RE: Tell Me I'm Wrong: BMW Z4 M Coupe
Discussion
Alright CH, (I love your vid's and articles btw.. a lot) many people love to write this car off and that's fine with me because I (among other things) am enjoying it for it's relative rarity. Perhaps most (journalists included) get hung up on a few things and then don't take too much time to find out what's really there. Credit due, however.. I know most writers try to fairly appraise what's presented to them in the limited time they have (except for those who enjoy too much a lazy spin in a lardy Mercedes). Anyways.. you and most everyone here on this thread need no points from me, so let me address this to the future uninitiated on PH..
I work in special fx in Los Angeles. I bought mine after test driving as many cars in its range and purpose as I could. I'm currently not tracking it (which is just not convenient for me at the moment), but I've done some karting, taken some driving classes and have experience pushing some fast cars to extremes in controlled environments. I've been relatively car-crazed all my life. Some of the best years of my life were being at Art Center College of Design in the automotive program.. connecting with long lost brethren I never knew existed until then.
About the Cayman/Cayman S - I really wanted to like it when it came out. I drove it several times (8-9/10 hard) and I must agree in what's been said about all its accomplished traits; so easy to manage being balanced like an old brass top and with such silky well-weighted controls - you feel like you're mixing with some affordable pedigree. However, I was also pretty bored. It's the old cliche' about dating the librarian. She can politely recite all sorts of detailed history to you, but ultimately, as far as driving experience.. you want more. You want to be with that mischievous one sitting in the back of the cafe wearing Persol knock-off's and the ink of a dragon's tail climbing up the side of her neck. She's not dumb.. just a little sassy and lacking some finishing school. Dad wasn't quite all the way there for her.. but his good genes are. That's the Z4M. Cayman? Maybe if your safety depends on it. If you're tracking hard every day and your looking for a reliably predictable partner.. that is what you want. I however wanted something a little more exciting for my weekends.
I also drove an M46 competition. I liked it, but to me, this car doesn't feel fast. In comparison, perhaps the extra weight and slower reactions (wagging trunk and more centered seating position, perhaps) dulls the experience somewhat. Like having one more drink than usual so you take the escalator rather than stairs. You still get to where you're going feeling good.. relaxed.. you just didn't work at it as much being less involved. Less investment/risk.. less reward. Also.. unfortunately, M3's are far too common here where I live to actually want one.. and then (where I live, also) there's the issue of the people who often drive them.
So I bought it. When I took the Z4M home.. I loathed the rubbery box-of-rocks like shifting action and the somewhat dis-synchronous relationships the controls have. I also recognized that the camber could possibly be better dialed and the rear shocks seemed far too highly sprung (perhaps to make up for the extra weight of the Iron block vs the std aluminum engine). Also, stock tires were not good, of course. All of this seemed to be due to the short development period M took with the Z4 version. I think they got the soul of the car right, but just ran out of time when it came to the details.. and you can't have a lot of rough edges to get a recommendation from today's auto press overseas.
However, replacing the clutch delay valve.. getting a clutch stop, proper solid shift knob which isn't the terrible plastic one.. and doing a little sorting on the suspension and some good tires.. then the car becomes imperfectly fantastic. You'd have to be absolutely soul-less not to love it at this point.
As far as my opinion about the looks - pure bada$$ery for the money. The Z3M (a car I originally wanted for it's quirky looks but literally could not fit into it without knees nearly clamping on the wheel) might have a more predictable back end on the throttle.. but to me it felt far less refined - like the best handling teutonic small pick-up truck ever made. Despite its cult following, as second-hand, the Z3M feels and looks as if it should be half the price of a well-sorted Z4M. Also.. while I appreciate its character with its swollen wheel housings from the rear 3qtr view.. from most other angles it's precariously reminiscent to something I've seen penned in SNL shorts by Robert Smigel.. and that's not a good thing.
If you actually do need space in your sports car.. yes, the M3 is better. I also will say the build quality of mine is not the best, though the quality of most the individual components is (..namely the engine).
All that said.. next stop hopefully a 2010-11 GT3 (..some day). A very sexy librarian.
I work in special fx in Los Angeles. I bought mine after test driving as many cars in its range and purpose as I could. I'm currently not tracking it (which is just not convenient for me at the moment), but I've done some karting, taken some driving classes and have experience pushing some fast cars to extremes in controlled environments. I've been relatively car-crazed all my life. Some of the best years of my life were being at Art Center College of Design in the automotive program.. connecting with long lost brethren I never knew existed until then.
