HGV vs caravan smash on the M6

[budfox]

The Mad Monk said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Department of Sweeping Generalisations.

He's right though.

[whoami]

Sump said:

heebeegeetee said:

that you start to feel that you have an idea of what it must have been like to have been black back in the 1950's.

[c81]

Reminds me of a saying my grandfather said to remember when I started driving:

He was right dead right as he drove along, but just as dead as if he were bl00dy well wrong...

[philmots]

From an HGV drivers point of view.....

This is a prime example of why I work nights! 5 years of working days and idiots like in the CRV took its toll on me, since moving to nights with clear roads etc I'm completely stress free and genuinely love the job.

I pretty much echo other comments, though..

CRV driver was fully in the wrong.. He wasn't just indicating looking for a gap, he was indicating and turning into a gap that wasn't there. Trying to bully the HGV out the way...

If I was the HGV driver I'd of done my best to back off and just let the guy in, I'm not bothered for losing a few seconds..

Problem in that situation is there wasn't enough space before the Armco barrier. If the HGV wanted to fully avoid an accident he'd of had to come to a pretty abrupt stop due to the length of the car/caravan combo, this could of caused all sorts of issues behind with other traffic and causing a different accident.

For that reason (although in this situation I don't think the above was his thought process) I can see why the HGV would hold his line as it would be reaonsanabe to assume the CRV wouldn't drive straight into him.

stty situation, but i'd be claiming it wasn't safe to slam on therefore wasn't anything more I could do therefore it's 100% the CRV drivers fault.

Although, I don't think braking entered his head!

[Sonic]

The CRV driver puts HGV driver into a position of having to take avoiding action or crash, which puts fault firmly on the CRV drivers shoulders IMO.

Yes the HGV driver was a cock and could have made things easier, but this doesn't excuse the CRV driver for deliberately ploughing his car into the side of the lorry which is dangerous driving.

[Dr Jekyll]

As my instructor said to me. "Don't commit yourself to occupying a piece of road until you're sure nobody else wants it."

[nipsips]

saaby93 said:

nipsips said:

So for it to be 50/50 you have to have some negligence against the truck driver.

Where does it say in the highway code that you have to brake, potentially causing an accident behind you to let someone who was indicating in. It doesnt. The truck driver is established in his lane and has every right to accelerate if he sees fit to do so. The caravan driver has to adapt his driving to suit.

I think you ned to re-read your HC code.
Is holding your line, resulting in an avoidable collision there?

nipsips said:

There is no way this will go 50/50 even with the truck accelerating. And I have years of motor claims experience.

No wonder some claims go the way they do. Maybe some retraining?

Perhaps you could direct me to where the Highway Code states that?

Actually I'll have a look for you. To start with:

266
Approaching a junction. Look well ahead for signals or signs. Direction signs may be placed over the road. If you need to change lanes, do so in good time. At some junctions a lane may lead directly off the motorway. Only get in that lane if you wish to go in the direction indicated on the overhead signs.

272
Unless signs indicate that a lane leads directly off the motorway, you will normally leave the motorway by a slip road on your left. You should:

• watch for the signs letting you know you are getting near your exit
• move into the left-hand lane well before reaching your exit
• signal left in good time and reduce your speed on the slip road as necessary.

165
You MUST NOT overtake

• if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 129)
• if you would have to enter an area designed to divide traffic, if it is surrounded by a solid white line

133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

134
You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane as directed. In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily. Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when vehicles are travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high speed.

In fact the only things that I can see that the truck driver is guilty of is potentially this:

147
Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care (see Rule 204).

• try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well.

be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake.

• do not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey.
• slow down and hold back if a road user pulls out into your path at a junction. Allow them to get clear. Do not over-react by driving too close behind to intimidate them.

Law EPA 1990 sect 87

168
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

None of these say - the person who is entering his intention to enter your lane has priority. You MUST slow down or stop to let the person who is breaking every rule above skip two miles of traffic.

And for the record my training is absolutely fine and my employer has absolutely no issue with the way I handle motor claims nor their outcomes. I dont see the need for the personal dig however. I'm only trying to shed some light on what will happen.

If I was representing the truck driver I would be stating the laws above that the caravan driver broke, and if I was representing the caravan driver I would be telling him he is at fault.

[Calza]

Why did that woman decide to go for a jog down the slip road?!

[MrBarry123]

Absolutely.

A similar situation is queuing (often) for the M25 when travelling eastbound on the M4. I'll purposely leave at least a five car gap in front of me to allow people to slip in.

The number of people you see rammed up against each other to prevent others from merging beggars belief. It only needs one car to slam on the anchors and there's a guaranteed morning of fun, games and laughter for everyone.

ETA: doh! "Absolutely" in response to MitchT's comment.

[DervVW]

nipsips said:

saaby93 said:

nipsips said:

So for it to be 50/50 you have to have some negligence against the truck driver.

