RE: Chris Harris Video: Hot Hatch Showdown
Discussion
LuS1fer said:
I re-iterate my earlier conclusion that I don't want any of them though neither do I want a BMW 135i which is going to be less useable in wet weather.
Why ? it seems to have plenty of lateral grip, at least as much as the front drivers. Wet weather won't change that. Traction might be more challenging to manage if you use the throttle as an on/off switch obviously, but for most people with decently smooth inputs, it shouldn't be an issue, more like a benefit, what with all the progresivity and balance that such a layout offers, not to mention the Supersports which are the only standards tyres.OK.... wifey is doing some work, so I've been playing on car configurators, to see what a like-for-like spec car costs, when compared to the fully loaded £28.5K ST.... here goes:
Renault 265 - £30.3K
Vauxhall VXR - £33.4K
BMW - £36.2K
The Renault & VXR were damn near fully spec'd at this price, but there was another £5K of options you could add to the BMW (surely few would want to tho'!).
Base spec depreciation for the cars (obviously you can't get internet values for 4yrs in the future with options) appears to be estimated at... ST will lose £15K, the VXR £18K and the BMW will lose £22K. I can't find a price on the Renault, but AutoExpress suggests it's about the same as the Astra.
The caveat to all this, is that this an internet search, so doesn't take into account any possible deals that you might get at a dealer, so assume a few grand off each I guess. Also, I definitely don't think you need all the toys that you'll get at these prices, so there's a few more pennies. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice I suppose.
Renault 265 - £30.3K
Vauxhall VXR - £33.4K
BMW - £36.2K
The Renault & VXR were damn near fully spec'd at this price, but there was another £5K of options you could add to the BMW (surely few would want to tho'!).
Base spec depreciation for the cars (obviously you can't get internet values for 4yrs in the future with options) appears to be estimated at... ST will lose £15K, the VXR £18K and the BMW will lose £22K. I can't find a price on the Renault, but AutoExpress suggests it's about the same as the Astra.
The caveat to all this, is that this an internet search, so doesn't take into account any possible deals that you might get at a dealer, so assume a few grand off each I guess. Also, I definitely don't think you need all the toys that you'll get at these prices, so there's a few more pennies. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice I suppose.
356Speedster said:
OK.... wifey is doing some work, so I've been playing on car configurators, to see what a like-for-like spec car costs, when compared to the fully loaded £28.5K ST.... here goes:
Renault 265 - £30.3K
Vauxhall VXR - £33.4K
BMW - £36.2K
The Renault & VXR were damn near fully spec'd at this price, but there was another £5K of options you could add to the BMW (surely few would want to tho'!).
Base spec depreciation for the cars (obviously you can't get internet values for 4yrs in the future with options) appears to be estimated at... ST will lose £15K, the VXR £18K and the BMW will lose £22K. I can't find a price on the Renault, but AutoExpress suggests it's about the same as the Astra.
The caveat to all this, is that this an internet search, so doesn't take into account any possible deals that you might get at a dealer, so assume a few grand off each I guess. Also, I definitely don't think you need all the toys that you'll get at these prices, so there's a few more pennies. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice I suppose.
Doesn't the BMWs power output begin with a three rather than a two though? I think its a fairer comparison to an RS.Renault 265 - £30.3K
Vauxhall VXR - £33.4K
BMW - £36.2K
The Renault & VXR were damn near fully spec'd at this price, but there was another £5K of options you could add to the BMW (surely few would want to tho'!).
Base spec depreciation for the cars (obviously you can't get internet values for 4yrs in the future with options) appears to be estimated at... ST will lose £15K, the VXR £18K and the BMW will lose £22K. I can't find a price on the Renault, but AutoExpress suggests it's about the same as the Astra.
The caveat to all this, is that this an internet search, so doesn't take into account any possible deals that you might get at a dealer, so assume a few grand off each I guess. Also, I definitely don't think you need all the toys that you'll get at these prices, so there's a few more pennies. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice I suppose.
Are these even options you can get on the others?
ADM06 said:
Sigh.
£200 intercooler, £300 exhaust, £500 remap. Obviously prices will vary somewhat, but if you're thinking of doing it don't pay more than £1500.
Yeah, except those mods will never make 450 bhp in a million years! 400 maybe but any more and the rollers are being somewhat kind..... same with 135i's making 400 bhp from just a map.... they're only ever 350 - 360 bhp on a DD rolling road.£200 intercooler, £300 exhaust, £500 remap. Obviously prices will vary somewhat, but if you're thinking of doing it don't pay more than £1500.
Jespin said:
Yeah, except those mods will never make 450 bhp in a million years! 400 maybe but any more and the rollers are being somewhat kind..... same with 135i's making 400 bhp from just a map.... they're only ever 350 - 360 bhp on a DD rolling road.