About the Cayman/Cayman S - I really wanted to like it when it came out. I drove it several times (8-9/10 hard) and I must agree in what's been said about all its accomplished traits; so easy to manage being balanced like an old brass top and with such silky well-weighted controls - you feel like you're mixing with some affordable pedigree. However, I was also pretty bored. It's the old cliche' about dating the librarian. She can politely recite all sorts of detailed history to you, but ultimately, as far as driving experience.. you want more. You want to be with that mischievous one sitting in the back of the cafe wearing Persol knock-off's and the ink of a dragon's tail climbing up the side of her neck. She's not dumb.. just a little sassy and lacking some finishing school. Dad wasn't quite all the way there for her.. but his good genes are. That's the Z4M. Cayman? Maybe if your safety depends on it. If you're tracking hard every day and your looking for a reliably predictable partner.. that is what you want. I however wanted something a little more exciting for my weekends.
I also drove an M46 competition. I liked it, but to me, this car doesn't feel fast. In comparison, perhaps the extra weight and slower reactions (wagging trunk and more centered seating position, perhaps) dulls the experience somewhat. Like having one more drink than usual so you take the escalator rather than stairs. You still get to where you're going feeling good.. relaxed.. you just didn't work at it as much being less involved. Less investment/risk.. less reward. Also.. unfortunately, M3's are far too common here where I live to actually want one.. and then (where I live, also) there's the issue of the people who often drive them.
So I bought it. When I took the Z4M home.. I loathed the rubbery box-of-rocks like shifting action and the somewhat dis-synchronous relationships the controls have. I also recognized that the camber could possibly be better dialed and the rear shocks seemed far too highly sprung (perhaps to make up for the extra weight of the Iron block vs the std aluminum engine). Also, stock tires were not good, of course. All of this seemed to be due to the short development period M took with the Z4 version. I think they got the soul of the car right, but just ran out of time when it came to the details.. and you can't have a lot of rough edges to get a recommendation from today's auto press overseas.
However, replacing the clutch delay valve.. getting a clutch stop, proper solid shift knob which isn't the terrible plastic one.. and doing a little sorting on the suspension and some good tires.. then the car becomes imperfectly fantastic. You'd have to be absolutely soul-less not to love it at this point.
As far as my opinion about the looks - pure bada$$ery for the money. The Z3M (a car I originally wanted for it's quirky looks but literally could not fit into it without knees nearly clamping on the wheel) might have a more predictable back end on the throttle.. but to me it felt far less refined - like the best handling teutonic small pick-up truck ever made. Despite its cult following, as second-hand, the Z3M feels and looks as if it should be half the price of a well-sorted Z4M. Also.. while I appreciate its character with its swollen wheel housings from the rear 3qtr view.. from most other angles it's precariously reminiscent to something I've seen penned in SNL shorts by Robert Smigel.. and that's not a good thing.
If you actually do need space in your sports car.. yes, the M3 is better. I also will say the build quality of mine is not the best, though the quality of most the individual components is (..namely the engine).
All that said.. next stop hopefully a 2010-11 GT3 (..some day). A very sexy librarian.
Edited by jwh9 on Saturday 8th September 02:59
Alright CH, (I love your vid's and articles btw.. a lot) many people love to write this car off and that's fine with me because I (among other things) am enjoying it for it's relative rarity. Perhaps most (journalists included) get hung up on a few things and then don't take too much time to find out what's really there. Credit due, however.. I know most writers try to fairly appraise what's presented to them in the limited time they have (except for those who enjoy too much a lazy spin in a lardy Mercedes). Anyways.. you and most everyone here on this thread need no points from me, so let me address this to the future uninitiated on PH..
I work in special fx in Los Angeles. I bought mine after test driving as many cars in its range and purpose as I could. I'm currently not tracking it (which is just not convenient for me at the moment), but I've done some karting, taken some driving classes and have experience pushing some fast cars to extremes in controlled environments. I've been relatively car-crazed all my life. Some of the best years of my life were being at Art Center College of Design in the automotive program.. connecting with long lost brethren I never knew existed until then.
About the Cayman/Cayman S - I really wanted to like it when it came out. I drove it several times (8-9/10 hard) and I must agree in what's been said about all its accomplished traits; so easy to manage being balanced like an old brass top and with such silky well-weighted controls - you feel like you're mixing with some affordable pedigree. However, I was also pretty bored. It's the old cliche' about dating the librarian. She can politely recite all sorts of detailed history to you, but ultimately, as far as driving experience.. you want more. You want to be with that mischievous one sitting in the back of the cafe wearing Persol knock-off's and the ink of a dragon's tail climbing up the side of her neck. She's not dumb.. just a little sassy and lacking some finishing school. Dad wasn't quite all the way there for her.. but his good genes are. That's the Z4M. Cayman? Maybe if your safety depends on it. If you're tracking hard every day and your looking for a reliably predictable partner.. that is what you want. I however wanted something a little more exciting for my weekends.
