RE: RIP the hot hatch: Tell Me I'm Wrong

[GTID]

Hot Hatch Dead? No. There have still been some gems in the past few years, Suzuki Swift Sport, Twingo RS, Clio RS 200, Fiesta ST now to name a few as mentioned already.

The game just seems to be moving on though with the likes of the Merc A45 AMG, Golf R, BMW M135i. A lot of bang for your buck, but which doesn't necessarily mean fun.

Ford seem to have it nailed with the Fiesta ST, punchy engine, light(ish), great chassis set up, affordable, does the everyday stuff well.

[USABRZ]

The amount of people who drive their car in an enthusiastic manner on a daily basis is absurdly small. Many people who love cars don't. The market for cheap, light, analog fun drivers cars is pretty small. You can even see than on PH, people demand bigger engines, faster times, more luxury.

[paultownsend]

After seeing what happened to my Golf mk2 after a drink driver crashed into it at relatively low speed, I wouldn't want to have an accident in one. It ripped the engine off all 3 mounts, rippled the roof, floor pan and bulkhead.

I suppose that's the weight difference between a mk2 and 7.

[kathyp]

JonRB said:

It depends on how much weight that 110bhp has to pull (or push).

The Swift Sport Mk1 (sorry to bang on about it, but it's the one I have direct experience of) is just over a tonne. The BMW 1-series has about 35% extra lard to cart around (the 5-door is 1395kg according to the BMW website)

Edit: Can't find the exact weight of the Mk1 but the 136bhp Mk2 is 1045kg, and is heavier than the 123bhp Mk1, so power-to-weight will be similar.

Edited by JonRB on Thursday 7th August 14:46

Not quite accurate, the MK2 swift sport is 25kg lighter than MK1.

I very nearly bought one...but the lack of torque just makes it feel strangely slow and in the end I went for the Fiesta ST, no need to mountune it, feels just right and loads of fun all the time. Only my R5 turbo was as much fun, and that's probably only rosy memories rather than reality!

[JonRB]

kathyp said:

Not quite accurate, the MK2 swift sport is 25kg lighter than MK1.

I stand corrected. In mitigation, it's extremely rare that a new model is lighter than its predecessor.

If it wasn't for the fact that the Mk2 looks rather fussy compared to the Mk1, I'd be even more inclined to trade up in the light of that information - more power, less weight, and a desperately-needed 6th gear. That's pretty compelling.

Edit: Now you mention it, that does sound right. I remember thinking at the time that my Swift Sport Mk1 and my Sagaris weighed about the same (Sagaris is officially 1060kg) - it had just slipped my mind.

Edited by JonRB on Thursday 7th August 21:06

[BBS-LM]

I have to completely disagree with what has been said in this Article, and I have had first had experience of and Old school Hot Hatch for almost a year, yes it been great fun driving a Clio 172, and has to go down as one of the best Hot Hatch I have driven, but after the fun wears off, and trust me, it does very quickly, you are left with a car that on a 60mile commute leaves you cold, it so loud and tiring on the motorway that it's the last thing you want to be in when driving home, for me it's something I don't even consider taking on long journeys because I know full well it would just piss me off at the end of it.

Theres allot to be said for modern Hot Hatches, they do a good job at ticking allot of boxes, from fun to drive, easy to live with, and if need be can do long journeys on a commute, and I know which one I would take every time, thanks but today Hatches are great all round, modern, reliable, and still a good laugh when you are in the mood for it, and if your not, they get you home without being unbearable to live with. I know which one I would take, and it's not from 80s or 90s, Today will do just fine, thanks.

[kathyp]

JonRB said:

I stand corrected. In mitigation, it's extremely rare that a new model is lighter than its predecessor.

If it wasn't for the fact that the Mk2 looks rather fussy compared to the Mk1, I'd be even more inclined to trade up in the light of that information - more power, less weight, and a desperately-needed 6th gear. That's pretty compelling.

Yep very rare!! Its got great handling and loads of kit, without a doubt the best 'warm' hatch out there by a mile. Just not quite enough oooomph for me in the end. That, and the fact the new ST exists. In isolation though, hard to argue against the swift if you're happy with the power delivery.

[Wollcage]

Click bait at its finest.

[Strawman]

CampDavid said:

The original post was not only poorly informed but massively aggressive to the journalist who wrote the article so no, not really into having a healthy debate with the chap in question.

I thought the article in question was poorly researched and lazy fallacious "observation". Shame some of the arse lickers who post on here can't cope with a modicum of reality.

eta- From the get-go

Edited by Strawman on Thursday 7th August 21:51

Edited by Strawman on Thursday 7th August 21:51

[CampDavid]

Strawman said:

CampDavid said:

The original post was not only poorly informed but massively aggressive to the journalist who wrote the article so no, not really into having a healthy debate with the chap in question.

I thought the article in question was poorly researched and lazy fallacious "observation". Shame some of the arse lickers who post on here can't cope with a modicum of reality.

I don't think the research was that bad, I can't see anything massively wrong in it. I hated the way, especially in the first post here, that people slag absolutely everything on here off. The site has it's issues in places but there's no need for it, it's getting old.

