RE: Driven: The New BMW 5-Series

[AB]

We've had the brochure through in the post. The old man awaits the 540d M Sport... for some reason.

Will it ever materialise?

[daemon]

milesr3 said:

milesr3 said:

Skrambles said:

The SEs have always looked dull, appealing to people who like the A6 or e-class.

LOL - not at all! I wouldn't be seen dead in an A6 or E-class, but my 535d is an SE because I prefer the ride on 17" wheels with 50 profile tyres rather than the stupidly hard ride of the sport model with 19" wheels and 30 profiles, which just aren't suited to British roads judging by the numbers that crack and fail.

The SEs are bought by people who aren't sucked in by BMW marketing, or want to drive something a little more subtle.

The ride on the 19's isnt stupidly hard - its a good balance between style, handling and grip - we did 1000 miles up through scotland in my 535d M Sport on 19's with my wifes elderly parents in the rear and the car was nothing but impeccable the whole time.

I never had any 19s fail.

I wasnt sucked into the BMW marketing, i preferred the styling, ride height, handling, lack of chrome around the windows, the anthracite headling and the seats of the M Sport, and i thought it complemented the 535d very well. There is currently 1 535d SE in the BMW AUC network at the comment, compared to 51 535d M Sports, so i'm not alone in thinking that.

Also, the M Sport pack represents (relatively in BMW terms) good value for money. Adding full leather, dechromed windows, anthracite headlining, sports steering wheel and sports seats to an SE costs £2290. Upgrading to the M Sport and adding full leather only costs £830 more - and for that you get upgraded alloys to 18 inches, sports suspension and sports front and rear bumpers.

If you're of the age where you prefer an SE, then thats your perrogative, but please dont say the rest of us are 'sucked' in just for preferring the Sport styling - this is PistonHeads after all.

Edited by daemon on Sunday 31st January 13:29

Edited by daemon on Sunday 31st January 13:30

[daemon]

CarbonM5 said:

I think the whole big sports saloon thing is over now,it's true that the new M5 will have much more power than its predecessor and blow it away on a 2 mile runway but it will be heavier and even less involving to drive when it really matters.You have to question if the new model is a bit pointless really?

Im sure if you took the above 315bhp M5 and threw it down a twisty road it would be more satisfying than any of the current super barges simply because it is lighter,rawer and more connected with the driver.

All new cars are heavier than cars 20 years ago due to safety legislation etc.

Personally, i could never reconcile to myself the likes of the m5, e63 anyway. If i was into the £70K car realm, chances are i'd buy a 911 and have a daily runner.

[Deva Link]

daemon said:

CarbonM5 said:

I think the whole big sports saloon thing is over now,it's true that the new M5 will have much more power than its predecessor and blow it away on a 2 mile runway but it will be heavier and even less involving to drive when it really matters.You have to question if the new model is a bit pointless really?

Im sure if you took the above 315bhp M5 and threw it down a twisty road it would be more satisfying than any of the current super barges simply because it is lighter,rawer and more connected with the driver.

All new cars are heavier than cars 20 years ago due to safety legislation etc.

Personally, i could never reconcile to myself the likes of the m5, e63 anyway. If i was into the £70K car realm, chances are i'd buy a 911 and have a daily runner.

It's perhaps a different argument, but such cars seem pretty pointless and useless in the UK anyway. You just can't afford to completely ignore the law, and even stretching things a bit you're using such a fraction of the cars capability.

It's got to be more "involving" to drive a basic supermini at legalish speeds than an M5.

[daemon]

Deva Link said:

daemon said:

CarbonM5 said:

I think the whole big sports saloon thing is over now,it's true that the new M5 will have much more power than its predecessor and blow it away on a 2 mile runway but it will be heavier and even less involving to drive when it really matters.You have to question if the new model is a bit pointless really?

Im sure if you took the above 315bhp M5 and threw it down a twisty road it would be more satisfying than any of the current super barges simply because it is lighter,rawer and more connected with the driver.