They'll make 380bhp on a a decent map. Certainly casts some doubt over what ford are charging for an extra 30bhp.Edited by ADM06 on Thursday 22 November 23:09
356Speedster said:
OK.... wifey is doing some work, so I've been playing on car configurators, to see what a like-for-like spec car costs, when compared to the fully loaded £28.5K ST.... here goes:
Renault 265 - £30.3K
Vauxhall VXR - £33.4K
BMW - £36.2K
The Renault & VXR were damn near fully spec'd at this price, but there was another £5K of options you could add to the BMW (surely few would want to tho'!).
Base spec depreciation for the cars (obviously you can't get internet values for 4yrs in the future with options) appears to be estimated at... ST will lose £15K, the VXR £18K and the BMW will lose £22K. I can't find a price on the Renault, but AutoExpress suggests it's about the same as the Astra.
The caveat to all this, is that this an internet search, so doesn't take into account any possible deals that you might get at a dealer, so assume a few grand off each I guess. Also, I definitely don't think you need all the toys that you'll get at these prices, so there's a few more pennies. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice I suppose.
It's ok playing the list price game but apart from Vauxhall who else will provide such a deal as this - Renault 265 - £30.3K
Vauxhall VXR - £33.4K
BMW - £36.2K
The Renault & VXR were damn near fully spec'd at this price, but there was another £5K of options you could add to the BMW (surely few would want to tho'!).
Base spec depreciation for the cars (obviously you can't get internet values for 4yrs in the future with options) appears to be estimated at... ST will lose £15K, the VXR £18K and the BMW will lose £22K. I can't find a price on the Renault, but AutoExpress suggests it's about the same as the Astra.
The caveat to all this, is that this an internet search, so doesn't take into account any possible deals that you might get at a dealer, so assume a few grand off each I guess. Also, I definitely don't think you need all the toys that you'll get at these prices, so there's a few more pennies. You pays yer money, you takes yer choice I suppose.
Base VXR - £22500
http://www.astonvauxhall.co.uk/new-cars/search/237...
Just watched this. Good to see that manufacturers are still making hot hatches.
I find it interesting too that the noise on the Renault and ford is primarily intake, no doubt due to the fact they are turbo 4's so the intake has been tuned to give it a decent sound rather than chucking a big exhaust on - which will probably sound sh*t.
None of these cars really excite me though, I'd worry about reliability of the turbo too.
The vauxhall is the best looking IMO but thats not to say its a good looking car.
So far, none of these hatchbacks would tempt me out of my 147 GTA.
Those yellow seatbelts in the renault look shockingly bad too
I find it interesting too that the noise on the Renault and ford is primarily intake, no doubt due to the fact they are turbo 4's so the intake has been tuned to give it a decent sound rather than chucking a big exhaust on - which will probably sound sh*t.
None of these cars really excite me though, I'd worry about reliability of the turbo too.
The vauxhall is the best looking IMO but thats not to say its a good looking car.
So far, none of these hatchbacks would tempt me out of my 147 GTA.
Those yellow seatbelts in the renault look shockingly bad too
IanJ9375 said:
It's ok playing the list price game but apart from Vauxhall who else will provide such a deal as this -
Base VXR - £22500
http://www.astonvauxhall.co.uk/new-cars/search/237...
Yup, it's a good deal and as I said, there'll be deals to be done.... but you've got to start an apples with apples comparison somewhere. Now, let's see who gets a car on their drive for the best price Base VXR - £22500
http://www.astonvauxhall.co.uk/new-cars/search/237...
ADM06 said:
Sigh.
£200 intercooler, £300 exhaust, £500 remap. Obviously prices will vary somewhat, but if you're thinking of doing it don't pay more than £1500.
I will reiterate my choice of the M135i as it is the only one that has all the bases covered. People mention it will significantly cost more than £30k once specced up with "essentials". If you deem aircon an essential in a country that is never either hot nor cold you are either too fat or too soft.
One thing you can't spec on a £28k focus ST or even a £40k RS3 is correct wheel drive, for love nor money.
Where can you get a full turbo back exhaust for a 135 for £300? Or a front mount intercooler for £200? £200 intercooler, £300 exhaust, £500 remap. Obviously prices will vary somewhat, but if you're thinking of doing it don't pay more than £1500.
I will reiterate my choice of the M135i as it is the only one that has all the bases covered. People mention it will significantly cost more than £30k once specced up with "essentials". If you deem aircon an essential in a country that is never either hot nor cold you are either too fat or too soft.
One thing you can't spec on a £28k focus ST or even a £40k RS3 is correct wheel drive, for love nor money.