I also drove an M46 competition. I liked it, but to me, this car doesn't feel fast. In comparison, perhaps the extra weight and slower reactions (wagging trunk and more centered seating position, perhaps) dulls the experience somewhat. Like having one more drink than usual so you take the escalator rather than stairs. You still get to where you're going feeling good.. relaxed.. you just didn't work at it as much being less involved. Less investment/risk.. less reward. Also.. unfortunately, M3's are far too common here where I live to actually want one.. and then (where I live, also) there's the issue of the people who often drive them.
So I bought it. When I took the Z4M home.. I loathed the rubbery box-of-rocks like shifting action and the somewhat dis-synchronous relationships the controls have. I also recognized that the camber could possibly be better dialed and the rear shocks seemed far too highly sprung (perhaps to make up for the extra weight of the Iron block vs the std aluminum engine). Also, stock tires were not good, of course. All of this seemed to be due to the short development period M took with the Z4 version. I think they got the soul of the car right, but just ran out of time when it came to the details.. and you can't have a lot of rough edges to get a recommendation from today's auto press overseas.
However, replacing the clutch delay valve.. getting a clutch stop, proper solid shift knob which isn't the terrible plastic one.. and doing a little sorting on the suspension and some good tires.. then the car becomes imperfectly fantastic. You'd have to be absolutely soul-less not to love it at this point.
As far as my opinion about the looks - pure bada$$ery for the money. The Z3M (a car I originally wanted for it's quirky looks but literally could not fit into it without knees nearly clamping on the wheel) might have a more predictable back end on the throttle.. but to me it felt far less refined - like the best handling teutonic small pick-up truck ever made. Despite its cult following, as second-hand, the Z3M feels and looks as if it should be half the price of a well-sorted Z4M. Also.. while I appreciate its character with its swollen wheel housings from the rear 3qtr view.. from most other angles it's precariously reminiscent to something I've seen penned in SNL shorts by Robert Smigel.. and that's not a good thing.
If you actually do need space in your sports car.. yes, the M3 is better. I'll also say the build quality of stateside Z4's is not the best, though the quality of most the individual components is, of course (..namely the engine).
All that said.. next stop hopefully a 2010-11 GT3 (..some day). A very sexy librarian.
I work in special fx in Los Angeles. I bought mine after test driving as many cars in its range and purpose as I could. I'm currently not tracking it (which is just not convenient for me at the moment), but I've done some karting, taken some driving classes and have experience pushing some fast cars to extremes in controlled environments. I've been relatively car-crazed all my life. Some of the best years of my life were being at Art Center College of Design in the automotive program.. connecting with long lost brethren I never knew existed until then.
About the Cayman/Cayman S - I really wanted to like it when it came out. I drove it several times (8-9/10 hard) and I must agree in what's been said about all its accomplished traits; so easy to manage being balanced like an old brass top and with such silky well-weighted controls - you feel like you're mixing with some affordable pedigree. However, I was also pretty bored. It's the old cliche' about dating the librarian. She can politely recite all sorts of detailed history to you, but ultimately, as far as driving experience.. you want more. You want to be with that mischievous one sitting in the back of the cafe wearing Persol knock-off's and the ink of a dragon's tail climbing up the side of her neck. She's not dumb.. just a little sassy and lacking some finishing school. Dad wasn't quite all the way there for her.. but his good genes are. That's the Z4M. Cayman? Maybe if your safety depends on it. If you're tracking hard every day and your looking for a reliably predictable partner.. that is what you want. I however wanted something a little more exciting for my weekends.
I also drove an M46 competition. I liked it, but to me, this car doesn't feel fast. In comparison, perhaps the extra weight and slower reactions (wagging trunk and more centered seating position, perhaps) dulls the experience somewhat. Like having one more drink than usual so you take the escalator rather than stairs. You still get to where you're going feeling good.. relaxed.. you just didn't work at it as much being less involved. Less investment/risk.. less reward. Also.. unfortunately, M3's are far too common here where I live to actually want one.. and then (where I live, also) there's the issue of the people who often drive them.
So I bought it. When I took the Z4M home.. I loathed the rubbery box-of-rocks like shifting action and the somewhat dis-synchronous relationships the controls have. I also recognized that the camber could possibly be better dialed and the rear shocks seemed far too highly sprung (perhaps to make up for the extra weight of the Iron block vs the std aluminum engine). Also, stock tires were not good, of course. All of this seemed to be due to the short development period M took with the Z4 version. I think they got the soul of the car right, but just ran out of time when it came to the details.. and you can't have a lot of rough edges to get a recommendation from today's auto press overseas.
However, replacing the clutch delay valve.. getting a clutch stop, proper solid shift knob which isn't the terrible plastic one.. and doing a little sorting on the suspension and some good tires.. then the car becomes imperfectly fantastic. You'd have to be absolutely soul-less not to love it at this point.