All new cars are heavier than cars 20 years ago due to safety legislation etc.

Personally, i could never reconcile to myself the likes of the m5, e63 anyway. If i was into the £70K car realm, chances are i'd buy a 911 and have a daily runner.

It's perhaps a different argument, but such cars seem pretty pointless and useless in the UK anyway. You just can't afford to completely ignore the law, and even stretching things a bit you're using such a fraction of the cars capability.

It's got to be more "involving" to drive a basic supermini at legalish speeds than an M5.

+1

Totally agree.

[Skrambles]

Deva Link said:

daemon said:

CarbonM5 said:

I think the whole big sports saloon thing is over now,it's true that the new M5 will have much more power than its predecessor and blow it away on a 2 mile runway but it will be heavier and even less involving to drive when it really matters.You have to question if the new model is a bit pointless really?

Im sure if you took the above 315bhp M5 and threw it down a twisty road it would be more satisfying than any of the current super barges simply because it is lighter,rawer and more connected with the driver.

All new cars are heavier than cars 20 years ago due to safety legislation etc.

Personally, i could never reconcile to myself the likes of the m5, e63 anyway. If i was into the £70K car realm, chances are i'd buy a 911 and have a daily runner.

It's perhaps a different argument, but such cars seem pretty pointless and useless in the UK anyway. You just can't afford to completely ignore the law, and even stretching things a bit you're using such a fraction of the cars capability.

It's got to be more "involving" to drive a basic supermini at legalish speeds than an M5.

It is fun wringing the neck of a hot hatch, but when you get bored of/grow out of the basic level of equipment, comfort and sophistication, it will always be great to have an option like the m5. They definitely could do with putting a more vocal exhaust on the m5 tho' - the e60 m5 exhaust just doesn't do the car justice and they'll have to work even harder to make the f10 m5 sound good with its blown v8. And if they can put a sensible transmission on the new m5, I'll definitely be interested.

Edited by Skrambles on Sunday 31st January 19:47

[Urban Sports]

HAB said:

to this



sigh...

Yes it would be so much better if car manufacturers didn't progress

[j123]

I see we have quite a few pro BMW people on here- who are bullish on the cars and the company even when they have not driven the new cars. And when decent drivers who have driven them say hey these cars are no fun to drive and are actually worse than the previous generation, throw up a classic straw man, "well involvement is for hatches" type argument. No actually previous gen 5-series cars were very fun and involving to drive, and indeed this lack will be strongly missed- however the status quo types prefer to spin the "new" differences. J

[daemon]

j123 said:

I see we have quite a few pro BMW people on here- who are bullish on the cars and the company even when they have not driven the new cars.

No one has driven the new 5 as its not out yet. I've driven (and owned) the e60, the latest x5, the latest z4 coupe an e90 3 series, and the last of the e46 coupes. I'm a strong advocate of BMWs and what they are trying to achieve with the 5 series - i've seen / read nothing that would make me think the f10 isnt going to be an evolution of the 5 series brand.

j123 said:

And when decent drivers who have driven them say hey these cars are no fun to drive and are actually worse than the previous generation, throw up a classic straw man, "well involvement is for hatches" type argument.

A 5 series is a large exec saloon. Its not a sports car. Thats not to say you cant have fun in them and they're not 'fun'. The mention was of the m5 - personally, i'd rather not spend £70K on an m5 - i think you'd get more driver involvement in a 911 - even if that meant buying a used 911 and running a daily saloon car too. I dont think too many people would argue that a 5 series should be more involving / a better drive than, say a 911?

j123 said:

No actually previous gen 5-series cars were very fun and involving to drive, and indeed this lack will be strongly missed- however the status quo types prefer to spin the "new" differences. J

I think you're looking at the past with rose tinted spectacles. I had an e34 5 series, and nice though it was, it was no sports car and 'involving' to drive. It was a big exec saloon. A very good one though. I loved mine - even if by todays standards it was very 'basic'. I dont think too many buyers of large exec cars would tolerate a car without leather, nav, ipod connectivity, bluetooth etc.