Edited by ADM06 on Thursday 22 November 20:25
Answer - nowhere. You won't get cheap ass Japspeed parts for the BMW in the same way you will for an old Impreza. Dream on if you think it'll be that cheap from anywhere. A decent exhaust will be more like a £900+ and a decent intercooler the same again. Plus the map.
You can't get a 2nd hand exhaust or intercooler in good condition for the old VXR at the prices you think you can get them at.
DanielSan said:
Where can you get a full turbo back exhaust for a 135 for £300? Or a front mount intercooler for £200?
Answer - nowhere. You won't get cheap ass Japspeed parts for the BMW in the same way you will for an old Impreza. Dream on if you think it'll be that cheap from anywhere. A decent exhaust will be more like a £900+ and a decent intercooler the same again. Plus the map.
You can't get a 2nd hand exhaust or intercooler in good condition for the old VXR at the prices you think you can get them at.
Hell you got me. You're right on the exhaust but an intercooler could be had for £500.Answer - nowhere. You won't get cheap ass Japspeed parts for the BMW in the same way you will for an old Impreza. Dream on if you think it'll be that cheap from anywhere. A decent exhaust will be more like a £900+ and a decent intercooler the same again. Plus the map.
You can't get a 2nd hand exhaust or intercooler in good condition for the old VXR at the prices you think you can get them at.
Personally I'd be happy with this.
What were ford charging for 30bhp in a car that drives the wrong wheels again?
s m said:
blearyeyedboy said:
It's clearly not practical for a road tester to take 2 or 3 sets of different branded tyres with a car and tell Joe Public which tyre matches a car best but I wonder how much of a difference it all makes.
Have a look at any tyre test where they use the same car as the test mule for all the different tyres - feedback from the tester is that the car can feel amazingly different on different brands plus the tester can lose confidence on turn-in, corner exit traction etc If they do laptimes then you can sometimes see a 2 or 3 second difference over a 60 second lap between best and worst
ADM06 said:
Hell you got me. You're right on the exhaust but an intercooler could be had for £500.
Personally I'd be happy with this.
What were ford charging for 30bhp in a car that drives the wrong wheels again?
You'd certainly feel the effects of that remap, but as it's a bigger engine with twin turbos, so of course you can get a greater percentage increase with just s/ware. The Mountune package, however, is just that - a package. It's a selection of parts that have been tested to Ford's own durability stds. That means countless miles driven and full engine strip downs & investigations, again to Ford standards. This is what allows it to retain the all important new car warranty. Personally I'd be happy with this.
What were ford charging for 30bhp in a car that drives the wrong wheels again?
All of these go into the final price and also explain the desirability of Mountune cars on the 2nd hand market - a simple remap doesn't add value, but these kits do add a few quids at the other end. It's horses for courses and while some will want the quick bang for buck and be prepared to risk a warranty, others will see the value in the factory backed package.
As for your comments on the drivetrain.... we know there is no such thing as wrong wheel drive, but any wheel drive can be poorly implemented and it's pretty clear that none of these 3 hatches suffer that affliction
Jespin said:
ADM06 said:
Sigh.
£200 intercooler, £300 exhaust, £500 remap. Obviously prices will vary somewhat, but if you're thinking of doing it don't pay more than £1500.
Yeah, except those mods will never make 450 bhp in a million years! 400 maybe but any more and the rollers are being somewhat kind..... same with 135i's making 400 bhp from just a map.... they're only ever 350 - 360 bhp on a DD rolling road.£200 intercooler, £300 exhaust, £500 remap. Obviously prices will vary somewhat, but if you're thinking of doing it don't pay more than £1500.
But with these mods the e82 cars routinely see 420hp+ so I cant' see any reason why the new M135i shouldn't pull more.
You're talking these figures with confidence, I take it your on the babybmw forum too? If they only make 350-360 post map, can you explain Muz's results?
http://www.babybmw.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=31...
For anybody who can't be bothered to click the link, completely standard e82 he pulled 337hp on consecutive runs on a rr day, where the other cars all pulled expected values. i.e standard VXR after him pulled 238hp...
blearyeyedboy said:
s m said:
blearyeyedboy said:
It's clearly not practical for a road tester to take 2 or 3 sets of different branded tyres with a car and tell Joe Public which tyre matches a car best but I wonder how much of a difference it all makes.
Have a look at any tyre test where they use the same car as the test mule for all the different tyres - feedback from the tester is that the car can feel amazingly different on different brands plus the tester can lose confidence on turn-in, corner exit traction etc If they do laptimes then you can sometimes see a 2 or 3 second difference over a 60 second lap between best and worst
By the time these cars get onto the secondhand market and have had a few tyre make/spec changes/ run on different F/R axle pairings or OE spec tyre has discontinued then it's easy to see how opinions might differ of the dynamic qualities of the cars.
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