Where does it say in the highway code that you have to brake, potentially causing an accident behind you to let someone who was indicating in. It doesnt. The truck driver is established in his lane and has every right to accelerate if he sees fit to do so. The caravan driver has to adapt his driving to suit.

I think you ned to re-read your HC code.
Is holding your line, resulting in an avoidable collision there?

nipsips said:

There is no way this will go 50/50 even with the truck accelerating. And I have years of motor claims experience.

No wonder some claims go the way they do. Maybe some retraining?

Perhaps you could direct me to where the Highway Code states that?

Actually I'll have a look for you. To start with:

266
Approaching a junction. Look well ahead for signals or signs. Direction signs may be placed over the road. If you need to change lanes, do so in good time. At some junctions a lane may lead directly off the motorway. Only get in that lane if you wish to go in the direction indicated on the overhead signs.

272
Unless signs indicate that a lane leads directly off the motorway, you will normally leave the motorway by a slip road on your left. You should:

• watch for the signs letting you know you are getting near your exit
• move into the left-hand lane well before reaching your exit
• signal left in good time and reduce your speed on the slip road as necessary.

165
You MUST NOT overtake

• if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 129)
• if you would have to enter an area designed to divide traffic, if it is surrounded by a solid white line

133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

134
You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane as directed. In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily. Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when vehicles are travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high speed.

In fact the only things that I can see that the truck driver is guilty of is potentially this:

147
Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care (see Rule 204).

• try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well.

be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake.

• do not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey.
• slow down and hold back if a road user pulls out into your path at a junction. Allow them to get clear. Do not over-react by driving too close behind to intimidate them.

Law EPA 1990 sect 87

168
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

None of these say - the person who is entering his intention to enter your lane has priority. You MUST slow down or stop to let the person who is breaking every rule above skip two miles of traffic.

And for the record my training is absolutely fine and my employer has absolutely no issue with the way I handle motor claims nor their outcomes. I dont see the need for the personal dig however. I'm only trying to shed some light on what will happen.

If I was representing the truck driver I would be stating the laws above that the caravan driver broke, and if I was representing the caravan driver I would be telling him he is at fault.

Hard to argue with that!

[Dr Jekyll]

Calza said:

Why did that woman decide to go for a jog down the slip road?!

Stress reaction?

When in danger
or in doubt
run at random
scream and shout.

[wc98]

Mave said:

Agreed. Caravan driver was an idiot, but HGV driver could easily have backed off and prevented getting to the point where the car is sideways under his cab.

nope. hgv bloke would have had to stop completely to let caravan bloke into lane within remaining space prior to solid lines and car in front would have to accelerate to create the gap. 100% caravan blokes fault imo.

[V8forweekends]

wc98 said:

Mave said:

Agreed. Caravan driver was an idiot, but HGV driver could easily have backed off and prevented getting to the point where the car is sideways under his cab.

nope. hgv bloke would have had to stop completely to let caravan bloke into lane within remaining space prior to solid lines and car in front would have to accelerate to create the gap. 100% caravan blokes fault imo.

Agreed at the point where the crash happens - but the HGV baulked the CRV at an earlier point where it would have been easy (if annoying) to slow and let him in.

[The Mad Monk]

DAVEVO9 said:

Have a look at this vid clip..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOSRGIpeBzU

Proper HGV this time. You can clearly see the height difference.

It is not a HGV in the caravan crash clip.

Edited by DAVEVO9 on Monday 20th April 09:12

Not a proper HGV?

Oh well. That changes everything then.

Why didn't you tell us that it wasn't a proper HGV before??

Er, just spell it out would you? What difference does it make?

[surveyor]

The Mad Monk said:

DAVEVO9 said:

Have a look at this vid clip..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOSRGIpeBzU

Proper HGV this time. You can clearly see the height difference.

It is not a HGV in the caravan crash clip.

Edited by DAVEVO9 on Monday 20th April 09:12

Not a proper HGV?

Oh well. That changes everything then.

Why didn't you tell us that it wasn't a proper HGV before??

Er, just spell it out would you? What difference does it make?

He was not forced onto the Hard shoulder - just did not want to brake. He had plenty of time to come off the gas and take just a few mpg off.

[surveyor]

nipsips said:

saaby93 said:

nipsips said:

So for it to be 50/50 you have to have some negligence against the truck driver.

Where does it say in the highway code that you have to brake, potentially causing an accident behind you to let someone who was indicating in. It doesnt. The truck driver is established in his lane and has every right to accelerate if he sees fit to do so. The caravan driver has to adapt his driving to suit.

I think you ned to re-read your HC code.
Is holding your line, resulting in an avoidable collision there?

nipsips said:

There is no way this will go 50/50 even with the truck accelerating. And I have years of motor claims experience.

No wonder some claims go the way they do. Maybe some retraining?