As far as my opinion about the looks - pure bada$$ery for the money. The Z3M (a car I originally wanted for it's quirky looks but literally could not fit into it without knees nearly clamping on the wheel) might have a more predictable back end on the throttle.. but to me it felt far less refined - like the best handling teutonic small pick-up truck ever made. Despite its cult following, as second-hand, the Z3M feels and looks as if it should be half the price of a well-sorted Z4M. Also.. while I appreciate its character with its swollen wheel housings from the rear 3qtr view.. from most other angles it's precariously reminiscent to something I've seen penned in SNL shorts by Robert Smigel.. and that's not a good thing.
If you actually do need space in your sports car.. yes, the M3 is better. I'll also say the build quality of stateside Z4's is not the best, though the quality of most the individual components is, of course (..namely the engine).
All that said.. next stop hopefully a 2010-11 GT3 (..some day). A very sexy librarian.
Edited by jwh9 on Saturday 8th September 02:58
Edited by jwh9 on Saturday 8th September 03:03
I had my Z4m for about a year (about as long as I've ever owned a car), bought it at about 6 months/1 year old, ex BMW management owned so came with all the toys. I don't regret the experience in the slightest but I would never recommend one to anyone.
I thought (and still think) it is one of those of the most beautiful cars of the modern day.
I also believe that the end of line 343hp 3.2 straight six with its 'dry sump', direct injection and other features is probably the best 3.2 ltr engine that was ever been built. It sounds great, is stupidly economical, particularly when driven very hard (compared with VAG engines etc). It has torque everywhere and yet produces maximum power at 7900rpm meaning it just loves to be rung out to the red line.
In the Z4 it feels somehow better than in the E46 m3 because the car is lighter and it can rev out more freely and break traction a lot more easily.
I also loved the ridiculous ability even as a completely factory standard car, to sit at insane angles. Most cars get to a certain angle of slide and then seem to pivot around some invisible axis and there is nothing you can do to prevent it swapping ends. The Z4 just never seems to hit this point, I could swear at times I was actually over 90% looking back at the inside of the bend at an angle that made no sense to forward progression.. yet the car would continue on around the bend and flick back to reveal the exit as soon as you eased off the throttle.
Unfortunately these qualities did not save from the fact that inherently this car was NOT your friend. It was, like no car I've known, constantly plotting your demise. When you were on top of it and driving hard the car kept you alert in a non blinking state, ready to catch any flick, twist or wobbly it might through at you at three digit speeds. You can even see it do this on the best motoring race where it lurches violently to 90% in the hands of Japan's finest and he only just catches the damn thing! Watching it just brings back a flood of memories.
However it was at the 7,8 /10th's mark that the car really wanted to kill you. Just when you thought you were safe, it was moving around a bit but happily inside the grip limits and you relax into a state of smooth flowing inputs and then one day on a corner you've driven 100 times at the same speed it decides to flick violently, not just at the rear but it used to drive the nose with it.. forcing you to use up a lot of space to recover the slide.
I eventually put it down to a combination of a very smooth barely detectable break away from traction, so that sometimes you only notice the rear wheels have started to spin when the rev counter was climbing slightly too fast (which can be too late), and the lack of security in the front end. Some cars like the 944 will happily wag their tails all day long without unsettling the ability of the front wheels to control direction. The Z4m used to push out the nose of the car in the direction of the slide, forcing you to consume a large area (which you do not always have) to regain control.
I thought (and still think) it is one of those of the most beautiful cars of the modern day.
I also believe that the end of line 343hp 3.2 straight six with its 'dry sump', direct injection and other features is probably the best 3.2 ltr engine that was ever been built. It sounds great, is stupidly economical, particularly when driven very hard (compared with VAG engines etc). It has torque everywhere and yet produces maximum power at 7900rpm meaning it just loves to be rung out to the red line.
In the Z4 it feels somehow better than in the E46 m3 because the car is lighter and it can rev out more freely and break traction a lot more easily.
I also loved the ridiculous ability even as a completely factory standard car, to sit at insane angles. Most cars get to a certain angle of slide and then seem to pivot around some invisible axis and there is nothing you can do to prevent it swapping ends. The Z4 just never seems to hit this point, I could swear at times I was actually over 90% looking back at the inside of the bend at an angle that made no sense to forward progression.. yet the car would continue on around the bend and flick back to reveal the exit as soon as you eased off the throttle.
Unfortunately these qualities did not save from the fact that inherently this car was NOT your friend. It was, like no car I've known, constantly plotting your demise. When you were on top of it and driving hard the car kept you alert in a non blinking state, ready to catch any flick, twist or wobbly it might through at you at three digit speeds. You can even see it do this on the best motoring race where it lurches violently to 90% in the hands of Japan's finest and he only just catches the damn thing! Watching it just brings back a flood of memories.
However it was at the 7,8 /10th's mark that the car really wanted to kill you. Just when you thought you were safe, it was moving around a bit but happily inside the grip limits and you relax into a state of smooth flowing inputs and then one day on a corner you've driven 100 times at the same speed it decides to flick violently, not just at the rear but it used to drive the nose with it.. forcing you to use up a lot of space to recover the slide.
