RE: Price hike: PH Blog

[Evo]

AV12 said:

Are 348s unaffected by all this

There appears to be examples for 40k. It's a beautiful car in my eyes. Dare I say it, prettier than a 355?

Not prettier than the 355, but still lovely to look at in its own right, a baby testarossa.

I'm hoping to be in a position to buy my dream car in five years time having missed out on buying a lhd 348, until my wife announced she was pregnant doh.

That was 25k 9 years ago so hoping there still in reach and if I'm feeling ballsy I'd like to do man maths on a 456 GT, another hugely underrated car that has yet to begin appreciating.

[SidewaysSi]

It's a climate where cars are commodities. They aren't being bought by enthusiasts in the main but by those wanting a quick buck. Unfortunately the prices are making it hard for some true enthusiasts to afford what they want.

It will have to slow once things get too silly-supply and demand will eventually even things out IMO.

[jakeb]

I don't really get the massive E30 M3 price hike. Yes they did a bit of British and World Touring banger racing but does that mean expect we can expect ludicrous pricing of Cavalier GSi's, Mondeo STs and Chevrolet Cruzes coming to a garage near you soon?

Having no interest what so ever in 968 pricing , some one mentioned no racing history. Well I cant remember seeing any sort of E30s at Le Mans or Sebring other than in the car park (no doubt evidence will appear shortly!). Ok this is a 1 of 4 turbo RS but plenty of CS's and 944s did endurance racing back in the day as well as Porsche series (what did all those 964RS's do?)



It went for $346500 after commission!

Edited by jakeb on Friday 6th June 06:37

[optimal909]

jakeb said:

I don't really get the massive E30 M3 price hike. Yes they did a bit of British and World Touring banger racing but does that mean expect we can expect ludicrous pricing of Cavalier GSi's, Mondeo STs and Chevrolet Cruzes coming to a garage near you soon?

Edited by jakeb on Friday 6th June 06:37

Well, the original Mondeo ST200 was produced for 6 months only, so there aren't many around...

[jakeb]

good point - i best have a rummage through the classified

[labrit]

GRBF430F1 said:

My 2012 E gear is fantastic and far better than my 2009 F430F1 . Quick and smooth but obviously not quite as good as the dual clutch technology. Even Chris Harris said in his Superleggera review that the e-gear was no where near as bad as he had envisaged after getting back in the Gallardo after driving the 458. Yes its not silky smooth and fast to the extent you don't know you have even changed gear but it suits the car and it is this sort of feel that gives you the sense you are still driving a supercar.

As regards residuals I've recently had a number of trade bids well north of £125k and they have only been creeping upwards since October 2013. Only 1 car currently for sale and its a standard 2011 model at £150k.
With Huracan coming in at in excess of £200k and sold out, spyder versions not due for a further 2 years and likelt to be £220k by then residuals are going to be very strong for the forseeable future on any gallardo

You're on cloud 9.

[Moospeed]

RMac said:

RB Will said:

Really am kicking myself for buying an E30 325is rather than an E30 m3 at the time they were about £8-10k. It was just a daily car as I had a fun weekender already so went for the cheaper option

I sort of feel the same way - I 'nearly' bought an e30 M3 so many times but always went for a more modern alternative.

In reality though, if I had, and had kept it, which would be mightily unlikely, it would be fit for nothing but the scrap heap by now.

I wonder if I'll ever get over p/x'ing my E30 M3 for £6.5k against a Fiat Barchetta!!

Ridiculous how it seems now, back then it actually was a decent enough deal at the time. Review this thread in a decade or two and see how 'naive' we all were back then.

I had better luck with an Elise Sport 160 I bought and sold 3 years later for a profit which was enough to cover all the costs and most of the petrol as well I'd think. Free fun motoring is enjoyable.

In fact I bought another one last year, a few grand more than the previous one but no better as a car. There is talk of them going up but really I'm not hugely worried. I bought it to enjoy, if it doesn't lose me too much in the process then I'm happy.

Quite glad that years ago I stopped 'saving for a dream car' as the goalposts have moved away every time and I'm pretty sure that if I ever had stretched myself to buy one then the dream might've ended up like one of those 'never meet your heroes' things.

[e21Mark]

optimal909 said:

jakeb said:

I don't really get the massive E30 M3 price hike. Yes they did a bit of British and World Touring banger racing but does that mean expect we can expect ludicrous pricing of Cavalier GSi's, Mondeo STs and Chevrolet Cruzes coming to a garage near you soon?

Edited by jakeb on Friday 6th June 06:37

Well, the original Mondeo ST200 was produced for 6 months only, so there aren't many around...

E30 M3 is the most successful touring car there has ever been. More than that though, it's just a great car to drive and all those magazine articles that bang on about the driving experience, intuitive handling and perfect balance, are all spot on. I can't deny they're expensive but they're genuine homologation models, made in limited numbers. Added to that, they also made awesome rally cars and kicked off 25 or so years of arguably the best sports saloon on the market.

