) M40.Mark
Orange longtail F1? I'm surprised, I have good knowledge that Mclaren won't allow a roadgoing GTR longtail; perhaps it was a Mosler? As for the red/maroon F1 on the M40, that'll be Rowan Atkinson going home. Good spot!!!
hurstg01 said:
Orange longtail F1? I'm surprised, I have good knowledge that Mclaren won't allow a roadgoing GTR longtail; perhaps it was a Mosler? As for the red/maroon F1 on the M40, that'll be Rowan Atkinson going home. Good spot!!!
Not sure about longtail, but isn't the other McLaren F1 on PH owned by Mr Bridger an orange one? 
v15ben said:
hurstg01 said:
Orange longtail F1? I'm surprised, I have good knowledge that Mclaren won't allow a roadgoing GTR longtail; perhaps it was a Mosler? As for the red/maroon F1 on the M40, that'll be Rowan Atkinson going home. Good spot!!!
Not sure about longtail, but isn't the other McLaren F1 on PH owned by Mr Bridger an orange one? That's it!
Now, can we confirm that Mr Bridger was driving up the A1 at approx 8pm a number of weeks ago? I could find out the exact date from work records if req.
Dr JonboyG said:
RobDickinson said:
From Wiki the F1 engine was a development of the M70 v12 used in the 7 and 8 serieses of the laet 80's/early 90's.
Whilst Wikipedia is fun and all, I wouldn't ever count on it to tell me something accurately,
As has been said a few times in this thread, and as you'll find if you read Driving Ambition, the F1's V12 has very very very little in common with the 5 l V12 as found in the 750 and 850, other than they're both V12s made by BMW.
They do however share a designation. The 850CSi 5.6L V12 was designated the S70B56, the S indicated it as a Motorsport developed engine, and the 70 a derivation of the M70 family. BMW did develop a DOHC 48v head for the M8 prototype, but later shelved it for various reasons, this was designated as S70/1. The McLaren engine is designated as the S70/2.
The M70 itself is developed largely from the M50 family of six cylinder engines, which are also the basis for the S50 series of six cylinder M3 engines. So it's stands to reason that there would be shared development and research work and that this could be applied across the range to an extent.
However they are not all exactly interchangeable in parts, although some are very close in some ways. The main problem with the M70 is that it has a poor flowing head design that is very difficult to improve without major changes and the entire engine in general is not particularly suited to make big power in standard form. So to create the M8, BMW went about changing the heads, no doubt using the excellent M3 heads as a basis, then found they needed to modify the whole engine block and internals extensively to take advantage of the new flow capabilities. But of course this engine had a lot of changes from the M70 or even S70B56 and being a limited production model would be very, very expensive, in the already very expensive and rather poor selling 8 series. So the program got the chop and the S70/1 was shelved.
Then around that time McLaren came looking for an engine and Paul Roche realised he had this engine that was just about perfect what they were looking for. This engine was too expensive for a 'normal' car but would be perfect for a money no object supercar. So he dusted off the project, developed it further, increasing capacity to the limit, lightening parts it as much as possible, and basically perfecting it.
So to say it is related to the M70 or even M50 M3 engine is not entirely incorrect, but it would be wrong to say they are 'just' a mere development of those engines or just two m3 engines together as it's far more extreme than that. It's a like saying the Koneigsegg has a Mustang 4.6L V8 engine. Sure, somewhere way back down the line it was based originally on the Ford V8, but Koenigsegg have modified and developed it so extensively that I doubt there is anything standard left of it at all, aside from similar dimensions.
tommfuller said:
I remember reading/hearing not sure where Gordon Murray saying something along the lines of he wanted the car to really last, so if someone found one covered up by a tarp in an old hay shed in 50 years time, it wouldn't have rotted away and could be got going again. Sounds like the engines are pretty durable, but do you think he managed this? It would be nice to think of these cars really lasting.
Tom,
I think that GM was contemplating the many sad images which we have all seen of cars that have sat idle and ignored for decades, only to have been discovered by chance when they were perhaps beyond redemption.