I eventually put it down to a combination of a very smooth barely detectable break away from traction, so that sometimes you only notice the rear wheels have started to spin when the rev counter was climbing slightly too fast (which can be too late), and the lack of security in the front end. Some cars like the 944 will happily wag their tails all day long without unsettling the ability of the front wheels to control direction. The Z4m used to push out the nose of the car in the direction of the slide, forcing you to consume a large area (which you do not always have) to regain control.
I kind of agree with you CH. I owned 2 Z3 M Coupes and loved them despite the suspension short comings. Also owned M3's both 6 and 8 cylinders' these were terrific cars you could use everyday..... Last year I decided to buy a used Z4 M Coupe...... It looks, and sounds terrific, it's plenty fast enough, but I've never really fallen for it.
I'm sure in 20 years I'll regret it, but I think I'm going to sell it, and look for an alternative weekend play thing. Not quite sure what I'll replace it with..... There really isn't anything as distinctive for similar money.
If anyone is interested make me an offer, 1 previous owner, 25k miles, Interlagos blue, unmarked wheels and body. Full BMWSH. BMW warranty until End Nov..... New brakes and tyres.... To get an equivalent 911 I'll need to double the budget!
Decisions, decisions.......
I'm sure in 20 years I'll regret it, but I think I'm going to sell it, and look for an alternative weekend play thing. Not quite sure what I'll replace it with..... There really isn't anything as distinctive for similar money.
If anyone is interested make me an offer, 1 previous owner, 25k miles, Interlagos blue, unmarked wheels and body. Full BMWSH. BMW warranty until End Nov..... New brakes and tyres.... To get an equivalent 911 I'll need to double the budget!
Decisions, decisions.......
One of the benefits with the 3.0si is that by fitting non-runflats you instantly get a car with more grip & less spiky handling which is a lot more predictable on the limit than the M.
Combined with a DTC setting on the traction control and 100kg less weight than the M, the 3.0 does have benefits in other areas. Admittedly the (electric) steering isn't as feelsome - but can be improved with some polyurethane bushes - it is linear though.
The engine whilst lacking some of the top end sparkle of the M does pull hard from about 4500k onwards and still sounds great up at the top end. Also lots of pops and bangs on the overrun. For an everyday car i think it works better. As a weekend car I'd probably have an M with a greater sense of occasion.
Chris - What's the chance of revisiting the coupes with an article? Comparing the 2 models and a 3.0si with normal tyres. Judging by the response to this article, I'm sure there would be a fair bit of PH interest..?
Combined with a DTC setting on the traction control and 100kg less weight than the M, the 3.0 does have benefits in other areas. Admittedly the (electric) steering isn't as feelsome - but can be improved with some polyurethane bushes - it is linear though.
The engine whilst lacking some of the top end sparkle of the M does pull hard from about 4500k onwards and still sounds great up at the top end. Also lots of pops and bangs on the overrun. For an everyday car i think it works better. As a weekend car I'd probably have an M with a greater sense of occasion.
Chris - What's the chance of revisiting the coupes with an article? Comparing the 2 models and a 3.0si with normal tyres. Judging by the response to this article, I'm sure there would be a fair bit of PH interest..?
It is very easy to get defensive when you own the car, but if i'm honest i agree with you (In part) I've owned my Z4M since Jan 09. I've done over 25k miles in it. I think it's questionaby the best looking coupe on the market, only the AMV8 toppping it!
My main gripes are as follows:
Suspension and ride quality, made worse by the CSL's, but they look significantly better
The highly strung S54, useless in town (95% of m daily driving)
The reliability, yank made, the build quality really is poor
Rubbish gearbox.
When i bought it, i considered the Cayman, but it was 5k more and i couldn't shake that poor man's Porsche image. Not sure what i'd buy next, something with DCT/DSG etc.
I've never jelled with the Z4M...But it is a good car for the money when all things are considered.
My main gripes are as follows:
Suspension and ride quality, made worse by the CSL's, but they look significantly better
The highly strung S54, useless in town (95% of m daily driving)
The reliability, yank made, the build quality really is poor
Rubbish gearbox.
When i bought it, i considered the Cayman, but it was 5k more and i couldn't shake that poor man's Porsche image. Not sure what i'd buy next, something with DCT/DSG etc.
I've never jelled with the Z4M...But it is a good car for the money when all things are considered.
jwh9 said:
However, replacing the clutch delay valve.. getting a clutch stop, proper solid shift knob which isn't the terrible plastic one.. and doing a little sorting on the suspension and some good tires.. then the car becomes imperfectly fantastic. You'd have to be absolutely soul-less not to love it at this point.
I agree on these kinds of points.So many cars these days have stupid default stuff, and anyone buying a car like this who cares WILL change that stuff.
So it's silly to judge these cars as they came from the factory when considering them as a car for a car nut to buy/own/enjoy!