[Furyblade_Lee]

The Pits said:

I don't get the 360 CS at all, nor the 964RS.

However what could be the reason that the Carrera GT isn't rising as fast as the 'posh beetles'?

The reputation for twitchy handling that was perhaps reinforced by the Paul Walker tragic accident. Could that be it? Yet tricky handling doesn't seem to bother investors when it comes to 911s. Regardless, as much as I'll always love the F40, surely a CGT is a nicer thing to drive most of the time? I could fit in one for a start.

XJ220 is another interesting one, are they finally going up? That was the car that burst the 90's bubble in many ways. For years they were tarnished by the whole debacle of people paying large sums of money to get themselves off the waiting list. Epic supercar with race pedigree and briefly the fastest car in the world, yet has never got anywhere near its original asking price.

Edited by The Pits on Thursday 5th June 22:04

Intersting.... Don't think Carrera GT's suspect handling or design flaws caused the death of Paul Walker, it was the driver who was driving like an idiot on the public highway.... name me another car in which they would have 100% not have crashed or died in???

[Furyblade_Lee]

There is a few very basic rules which can be applied for mere mortals to invest in " regular" cars.

Motorsport pedigree. Homologation specials. Dwindling numbers of good ones.

Always worth looking into motorsport websites for upcoming race series that new cars are eligible for. Happened big time with historic rallying. Any old crap MK1 & II Escorts suddenly were worth thousands. And 60's mini cooper S's tripling in value. What rich guys and race teams will want in the near future will drive certain sectors of the market up.

Someone mention earlier a Lamborghini Gallardo as an investment? I doubt it, unless it is a limited edition like a 2WD Balboni. They are too plentiful and when they get really affordable a serious fault with the engine or gearbox could mean financial ruin. That has meant the death knell for many " cooking " Lambos in the past.

If I had £15k to blow on a toy in the hope it would look after me a little financially, a 968CS or even a mint MO30-spec 944 turbo would be wise, WHEN it is their turn to be the next lusted after must-have Porsche in Porsche circles they will double in price very quickly.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Just you wait until interest rates rise

[f328nvl]

This graph shows the asking price and actual sales price inc premium of RHD Ferrari Dinos since 1974. I collated the data for an aborted Doctoral project and now just keep it up to date for interest, and, yes, I do wish I'd bought one in 2004 when I bought a Ferrari 550 instead.

It may be relevant for bubble spotters. I agree whole heartedly with the sentiments expressed by Mr Harris, and I own one of those apparently fast appreciating Ferrari 355s.

Further analysis is at www.honestjg.com if you are that interested. (apologies for the poor pic: the first bubble is 1989, peaked at £189k. Today we at £250-300k)

Edited by f328nvl on Friday 6th June 08:48

[Tebbs]

For my own curiosity do you have that chart adjusted for inflation, and adjusted for house price inflation?

[tclynes]

On the property stuff, my dad was clever and hard working enough to buy places in London in the 80's for 35k that have done very well, it was big money back then. He was offered one for £110k but turned it down, it was sold by a famous dancing irish man for £12m a few years back. But £110k was a lot then, and he bought a farm instead which we loved whilst growing up.

While the interest rates are low cars will be ok, and they can't hike the rates up as the country will go bust, people sit on their bought with a loan sofa watching their bought with a loan tv now days, it will kill the economy.

BHC said:

Will the next generation of millionaires want to buy E-Types as much as the current generation, for instance?

If I ever become a millionaire, e-type and xk120 is high on the list. I genuinely dont know how xk120's/140's are so cheap, but please let them stay that way as I'll never have one otherwise!

The problem is people are speculating and only buying as an investment, thats not what cars are for. A good friend who just bought an e-type came out with the best line 'If someone tell's me its only worth £10k tomorrow, i'll think great, I can buy another one and double my fun' - that attitude means you dont care about bubbles!

[AdvocatusD]

labrit said:

GRBF430F1 said:

My 2012 E gear is fantastic and far better than my 2009 F430F1 . Quick and smooth but obviously not quite as good as the dual clutch technology. Even Chris Harris said in his Superleggera review that the e-gear was no where near as bad as he had envisaged after getting back in the Gallardo after driving the 458. Yes its not silky smooth and fast to the extent you don't know you have even changed gear but it suits the car and it is this sort of feel that gives you the sense you are still driving a supercar.

As regards residuals I've recently had a number of trade bids well north of £125k and they have only been creeping upwards since October 2013. Only 1 car currently for sale and its a standard 2011 model at £150k.
With Huracan coming in at in excess of £200k and sold out, spyder versions not due for a further 2 years and likelt to be £220k by then residuals are going to be very strong for the forseeable future on any gallardo

You're on cloud 9.