Edited by daemon on Sunday 31st January 21:09

Edited by daemon on Sunday 31st January 21:10

[Mr Dave]

New 5 series is uglier than the last, is heavier, is less involving to drive, has worse build quality.

Same was said about the E34 when it was launched. Then the E39. Then the E60.

Same as with all the 3 series. Its boring.

I love E34s, I have an E39, I want an E60.

Saw this new one and a GT when I was going up to the pistonheads show (both in black) and it looked absolutely fantastic from the front. Pictures do it no justice. Cant wait till the facelift, thats when all BMWs just get better.



Every single one of those is a good car.

[Black S2K]

RobM77 said:

That steering system sounds like that fitted to the Prelude in the mid 90s. That worked well didn't it? Or was it just Setright's glowing reviews that have tainted my view?

I bought my 2.2VTi red top to find out what he was on about.

I still have it, four years on! I'm completely convinced. Mind you, the Honda system adapts for steering input speed too, so doesn't suffer the transitional problems described with the F10. It balances superbly. I believe earlier versions of HICAS were a bit primitive, too, but I've not tried them myself.

Still, maybe now oooh, BMW's adopted the system, maybe punters will buy into it even if they are to dim or lazy to understand its advantages.

Edited by Black S2K on Monday 1st February 10:08

[Zod]

CarbonM5 said:

I think the whole big sports saloon thing is over now,it's true that the new M5 will have much more power than its predecessor and blow it away on a 2 mile runway but it will be heavier and even less involving to drive when it really matters.You have to question if the new model is a bit pointless really?

Im sure if you took the above 315bhp M5 and threw it down a twisty road it would be more satisfying than any of the current super barges simply because it is lighter,rawer and more connected with the driver.

The E60 M5 is a whole 29kg heavier than the E39. The suggestion is that the F10 will not be heavier. The E39 was the one that grew in weight - by 150kg over the E34. I think you are projecting your concerns about your E39 onto the new car.

[Kivster]

Personally I think that BMW have totally wrecked their image in the past couple of years.

I've always loved BMW's, my dad's always had them, from E12's, E28's through E30's and now to an E34, but I'm sorry, but what have BMW been doing these past few years? They used to mean quality, smooth and good to drive, all that they stand for now is the snob factor. "Look at me, I've got a sales rep job and a decent salary - BMW it is then."

There is just no substance to the cars any more, even the "cooking" models used to be good to drive, they used to be brilliant cars, now they make the "M-Cars" good, and totally disregard the lesser models. They're making posers cars, not "The Ultimate Driving Machine"

It's such a shame when you look back on the fantastic BMW's that have gone by!

BMW's good cars :-
2002 Tii and Turbo,
3.0 CSi/CSL,
635CSi,
Every M5 bar the E60,
M535i,
E21 323i,
E30 M3,
M1.

Now what do we have? This new 5 Series is one of the most bland and anonymous cars I've ever seen, bar the current Audi A6, the X6 is just pathetic, likewise with the X3 and X5, the 1 Series and 3 Series are boring and forgettable. "Aha", I hear you cry, "What about the E60 M5?"

Well, my cousin (Typical BMW driver as well) has an 07-Reg M5 and it's unbearable. It's dated, too complicated, too uncomfortable, and just too busy to be used every day. It's taken the "M-Cars" mantra and cr*pped all over it, it's not a comfortable 5 Series saloon that just so happens to be crushingly fast, it doesn't feel like a normal 5 Series (They had a 535d previous to the M5), it just feels too wired, too vulgar. It's so much of a posers car that it should have flashing signs saying "Look at me and all my money!". I've been out in a XF SV8 and XFR, and I'd take the Jaguar any day of the week.