But I still think most of the Z4's appeal is that it has no roof. The Coupe does look cool but unfortunately when you get inside then it's a rather dingy place to be.
Dave
I've never owned a full blown M of any distinction but currently have a 2002 Z3 M sport in Estoril blue which i've owned for 3 year. It's a ridiculously pretty yet meaty looking "little" car, has a lovely sounding straight six which pops and burbles to the point that it constantly makes me smile but...i've been toying with the idea of "moving on". I've looked at Boxsters, SLK's etc, the things that i feel are comparable and too be honest, for sheer looks, they look so flat and dull compared to the Z4M! I will admit that i really wanted/want another convertible but there are so many Z4 convertibles out there that they seem really common; if you look at cars for sale there are always 6-7 times the amount of Z4's out there compared to my Z3, from that perspective the Z3 is much more rare and dare i say because of that, a little more special.
The only car that i've had any real "want" for of late is the Z4M Coupe, they just look so f'ing cool! Look on Youtube and after seeing a Z4M coupe with CSL wheels and a body in Alpine White with the black carbon wrap roof (and lower front spoiler), i dare you not to want one!! Yes, i'm sure the car has issue and ride/handling are not to everyones taste but these things can be changed/fixed and what you'll end up with is a "real world" fast car that is semi rare, will eventually go up in value rather than down and on the road looks purposeful, sleek and just a little bit individual, don't think that can be said of the Boxster or the SLK.....I want one
The only car that i've had any real "want" for of late is the Z4M Coupe, they just look so f'ing cool! Look on Youtube and after seeing a Z4M coupe with CSL wheels and a body in Alpine White with the black carbon wrap roof (and lower front spoiler), i dare you not to want one!! Yes, i'm sure the car has issue and ride/handling are not to everyones taste but these things can be changed/fixed and what you'll end up with is a "real world" fast car that is semi rare, will eventually go up in value rather than down and on the road looks purposeful, sleek and just a little bit individual, don't think that can be said of the Boxster or the SLK.....I want one
jwh9 said:
Alright CH, (I love your vid's and articles btw.. a lot) many people love to write this car off and that's fine with me because I (among other things) am enjoying it for it's relative rarity. Perhaps most (journalists included) get hung up on a few things and then don't take too much time to find out what's really there. Credit due, however.. I know most writers try to fairly appraise what's presented to them in the limited time they have (except for those who enjoy too much a lazy spin in a lardy Mercedes). Anyways.. you and most everyone here on this thread need no points from me, so let me address this to the future uninitiated on PH..
I work in special fx in Los Angeles. I bought mine after test driving as many cars in its range and purpose as I could. I'm currently not tracking it (which is just not convenient for me at the moment), but I've done some karting, taken some driving classes and have experience pushing some fast cars to extremes in controlled environments. I've been relatively car-crazed all my life. Some of the best years of my life were being at Art Center College of Design in the automotive program.. connecting with long lost brethren I never knew existed until then.
About the Cayman/Cayman S - I really wanted to like it when it came out. I drove it several times (8-9/10 hard) and I must agree in what's been said about all its accomplished traits; so easy to manage being balanced like an old brass top and with such silky well-weighted controls - you feel like you're mixing with some affordable pedigree. However, I was also pretty bored. It's the old cliche' about dating the librarian. She can politely recite all sorts of detailed history to you, but ultimately, as far as driving experience.. you want more. You want to be with that mischievous one sitting in the back of the cafe wearing Persol knock-off's and the ink of a dragon's tail climbing up the side of her neck. She's not dumb.. just a little sassy and lacking some finishing school. Dad wasn't quite all the way there for her.. but his good genes are. That's the Z4M. Cayman? Maybe if your safety depends on it. If you're tracking hard every day and your looking for a reliably predictable partner.. that is what you want. I however wanted something a little more exciting for my weekends.
I also drove an M46 competition. I liked it, but to me, this car doesn't feel fast. In comparison, perhaps the extra weight and slower reactions (wagging trunk and more centered seating position, perhaps) dulls the experience somewhat. Like having one more drink than usual so you take the escalator rather than stairs. You still get to where you're going feeling good.. relaxed.. you just didn't work at it as much being less involved. Less investment/risk.. less reward. Also.. unfortunately, M3's are far too common here where I live to actually want one.. and then (where I live, also) there's the issue of the people who often drive them.
So I bought it. When I took the Z4M home.. I loathed the rubbery box-of-rocks like shifting action and the somewhat dis-synchronous relationships the controls have. I also recognized that the camber could possibly be better dialed and the rear shocks seemed far too highly sprung (perhaps to make up for the extra weight of the Iron block vs the std aluminum engine). Also, stock tires were not good, of course. All of this seemed to be due to the short development period M took with the Z4 version. I think they got the soul of the car right, but just ran out of time when it came to the details.. and you can't have a lot of rough edges to get a recommendation from today's auto press overseas.