Perhaps you could direct me to where the Highway Code states that?

Actually I'll have a look for you. To start with:

266
Approaching a junction. Look well ahead for signals or signs. Direction signs may be placed over the road. If you need to change lanes, do so in good time. At some junctions a lane may lead directly off the motorway. Only get in that lane if you wish to go in the direction indicated on the overhead signs.

272
Unless signs indicate that a lane leads directly off the motorway, you will normally leave the motorway by a slip road on your left. You should:

• watch for the signs letting you know you are getting near your exit
• move into the left-hand lane well before reaching your exit
• signal left in good time and reduce your speed on the slip road as necessary.

165
You MUST NOT overtake

• if you would have to cross or straddle double white lines with a solid line nearest to you (but see Rule 129)
• if you would have to enter an area designed to divide traffic, if it is surrounded by a solid white line

133
If you need to change lane, first use your mirrors and if necessary take a quick sideways glance to make sure you will not force another road user to change course or speed. When it is safe to do so, signal to indicate your intentions to other road users and when clear, move over.

134
You should follow the signs and road markings and get into the lane as directed. In congested road conditions do not change lanes unnecessarily. Merging in turn is recommended but only if safe and appropriate when vehicles are travelling at a very low speed, e.g. when approaching road works or a road traffic incident. It is not recommended at high speed.

In fact the only things that I can see that the truck driver is guilty of is potentially this:

147
Be considerate. Be careful of and considerate towards all types of road users, especially those requiring extra care (see Rule 204).

• try to be understanding if other road users cause problems; they may be inexperienced or not know the area well.

be patient; remember that anyone can make a mistake.

• do not allow yourself to become agitated or involved if someone is behaving badly on the road. This will only make the situation worse. Pull over, calm down and, when you feel relaxed, continue your journey.
• slow down and hold back if a road user pulls out into your path at a junction. Allow them to get clear. Do not over-react by driving too close behind to intimidate them.

Law EPA 1990 sect 87

168
Being overtaken. If a driver is trying to overtake you, maintain a steady course and speed, slowing down if necessary to let the vehicle pass. Never obstruct drivers who wish to pass. Speeding up or driving unpredictably while someone is overtaking you is dangerous. Drop back to maintain a two-second gap if someone overtakes and pulls into the gap in front of you.

None of these say - the person who is entering his intention to enter your lane has priority. You MUST slow down or stop to let the person who is breaking every rule above skip two miles of traffic.

And for the record my training is absolutely fine and my employer has absolutely no issue with the way I handle motor claims nor their outcomes. I dont see the need for the personal dig however. I'm only trying to shed some light on what will happen.

If I was representing the truck driver I would be stating the laws above that the caravan driver broke, and if I was representing the caravan driver I would be telling him he is at fault.

What would you think if you employed the HGV driver? He had plenty of time to back off when the caravan was first looking to come over, but you could hear him deliberately closing the gap. If he'd just backed off and let the guy in he would be on time, the motorway not closed, and his employers have less paperwork.

You can see why insurance companies sometimes charge more for drivers in non-fault accidents.

[Mafffew]

MrBarry123 said:

Absolutely.

A similar situation is queuing (often) for the M25 when travelling eastbound on the M4. I'll purposely leave at least a five car gap in front of me to allow people to slip in.

The number of people you see rammed up against each other to prevent others from merging beggars belief. It only needs one car to slam on the anchors and there's a guaranteed morning of fun, games and laughter for everyone.

ETA: doh! "Absolutely" in response to MitchT's comment.

Yup, I use the same stretch, just opposite you the same happens with people coming off of Junction 14 trying to get onto the M25. It gets a bit chaotic at times!

[wc98]

Devil2575 said:

Indeed it is.

The issue is though that drivers are always going to make mistakes or just be bloody minded and try to push in. How you respond to that says a lot about your mentality behind the wheel. I personally think that the better driver does everthing they reasonably can to avoid a collision and if that means occasionally yeilding to someone trying to cut in then so be it.

i agree with this, but cannot see how the collision could have been avoided from the lorry drivers side when caravan man drove into the side of him. there was no space,at any time in front of the hgv. why did the old duffer not attempt to get into the gap made by the scenic slowing down ?

[wc98]

V8forweekends said:

Agreed at the point where the crash happens - but the HGV baulked the CRV at an earlier point where it would have been easy (if annoying) to slow and let him in.

looking at the angle the crv is cutting in at 2.03 i think he forgot about the caravan. even if the lorry had stopped dead there and then i think the caravan would have been hitting it.

[kev1974]

Calza said:

Why did that woman decide to go for a jog down the slip road?!

She was in the car behind the truck according to the truck driver's facebook.

Probably proper freaked out at seeing the caravan bloke take on a truck and learn the hard way, almost certainly the shenanigans caused her to have to brake really suddenly as well.