As I think someone else has pointed out, there are some parts of any car that are vulnerable to exposure to air and to the vagaries of climate, such as seals and boots. Other things lose their functionality if they are static for long periods, such as lubrication and springs. If, Tom, in fifty years' time you do come upon a very dusty F1 in an old shed, before you attach that booster battery and crank her up, you will need to do a bit more fettling.
It would be true, however, that the less steel you had and the more plastic, the less perishable the car would be.
Cheers.
R_U_LOCAL said:
How much truth is there in the rumour I heard that the F1 engine is effectively 2 M3 engines developed into a V12.
I'm not particularly bothered if it's not true, but it would be nice to tell people my car has half an F1 engine!
I'm not particularly bothered if it's not true, but it would be nice to tell people my car has half an F1 engine!
Reg,
I wouldn't want to get between the different posts above.
From GM's initial visit to Munich to lay out the project with Rosche and team to delivery of first running prototype took 15 months. We can infer from that what we will.
Anybody who is really good at designing, say, engines, and who has already designed some great ones, might be expected to exploit some of what he has learned from experience by applying the same proven principles and techniques to his next engine.
It is true that BMW has never used this engine in anything else (save the one mental X5), and will not build any more. In that sense the engine is unique. But perhaps that is the same as saying that every person is unique - although siblings are very related. Your engine and mine are like brother and sister.
MJK 24 said:
Quick one... have you ever been on your travels and spotted an F1 on the road?
Apart from when I was going to a place where I knew or expected a car would be, I've come across one in the Nurburgring paddock, encountered one heading in the direction of the F1 "factory" in Woking shortly after I had left it (so it was what must have been a rather rare mutual sighting), and once I was overtaken by one on a motorway.
v15ben said:
hurstg01 said:
Orange longtail F1? I'm surprised, I have good knowledge that Mclaren won't allow a roadgoing GTR longtail; perhaps it was a Mosler? As for the red/maroon F1 on the M40, that'll be Rowan Atkinson going home. Good spot!!!
Not sure about longtail, but isn't the other McLaren F1 on PH owned by Mr Bridger an orange one? There is more than one road-legal F1, either GTR-conversion or standard with aero kit, that's been done up in orange and grey a la the LMs.
The factory's position is that the '97 GTR is sufficiently different from the '95-6s that, unlike the earlier cars, it cannot be made road-legal for the UK.
There is another school of thought that begs to differ, and I recently had a conversation with a '97 owner who assured me that he was on the verge of legalising his independently.
flemke said:
There is more than one road-legal F1, either GTR-conversion or standard with aero kit, that's been done up in orange and grey a la the LMs.
The factory's position is that the '97 GTR is sufficiently different from the '95-6s that, unlike the earlier cars, it cannot be made road-legal for the UK.
There is another school of thought that begs to differ, and I recently had a conversation with a '97 owner who assured me that he was on the verge of legalising his independently.
Very true, a few of the GTR's are now Papaya (#11R, #16R a la Mr Bridger,#08R (IIRC) and I think one more) and at least 2 have kept the same racing livery whilst in roadgoing trim (#13R and #06R). As far as I know there is no F1 roadcar changed to be an LM lookalike (but I'll have to get back to you on that, my files are on my home PC and I am at work)
One of the guys I am in contact with is on the prep team for a longtail GTR and he stated the previous owner enquired to get it converted to road going trim but was told a definite 'no' from Mclaren; he then sold it to the present owner.
The Papaya longtail (#27R) at Cars International (spotted at Goodwood FOS over the years) isn't road registered, despite it having a number plate - the plate belongs to another of the cars they have listed for sale / to the company itself
Another guy I keep in contact with has close contact with the Lark GTR you played with recently in and around Virginia Waters / Windsor. Suffice to say I am pleased the present owner hasnt changed the livery to be another LM lookalike, that Lark livery is beautiful
I thought I was blacklisted (not sure what for though).... 
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