RE: PH poll: best hot hatch
Discussion
TEKNOPUG said:
The Delta HF Turbo was a 1.6 8v FWD - a "hot hatch". The EVO was a 2.0 16v 4WD rally-bred car
Right, I think you need to take a look at the naming here.Delta 1.6GT
Delta 1.6GT ie
Delta HF Turbo (138bhp)
Delta HF 4WD (165bhp)
Delta HF Integrale (185bhp)
Note all models are Delta's, the Inegrale is not a separate model it is still a Delta.
Also you can't really say the 1.6GT is a hot hatch and the HF Turbo isn't. The HF Turbo is the same car but with a turbo engine. The HF 4WD is a HF Turbo but with 4WD. The Integrale is just a tweaked HF 4WD, in fact these tweaks:
This version incorporated the following improvements over the HF 4WD:
-New valves
-valve seats
-water pump
-larger water and oil radiators
-more powerful cooling fan
-bigger air cleaner
-larger capacity Garrett T3 turbocharger
-bigger inter-cooler
-revised settings for the electronic injection/ignition control unit and a knock sensor
To me that doesn't sound like a radically different car, in fact it doesn't even sound like a different car at all, just a tweaked variation on existing parts.
Snippet from Wiki:
Wiki said:
Integrale 8v
1989 Lancia Delta HF Integrale 8V at the Birmingham Motorshow Lancia designed the HF Integrale to incorporate the advanced technical features of the Delta HF 4WD, and to address its shortcomings as a rally car. The result is a stylish, luxurious yet utterly practical five door hatchback with impeccable road manners
After the 8v the 16v was introduced. But that's hardly a radical change either when all else remained pretty much as is.1989 Lancia Delta HF Integrale 8V at the Birmingham Motorshow Lancia designed the HF Integrale to incorporate the advanced technical features of the Delta HF 4WD, and to address its shortcomings as a rally car. The result is a stylish, luxurious yet utterly practical five door hatchback with impeccable road manners
The Evo only really introduced a wider track and facelifted bumpers/grill. Ok the wider track enhanced handling, but the chassis and engine remained the same. Don't some Clio's have a wider track too?
The Evo II wasn't actually rallied, so technically not for homologation. But the only real change was some revision to the engine and a three-way catalyst and Lambda probe. The basic engine structure and chassis still remained. So again how is this not just a fast Delta?
TEKNOPUG said:
It sold 44,000 units worldwide? The 205 sold 66,000 units just in the UK!
Yet Renault only sold 12,100 Clio Williams in total, so is that not a hot hatch? Also that's 44,000 Integrales. Total Delta sales would evidently be a lot higher than Integrale sales on their own.TEKNOPUG said:
It isn't a "hot hatch" - it maybe a hatchback that is fast but it fails on too many criteria to be considered a "hot hatch".
ok humour me, please list in bullet form the exact criteria it fails on?Sorry 300bhp ton, I'd have to agree with other posters. The Integrale is not a hot hatch or at least I definately wouldn't class it as such and neither is an Escort Cosworth, they are rally reps which are a step above the hot hatch class so placing them in the hot hatch category is like putting a Ferrari Spyder in the same class as an MX-5 because they are both 2 seater convertibles.
The 323ti never made it to the UK, so I guess that's why it had no love. The 325ti is as close as it gets.
The Delta argument is a subjective one - I've driven several (1.3, 1.5, GT, Integrale) and they were all awful. Some of them were even fairly new at the time. My mum had a Fiat Regata 100S that was a nicer drive. My brother had a Prisma (before his Dedra) that was an awful drive too.
The 309 GTI deserves to be higher (so does the Strada 130TC) but I am biased ;-)
The Delta argument is a subjective one - I've driven several (1.3, 1.5, GT, Integrale) and they were all awful. Some of them were even fairly new at the time. My mum had a Fiat Regata 100S that was a nicer drive. My brother had a Prisma (before his Dedra) that was an awful drive too.
The 309 GTI deserves to be higher (so does the Strada 130TC) but I am biased ;-)
heightswitch said:
We are talking era's here but many on this forum will recognise the era I am talking about...
I don't recognise a lot of cars being classed as a hot hatch on the list.. The era of the hot hatch started with the Golf Gti, there were earlier hatchbacks, but they weren,t HOT !
Golf Gti was brilliant , well made, fast but a touch portly compared to some of the imposters that came along later..I think people also forget how expensive they were in their day which created a 2 tiered clique of hatch drivers.
Your wealthier middle class lot had the GTi Golf whereas the majority of the rest of the unwashed went generally for,, XR2, XR3, 1.6 then later 1.9 GTi, The little 1.4 R5 GT Turbo was very very quick in its day , citroen brought out a budget AX Gt, so good that the hatch fell off if someone broke the rear window, Masda had the hot 323 hatch which may have been a homoligation car, Then Fiat had the Uno Turbo and later the Arbarth 130tc. Then Lancia Brought out the Delta...