However, replacing the clutch delay valve.. getting a clutch stop, proper solid shift knob which isn't the terrible plastic one.. and doing a little sorting on the suspension and some good tires.. then the car becomes imperfectly fantastic. You'd have to be absolutely soul-less not to love it at this point.
As far as my opinion about the looks - pure bada$$ery for the money. The Z3M (a car I originally wanted for it's quirky looks but literally could not fit into it without knees nearly clamping on the wheel) might have a more predictable back end on the throttle.. but to me it felt far less refined - like the best handling teutonic small pick-up truck ever made. Despite its cult following, as second-hand, the Z3M feels and looks as if it should be half the price of a well-sorted Z4M. Also.. while I appreciate its character with its swollen wheel housings from the rear 3qtr view.. from most other angles it's precariously reminiscent to something I've seen penned in SNL shorts by Robert Smigel.. and that's not a good thing.
If you actually do need space in your sports car.. yes, the M3 is better. I also will say the build quality of mine is not the best, though the quality of most the individual components is (..namely the engine).
All that said.. next stop hopefully a 2010-11 GT3 (..some day). A very sexy librarian.
love your honest reply. I think I now know why I hated it so much. It was rubbish right out of the box. Poor gear shift, clutch that judders, heavy "feel"less steering, stiff rear suspension, grabby on/off brakes, rubbish stock tires and stupid sport button. Other than looking good and being unique, this was a very average car. I understand that lots of owners change out the wheels for CSL, fit different springs, install a better shift knob, a clutch stop, strut bar and all manner of mods to make the car drive better. In the end, they may end up with a better car. At least no one is complaining about mods turning out badly on the car (ever). But, you hit 1 point on the head, no modern auto journo gives much love if the manufacturer can't get it right out of the box and needs the aftermarket to fix the flaws. I didn't go down the aftermarket route and ditched the car after 6 months. I work in special fx in Los Angeles. I bought mine after test driving as many cars in its range and purpose as I could. I'm currently not tracking it (which is just not convenient for me at the moment), but I've done some karting, taken some driving classes and have experience pushing some fast cars to extremes in controlled environments. I've been relatively car-crazed all my life. Some of the best years of my life were being at Art Center College of Design in the automotive program.. connecting with long lost brethren I never knew existed until then.
About the Cayman/Cayman S - I really wanted to like it when it came out. I drove it several times (8-9/10 hard) and I must agree in what's been said about all its accomplished traits; so easy to manage being balanced like an old brass top and with such silky well-weighted controls - you feel like you're mixing with some affordable pedigree. However, I was also pretty bored. It's the old cliche' about dating the librarian. She can politely recite all sorts of detailed history to you, but ultimately, as far as driving experience.. you want more. You want to be with that mischievous one sitting in the back of the cafe wearing Persol knock-off's and the ink of a dragon's tail climbing up the side of her neck. She's not dumb.. just a little sassy and lacking some finishing school. Dad wasn't quite all the way there for her.. but his good genes are. That's the Z4M. Cayman? Maybe if your safety depends on it. If you're tracking hard every day and your looking for a reliably predictable partner.. that is what you want. I however wanted something a little more exciting for my weekends.
I also drove an M46 competition. I liked it, but to me, this car doesn't feel fast. In comparison, perhaps the extra weight and slower reactions (wagging trunk and more centered seating position, perhaps) dulls the experience somewhat. Like having one more drink than usual so you take the escalator rather than stairs. You still get to where you're going feeling good.. relaxed.. you just didn't work at it as much being less involved. Less investment/risk.. less reward. Also.. unfortunately, M3's are far too common here where I live to actually want one.. and then (where I live, also) there's the issue of the people who often drive them.
So I bought it. When I took the Z4M home.. I loathed the rubbery box-of-rocks like shifting action and the somewhat dis-synchronous relationships the controls have. I also recognized that the camber could possibly be better dialed and the rear shocks seemed far too highly sprung (perhaps to make up for the extra weight of the Iron block vs the std aluminum engine). Also, stock tires were not good, of course. All of this seemed to be due to the short development period M took with the Z4 version. I think they got the soul of the car right, but just ran out of time when it came to the details.. and you can't have a lot of rough edges to get a recommendation from today's auto press overseas.
However, replacing the clutch delay valve.. getting a clutch stop, proper solid shift knob which isn't the terrible plastic one.. and doing a little sorting on the suspension and some good tires.. then the car becomes imperfectly fantastic. You'd have to be absolutely soul-less not to love it at this point.