The only two cars they are currently producing that I even remotely rate are the 335i and the M3. Both good cars, but I don't really WANT one, there is no lust with them. I lust after a 3.0 CSL, I lust after an XF SV8 or XFR. But there is just no feeling with them any more, they seem to bring out cars (Just like this 5 Series) on the pretence that "Oh, it's a BMW, some idiot will buy it." There is no thought or effort. Look at the innovations of the XF, look what Jaguar did to show off. There is none of this with BMW any more. I think sooner or later BMW are going to wake up and find that the XF's outselling this Grey Euro-Box 3 to 1 and have to get their rear into gear.

Could any of you honestly say you rather have - say - the 535d version of the new 5 Series over an XF V6 Diesel "S"?

I know I couldn't.

Edited by Kivster on Monday 1st February 21:09

Edited by Kivster on Monday 1st February 21:12

[LuS1fer]

I've just seen the new 5-series TV advert and the strap line is something about beauty. I nearly threw up my tea as I tried to choke back the laughter. Do they really think that if they say it, people will believe it?

[CarbonM5]

Zod said:

CarbonM5 said:

I think the whole big sports saloon thing is over now,it's true that the new M5 will have much more power than its predecessor and blow it away on a 2 mile runway but it will be heavier and even less involving to drive when it really matters.You have to question if the new model is a bit pointless really?

Im sure if you took the above 315bhp M5 and threw it down a twisty road it would be more satisfying than any of the current super barges simply because it is lighter,rawer and more connected with the driver.

The E60 M5 is a whole 29kg heavier than the E39. The suggestion is that the F10 will not be heavier. The E39 was the one that grew in weight - by 150kg over the E34. I think you are projecting your concerns about your E39 onto the new car.

My point was that the F10 will be even heavier,and judging by the weight of the 550i it certainly will be more than 29 kg more than the E60,and although more powerful will not be as involving or as evocative-therefore a bit pointless.

If you have seen the vids of the proto F10 M5 you will see and hear what I mean..

My point still stands that if they cant make it lighter and better then why bother at all.

[daemon]

CarbonM5 said:

My point still stands that if they cant make it lighter and better then why bother at all.

Surely that applies to all cars? Safety and emissions have a lot to do with it now, and we all expect our sat navs, electrics, climate control, idrives, etc and they all weigh heavily.

The public is getting what it wants.

[LuS1fer]

daemon said:

CarbonM5 said:

My point still stands that if they cant make it lighter and better then why bother at all.

Surely that applies to all cars? Safety and emissions have a lot to do with it now, and we all expect our sat navs, electrics, climate control, idrives, etc and they all weigh heavily.

The public is getting what it wants.

I disagree. I don't want any of that sh*t. What I am being offered is what the manufacturers say I should want. To be honest, they are the exact reasons I won't buy this sort of car.

[kambites]

daemon said:

CarbonM5 said:

My point still stands that if they cant make it lighter and better then why bother at all.

Surely that applies to all cars? Safety and emissions have a lot to do with it now, and we all expect our sat navs, electrics, climate control, idrives, etc and they all weigh heavily.

The public is getting what it wants.

The majority of M5 buyers obviously want luxuries, even if it is an the expense of handling and/or performance (although I don't think you can accuse an M5 of being slow) or BMW wouldn't be heading in the direction they are.

Surely anyone who is really into driving would prefer to buy something smaller and more nimble at the expense of interior space and comfort anyway? The M3, for example.

[Agent Orange]

LuS1fer said:

I disagree. I don't want any of that sh*t. What I am being offered is what the manufacturers say I should want. To be honest, they are the exact reasons I won't buy this sort of car.

As the song goes "And the public wants what the public gets"

[LuS1fer]

Agent Orange said:

LuS1fer said:

I disagree. I don't want any of that sh*t. What I am being offered is what the manufacturers say I should want. To be honest, they are the exact reasons I won't buy this sort of car.

As the song goes "And the public wants what the public gets"

The Jam. Great song.