Now these were the true first generation hot hatches..Before they became bloated...before the manufacturers sanitised them..the Mk1 XR2 was my working class choice..The Mk 2 was horrible in comparison because ford decided to run un-equal length driveshafts which created a horrible torque steerer and spoiled the little Kent engined marvel.
A lot on here won't actually realise the giant killing across country performance these cars had...Point for point their was nothing between them all..You paid your money and bought your favourite brand...then the yuppies bought the GTi's
N.
I recognise that era when it all began because I was there.I don't recognise a lot of cars being classed as a hot hatch on the list.. The era of the hot hatch started with the Golf Gti, there were earlier hatchbacks, but they weren,t HOT !
Golf Gti was brilliant , well made, fast but a touch portly compared to some of the imposters that came along later..I think people also forget how expensive they were in their day which created a 2 tiered clique of hatch drivers.
Your wealthier middle class lot had the GTi Golf whereas the majority of the rest of the unwashed went generally for,, XR2, XR3, 1.6 then later 1.9 GTi, The little 1.4 R5 GT Turbo was very very quick in its day , citroen brought out a budget AX Gt, so good that the hatch fell off if someone broke the rear window, Masda had the hot 323 hatch which may have been a homoligation car, Then Fiat had the Uno Turbo and later the Arbarth 130tc. Then Lancia Brought out the Delta...
Now these were the true first generation hot hatches..Before they became bloated...before the manufacturers sanitised them..the Mk1 XR2 was my working class choice..The Mk 2 was horrible in comparison because ford decided to run un-equal length driveshafts which created a horrible torque steerer and spoiled the little Kent engined marvel.
A lot on here won't actually realise the giant killing across country performance these cars had...Point for point their was nothing between them all..You paid your money and bought your favourite brand...then the yuppies bought the GTi's
N.
The Integrale was a 'dream' car. Few owned them, fewer even drove one. I used to drool when I saw one (not very often).
Strange... the Integrale recently came top in an Autocar Poll of 'hot' hatches. Nobody I knew at that time thought of the Integrale as a hot hatch.
Anyway, there is one car missed out here. Is it because you are all too young or because it's an embarrassment and the bias of the motoring masses in this country who will make you believe anything?
But this particular hot hatch deserved the title hot because it also embarrassed other so-called hot hatches on its launch.
It rotted and fell apart - but then so did almost every car of this era, although none rotted as fast as an Alfa or Lancia.
However, the Turbo version of the car in question went like hell (I know!). Its performance at that time allowed the company to do adverts that others could only dream about. Like, 'the fastest accelerating front-wheel drive car in the world' at the time of its launch. It even had massive billboards saying so.
This was true too.
Cynics (and there were loads of them!) quickly went into print and retaliated 'Yes, but it doesn't handle like them.'
Of course it bloody didn't, none of the others were 5 door family hatches!
The best ad was the one aimed at the Golf GTi for the standard car.
Yep, that dreaded name, Maestro.
Love it or hate it (most hated it of course because of what they read, but never drove one) but it 'was' there among the 'hot' hatches.
Probably the most unbiased review of the Maestro Turbo was written by someone in more recent times with no preconceptions of the model’s strengths or weaknesses, it appears in an American publication called Hot Rods, as part of a series of “Street Racers” pullout supplements about iconic cars. They concluded after an enjoyable, spirited test-drive that:
“…its boxy shape hides a real performer which is much faster than the VW Golf GTi. It operates best when the engine is spinning near 3,000rpm when full-throttle gives acceleration that can surpass several super-cars. It will hurtle to 100mph in under 20 seconds. The other surprise is that it doesn’t torque-steer and is able to corner at very high speeds with very little body-roll. The ride is very rigid but you can forgive that simply for its sheer performance…”
Traditionally British (or more likely, traditionally English)are the self-mocking and self-deriding, much to the puzzlement of other countries who have a higher regard for our achievements and products than we do on native soil. One does wonder how far that attitude has, as a self-fulfilling prophecy, contributed to the decline and virtual extinction of our home-grown manufacturing industry.
Even Clarkson for a change didn't really diss it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Cwx09GHwkA&fea...
Heap of s
te? Naaaaaa 'Hot' Hatch. Oooh yesss!
300bhp/ton said:
RINGMEISTER said:
SWoll said:
Don't want to start up the same old argmument again but if I think "Hot Hatch" the Grale never comes to mind.
I think I make a mental connection between hot hatch and FWD, so also wouldn't come up with the Escort RS, Clio V6 etc.
I know, by definition, they are all hot hatches but my brain seems to refuse to accept it.
Odd?
My thoughts exactly, Ive always regarded hot hatches at a tuned version of the original, not a I think I make a mental connection between hot hatch and FWD, so also wouldn't come up with the Escort RS, Clio V6 etc.
I know, by definition, they are all hot hatches but my brain seems to refuse to accept it.