As far as my opinion about the looks - pure bada$$ery for the money. The Z3M (a car I originally wanted for it's quirky looks but literally could not fit into it without knees nearly clamping on the wheel) might have a more predictable back end on the throttle.. but to me it felt far less refined - like the best handling teutonic small pick-up truck ever made. Despite its cult following, as second-hand, the Z3M feels and looks as if it should be half the price of a well-sorted Z4M. Also.. while I appreciate its character with its swollen wheel housings from the rear 3qtr view.. from most other angles it's precariously reminiscent to something I've seen penned in SNL shorts by Robert Smigel.. and that's not a good thing.
If you actually do need space in your sports car.. yes, the M3 is better. I also will say the build quality of mine is not the best, though the quality of most the individual components is (..namely the engine).
All that said.. next stop hopefully a 2010-11 GT3 (..some day). A very sexy librarian.
Edited by jwh9 on Saturday 8th September 02:59
I do have 1 thing to say though. The Gt3 is a good choice. You don't have to mod a thing - porsches come out of the factory perfect. zero mods required, only smiles.
kis said:
err...some total rubish being put about here - below is a best motoring video of the z4mc pulling a cayman's pants down in the soaking wet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJG1eyoVMW0
btw - pls check out the z4mc's magnificent drift at around 8:00...some people can drive...others blame spikey handling and a stiff suspension etc
That is brilliant. I love mine and couldn't give a monkey's what anyone else thinks!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJG1eyoVMW0
btw - pls check out the z4mc's magnificent drift at around 8:00...some people can drive...others blame spikey handling and a stiff suspension etc
I think Chris is trying to do a Jeremy Clarkson trick here of trying to be objectionable with bold statements but when you look at the detail, his summary quite as bold as the opening statements.
If someone doesn't like the look of a car then that is their opinion. I may have the same view of their wife and I don't have to sleep with her.
Re comments bout understeer, anyone who has owned one of these will know how susceptible these cars are to poor handling when tyre pressures are not right. Incorrect tyre pressures induce all kind of nasty characteristics such as understeer and unpredictable bouncing around of the rear end. An M technician at Batemans took time out to demonstrate this to me.
One point about the MC that is misunderstood about the car is that the design ethos behind it is that it is supposed to feel like a 60s supercar and it doe this very well for relative little cost. There are many challenges to driving an MC well and part of the pleasure is mastering these.
The first owner of my car paid £48k 5 years ago and that was a lot of money for a car with a Z4 badge on it (well OK, it doesn't actually have any Z4 badges but you get my point). That price kept the cars exclusive but these days the cars are holding their value well and offer a lot of fun for not a huge amount of money.
If someone doesn't like the look of a car then that is their opinion. I may have the same view of their wife and I don't have to sleep with her.
Re comments bout understeer, anyone who has owned one of these will know how susceptible these cars are to poor handling when tyre pressures are not right. Incorrect tyre pressures induce all kind of nasty characteristics such as understeer and unpredictable bouncing around of the rear end. An M technician at Batemans took time out to demonstrate this to me.
One point about the MC that is misunderstood about the car is that the design ethos behind it is that it is supposed to feel like a 60s supercar and it doe this very well for relative little cost. There are many challenges to driving an MC well and part of the pleasure is mastering these.
The first owner of my car paid £48k 5 years ago and that was a lot of money for a car with a Z4 badge on it (well OK, it doesn't actually have any Z4 badges but you get my point). That price kept the cars exclusive but these days the cars are holding their value well and offer a lot of fun for not a huge amount of money.
EVO magazine slated it in the group 'M' car tests.
Is everyone else incorrect?
Also the thought of spending an extra £2-3K (Wheels/springs/tyres/strutbrace/4-wheel alignment) on a £45K car to get it to handle correctly seems paradoxical.
This is not about turning it into a track car, but into a predictable road car
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EVO-magazine-11-07-feat-...
Is everyone else incorrect?
Also the thought of spending an extra £2-3K (Wheels/springs/tyres/strutbrace/4-wheel alignment) on a £45K car to get it to handle correctly seems paradoxical.
This is not about turning it into a track car, but into a predictable road car
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EVO-magazine-11-07-feat-...
sennasurgeon said:
Also the thought of spending an extra £2-3K (Wheels/springs/tyres/strutbrace/4-wheel alignment) on a £45K car to get it to handle correctly seems paradoxical.
What's to say how it drives isn't 'correct'? I'm with a lot of others here - the car certainly isn't perfect. In a way, that's the charm. You don't spend days learning how to drive it, you spend weeks, or months.I'll agree that sometimes, you simply want a predictable road car, as you've said. Sometimes, just one more skip when taking a corner will drive you to look at another car... I did. When I had my 3.0si Coupe, I test drove the Cayman S. It was absolutely fantastic, and far easier to drive fast; but I still got out of the car thinking it should have had more sense of occasion. Something was missing. It felt slower than my 3.0si, not faster. That's before we even mention that (to me) the Z4 Coupe is simply one of a kind to look at.
I'd wager that a Z4M Coupe has far more chance of becoming a future 'classic' than the Cayman S ever does; because of this.
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