I'd just ignore him mate. Couple of people on here have already called him out, but it won't change anything. It's a pity more folks don't speak up or the mods don't ban him again. Pity really, he seems to have something to contribute if he takes the rose tinted glasses off.

Chapppers said:

I probably shouldn't bite but I drove an e-gear Gallardo a few weeks ago and it was horrendous, but also completely different to the CSL's way of doing things. The CSL is definitely agricultural and has no concept of smoothness but it's fairly quick and very engaging. The downshifts in particular ready impress me, and I've spent a LOT of time and miles with the ZF 8spd.

I can't possibly stay impartial when it comes to talking about CSL future values but there's certainly a minimum price driven by the value of the parts to other CSL and standard M3 owners.

It's definitely an interesting time, here's hoping the 997 GT3 bubble bursts at some point because I'd really like to own one some day.

I sold my GT3 about a year ago. It was a fantastic car but I am surprised at how values have risen. I expected it to happen, but not for at least 3 - 4 years. I do believe a bubble is forming in respect to cars like the GT3, but perhaps this is the "new normal".

I've driven quite a few Gallardos on track and on the road. To me (compared to a TVR, GT3, Challenge Stradale, etc that I owned/own) they just felt like a fast(er) Audi and not particularly involving. The equivalent Ferrari has always been superior and the Lambo doesn't make up for the loss of speed, etc with enough character or je ne sais quoi. The gearchange was jerky and I thought the car felt dated from the start. Pity really, I'd always loved the idea of owning a new shape LP560-4 or a Superleggera. There is not a hope of these cars becoming classics I think. Too many made and too many "specials".

Edited by AdvocatusD on Friday 6th June 09:58

[Lowtimer]

Tebbs said:

For my own curiosity do you have that chart adjusted for inflation, and adjusted for house price inflation?

The raw data is all available via his website if you want to have a go. Wouldn't be a big job to throw the UK RPI data set into the Excel spreadsheet.

http://www.honestjg.com/2013/06/uk-right-hand-driv...

[RobJohnson]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

There are plenty of enthusiasts out there buying these cars. It seems to be generally assumed in this thread that the market is being driven by speculators - and there are plenty of them out there - but the established enthusiasts are certainly buying plenty of cars and there is plenty of money out there.

You also have to remember that the prices they are advertised aren't necessarily the prices paid.

[optimal909]

e21Mark said:

E30 M3 is the most successful touring car there has ever been. More than that though, it's just a great car to drive and all those magazine articles that bang on about the driving experience, intuitive handling and perfect balance, are all spot on. I can't deny they're expensive but they're genuine homologation models, made in limited numbers. Added to that, they also made awesome rally cars and kicked off 25 or so years of arguably the best sports saloon on the market.

I'm not challenging that.

But as others argued, the auto industry has changed a lot and cars produced 10-15 years ago are now properly old-school in many ways. So yes, I'd say even something like a Pug 406 V6 will be cherished if not as much as a touring car icon.

[Harris_I]

"consider that in terms of pure provenance as both a drivers' car and for competition pedigree, the only thing that comes close to the E30 M3 is a Porsche 911 2.7 RS. "

Integrale. It's only been mentioned once I think in about 200 posts.

Can someone please explain why a 6-times WRC winning pukka homologation special with perhaps the finest analogue interface of any four wheel drive car and in danger of extinction through natural attrition has been sitting at roughly the same value for the past five years whilst its circuit racing contemporary, the E30 M3, has gone stratospheric? I'm genuinely confused.

[nigelonich]

I owned a perfect E30 M3 Evo Sport in red about ten years ago for six months or so. It had done 60k miles and was in extremely good condition in every way. The continual positive press feedback on this car was completely missed by me as I found it way beneath my expectations in terms of speed, handling and overall driving pleasure. I compare this with cars like an escort cosworth and others on my pre owned list.

I decided to take advantage of the growing interest and I sold it for a couple of thousand more than I paid for it but it was still less than £20k from memory. The guy that bought it (very pleasant chap) had a Johnny Cecotto m3 and although i didn't discuss it with him in detail he had the advantage of seeing the Sport as an upgrade as where I started with the Sport. He sold it on shortly afterwards and hopefully for a profit.

However, the Harris comments on the Stradale questioning the price tag I agree with but it must be made clear that a stradale for £200k makes far more sense to me than a Evo Sport at £80k. This is coming from someone who has one and has owned both.

AFAIK the cheapest new Ferrari you can get is at maximum road tax and will be reaching at £180k+. Unless you are uber wealthy a used Strad, Scud, 16m or something a bit more classic like a decent 355 will easily satisfy a Ferrari itch and its the demand for that cheaper itch that is keeping the market for the 8 - 15 year old cars up surely?