Odd?
homologation special. Maybe there should be a sub category such as "Hyper Hatch" for the non front wheel
drive cars
[/quAnother interesting side note is that there was actually a Delta HF turbo i.e which had a 1.6 turbocharged engine and front wheel drive without the square arches so was carrying more of the dna of the original delta but was a tuned version
s m said:
vsonix said:
no top 50 love for the E36 328
Touring version? That's the closest version to a hatchbackShame we never got the 323ti
Engine : 6 cylinders in line 2494 cm³ 24 valves
Power : 170 PS (125 kW / 168 hp) at 5500 tr/min (Max RPM 6700 tr/min)
Torque : 245 Nm (25 mkg / 181 lb-ft) at 3950 tr/min (~ 138 PS)
Ratios : 68 PS/L (50 kW/L) - 98 Nm/L
Edited by vsonix on Wednesday 3rd October 21:59
No Mention For the MK1 Fabia vRS?
Okay, a bit lukewarm rather than hot, but that performance with shopping cart fuel economy sureley makes it mentionable in the top 100. The fact that you might overtake someone.....in a skoda of all things brings a smile to your face and a look of shock to others. I'd certainly have rather seen that in place of that AMC Pacer crap
Okay, a bit lukewarm rather than hot, but that performance with shopping cart fuel economy sureley makes it mentionable in the top 100. The fact that you might overtake someone.....in a skoda of all things brings a smile to your face and a look of shock to others. I'd certainly have rather seen that in place of that AMC Pacer crap
General gassing appropriate title for this article to be filed away in..
Some very odd cars on the list and some that arent even mentioned.
I've had many cars over the years from porsches to GT-R 35's to NSX to name a few. But the ones i've always kept a hold of and could never sell are
1. Mk1 golf gti campaign. On the list.
2. Integra dc2 type r. No mention. Should be on the list in top 3.
3. Toyota corolla ae86. No mention. Again should be on the list in the top 3
Some very odd cars on the list and some that arent even mentioned.
I've had many cars over the years from porsches to GT-R 35's to NSX to name a few. But the ones i've always kept a hold of and could never sell are
1. Mk1 golf gti campaign. On the list.
2. Integra dc2 type r. No mention. Should be on the list in top 3.
3. Toyota corolla ae86. No mention. Again should be on the list in the top 3
didn't know this was running, but as I ran down the list, I HOPED I would for once agree with one of these things, AND I AGREE WITH THE TOP THREE!!!
The Peugeot 205 GTi is an AWESOME hot hatch, and I was really hoping people wouldn't have forgotten the Integrale... the ULTIMATE hot hatch.
Excellent list!!
= )
The Peugeot 205 GTi is an AWESOME hot hatch, and I was really hoping people wouldn't have forgotten the Integrale... the ULTIMATE hot hatch.
Excellent list!!
= )
fieldmau5 said:
Sorry, hold on a second, why is there absolutely no mention of the Leon Cupra R? Inarguably one of the top 5 hot hatches of the last 10 years. That's ridiculous.
Well if it was one of the top 5 (I do remember Evo featured them in group tests alot) it was as number 5. Strange the mags never rated the Leon but loved anything with 'Golf' on it... I think the Lancia winning makes sense as this was a forum survey, alot of threads have a rather more 'purist' vibe then the front page. Its Italian (and therefore emotive), different, impractical, expensive and appears rare. I doubt a front page poll would yield the same results.
Nova GTE FTW!
To this 1980s bigot, the hot hatch template is:
1. light
2. practical and reliable (everyday cars, not sports cars)
3. front wheel drive (for safety-first, fun handling - these are not trad. sports cars)
4. four cylinder (for lightness, balance and economy)
5. naturally aspirated (for a linear throttle response)
Re point 3, struggle to get my head around deltas. You might as well put in a quattro also. Hatches they may be, but in a different league?
Re point 2, now that we’re looking back as enthusiasts who no longer live with these cars daily, we forget how important the commuting/shopping/family aspect of the hot hatch was in its day. For instance, the nervous handling 1.9 Pug was a wonderful sports car, marginally better pure sports car for an enthusiast than the equivalent Golf, but the 205 was a lesser hot hatch as it only had 2 doors and was made of tinfoil. Mistake to judge them solely or mainly on how “sporty” they were.
Good fun poll though – happily settle for all ten in the fantasy garage …
1. light
2. practical and reliable (everyday cars, not sports cars)
3. front wheel drive (for safety-first, fun handling - these are not trad. sports cars)
4. four cylinder (for lightness, balance and economy)
5. naturally aspirated (for a linear throttle response)
Re point 3, struggle to get my head around deltas. You might as well put in a quattro also. Hatches they may be, but in a different league?
Re point 2, now that we’re looking back as enthusiasts who no longer live with these cars daily, we forget how important the commuting/shopping/family aspect of the hot hatch was in its day. For instance, the nervous handling 1.9 Pug was a wonderful sports car, marginally better pure sports car for an enthusiast than the equivalent Golf, but the 205 was a lesser hot hatch as it only had 2 doors and was made of tinfoil. Mistake to judge them solely or mainly on how “sporty” they were.
Good fun poll though – happily settle for all ten in the fantasy garage …
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