[blasos]

JD PH said:

Antj said:

New boy seems to think an Integra Type R is a Hot hatch. Fails to mention recent hero's such as the EP3 Civic Type R, or the recent Hot hatch prince the Fiesta ST.

Sorry New Boy, knowledge is lacking and this article is brought out every few months, its just this rehash is even papper than normal

Come on now, don't sit on the fence!

I'll chalk that up as a vote for "James is wrong" then.

P.S. I think you mean heroes, not hero's

Are you really an employee of this website? That's probably the pettiest comment I've read on pistonheads.com. You'd be better served by showing some maturity or take up commenting on YouTube videos.

[white_goodman]

I agree with the premise of the article. I would take a 205 GTi for a B-road blast for fun any day over most modern hot hatches but to put my wife and kids in for a 500 mile journey, a new Golf GTI would win hands down and be easier to live with day-to-day and offer some fun when required, so I can see both sides. Perhaps cars like the aforementioned Swift Sport, Twingo RS and Fiesta ST strike the best balance between the best qualities of the old and modern hatches?

I always saw this car as a modern-day mk1 Golf GTi (similar size, weight and power).

[CampDavid]

blasos said:

Are you really an employee of this website? That's probably the pettiest comment I've read on pistonheads.com. You'd be better served by showing some maturity or take up commenting on YouTube videos.

Petty? The standard here is pretty high, you'll have to do better than that. Though by quoting something from 9 pages previous you're showing promise.

[Strawman]

CampDavid said:

I don't think the research was that bad, I can't see anything massively wrong in it. I hated the way, especially in the first post here, that people slag absolutely everything on here off. The site has it's issues in places but there's no need for it, it's getting old.

That makes more sense and I don't know is the honest answer, this article I thought was tedious and derivative from the Get-Go. As for the wider issues of this site I'M am increasingly occasional visitor here.

Edited by Strawman on Thursday 7th August 22:05

[MarshPhantom]

There's is only a small market for these types of vehicle too, you very rarely see hot hatches in France for example.

A diesel 320 Bimmer has more than enough performance for most people.

[Countersteer]

In a search for 'performance', we lose 'entertainment'.... or at least push it way out of arms reach on anything but a track. There are allsorts of traction control gizmos now, trick diffs, bigger, wider, grippier tyres, computer controlled everything for precious nths of a second. And yet when the GT86 went to back-to-basics motoring, the first thing we shouted was 'it needs more power'.

I agree with the new boy. Sifting through the classifieds I rarely find myself looking at anything under 10yrs old...

[Fire99]

I guess the fact that safety etc has made cars generally fatter and harder to 'pare to the bone', emissions etc push cars to electric steering, more complex engines plus the public expectation of all the creature comforts under the sun, not to mention cars have generally got bigger and tyres / suspension / brakes more sophisticated.

All that together make it harder to produce a car that really has the feel of yesteryear hot-hatches.

I guess the GT86 has a bit of a go at it but personally I think its deliberate attempt to reduce grip etc make it more a homage to the past rather than a true relative.

[davepoth]

MarshPhantom said:

There's is only a small market for these types of vehicle too, you very rarely see hot hatches in France for example.

A diesel 320 Bimmer has more than enough performance for most people.

It's not about being fast. A hot hatch was always in the "sweet spot" - fast enough to keep up with low spec sports coupes, but still cheap enough to be affordable by someone in their 20s on an average salary, and practical enough to be used as an only car.

[carmadnick]

With all this chit chat of which hot hatch is the hottest I had my Van Gogh moment (didnt do him justice) in producing the hottest of all hot hatches!


In all seriousness though the hot hatch is by far dead its just changed drastically over the years, the Golf R and A45 amg allow many people to exploit proper performance without the impracticality of a sports/supercar in a safe understeery way.

Has the hot hatch died in the eyes of a hot hatch enthusiast? Perhaps, with the older cars you have to work for the performance; manual, revy engine, light weight, throw it at the corners, no PAS etc. However the new cars have turbos, auto, lots of electronic gubbins, heavy in comparison which takes the original ethos of a hot hatch away.

I also think an older hot hatch would be more fun on the road as they are much rawer than modern stuff, you can use the performance and handling on the road without breaking the rules and they are more involving for the driver. The older cars are more fun at slower speeds is what I'm trying to get at. On a day to day basis you probably wont have the chance to use the Golf R or A45 amg as they were intended.

If someone offered me a brand new mk2 golf 16v against a Golf R I would take the 16v every time.

I'm undecided on the Megane r26r as it has rave reviews but a hot hatch should be able to get the kids to school etc having scaffolding in the back doesn't help. I recently drove 3 mates down to Cornwall in my mk2 golf full of stuff didn't miss a beat, i think the megane struggles on the practicality side of things but a great car all the same.

[Amirhussain]

In 10-20 years time, people will be praising the current hot hatches, like they praise the hot hatches of the 80s and 90s now.

The hot hatch is not dead, never will be.