RE: Lotus Evora 400: even lighter, even dearer
Discussion
I remember playing a Need for Speed (I'm sure it was) which featured purely Boxters as a kid.. It was great and i thought it looked great in the flesh too. Then i grew up and heard "Poor mans Porsche" said by multiple 911 owners repeatedly over the years. That sort of mentality upsets me and there shouldn't be infighting like that in a marque - it also adjusted my attitude towards 911 owners to a degree too...
Similar to me saying a Elise is a poor mans Lotus.... it's disgusting.
It amazes me how much the price of certain 911s increases, somewhat artificially - but also incredulously, how dealerships effectively get away with telling potential customers that they aren't good enough for their cars to be put on the list for one... Discrimination is pretty much a no-no these days and yet here we are with Porsche, Ferrari, et al, essentially doing that with no repercussions.
I'm sure no 'prestige' manufacturer wants oiks ragging their cars about in the public eye but it also does something quite sad - it means those cars are rarely seen as they're chucked into carcoons to spend their lives never being used as intended.. Every car i've bought aside from my first (a Corsa 1.1) and second (a 1.8 Astra Sri) has been a 'collectible' to some degree and yet most barely have any significant mileage above 20k on them even now... My Evora is on... 72k.... When i eventually move it on for an Exige V6 i know i'll have gotten my monies worth and more importantly, not wasted a great car on the pretence of resale values...
Similar to me saying a Elise is a poor mans Lotus.... it's disgusting.
It amazes me how much the price of certain 911s increases, somewhat artificially - but also incredulously, how dealerships effectively get away with telling potential customers that they aren't good enough for their cars to be put on the list for one... Discrimination is pretty much a no-no these days and yet here we are with Porsche, Ferrari, et al, essentially doing that with no repercussions.
I'm sure no 'prestige' manufacturer wants oiks ragging their cars about in the public eye but it also does something quite sad - it means those cars are rarely seen as they're chucked into carcoons to spend their lives never being used as intended.. Every car i've bought aside from my first (a Corsa 1.1) and second (a 1.8 Astra Sri) has been a 'collectible' to some degree and yet most barely have any significant mileage above 20k on them even now... My Evora is on... 72k.... When i eventually move it on for an Exige V6 i know i'll have gotten my monies worth and more importantly, not wasted a great car on the pretence of resale values...
Edited by Havoc856 on Friday 19th August 22:02
The 911R to me is the greatest sham Porsche have ever put out. It might be absolutely, brilliantly, biblically good. and probably is. But Porsche decided to make it a limited-run, you-gotta-be-on-the-list-to-get-one type car. That was the end for me. I remember when 996 GT3s were £35k. I worked at a dealer who had three of them. No-one was interested. I drove them all. Great cars at 35k. At 80k? No way. And don't tell me they've suddenly gone up because people have just realised what a great driver's car they are. That's BS. (They are great driver's cars, but that's not the reason for the price jump)
And then you have to say, okay, so if they're all trading for £350K... they're not £130k cars anymore. Same as the Cayman GT4 is not a £65K car anymore. This is ludicrous. Porsche built it as an exercise to please their elitist car speculating types. I wouldn't even care if people were driving them, but they're not - they're bidding on them and flipping them. The antithesis of petrol-head-ness to me. Buy it, drive it and then I don't care what you paid for it. But to buy it with the aim of selling it at a profit? You're taking a car out of the hands of people who could have been able to afford them and enjoy them properly. And if I lived in fantasy-land where I had £350k for a car, would I be buying a 911? Christ no.
And then you have to say, okay, so if they're all trading for £350K... they're not £130k cars anymore. Same as the Cayman GT4 is not a £65K car anymore. This is ludicrous. Porsche built it as an exercise to please their elitist car speculating types. I wouldn't even care if people were driving them, but they're not - they're bidding on them and flipping them. The antithesis of petrol-head-ness to me. Buy it, drive it and then I don't care what you paid for it. But to buy it with the aim of selling it at a profit? You're taking a car out of the hands of people who could have been able to afford them and enjoy them properly. And if I lived in fantasy-land where I had £350k for a car, would I be buying a 911? Christ no.
but jay i heard to get the 911R u have to sign some sort of contract that you wont flip the car for 6 months or 2 years (not sure about 2 years) or something, which is porsche's way of saying DO NOT SPECULATE on our cars. GT3 were for 35k???? i am relatively young but i did not experience that era 
, the 996 tho did not stand the test of time in looks...i dunno how the reaction to it was when it was new (was too young then)
i know why they made it a limited run tho, cuz they put the new GT3 engine in it and now the GT3 doesnt come with a manual, since the GT3 is built for the tracks with PDK, so the 911R will be the best / last naturally aspirated engine with a manual gearbox that will be put out by porsche. (for the foreseeable future)
, the 996 tho did not stand the test of time in looks...i dunno how the reaction to it was when it was new (was too young then)i know why they made it a limited run tho, cuz they put the new GT3 engine in it and now the GT3 doesnt come with a manual, since the GT3 is built for the tracks with PDK, so the 911R will be the best / last naturally aspirated engine with a manual gearbox that will be put out by porsche. (for the foreseeable future)
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Friday 19th August 22:06
rtz62 said:
Personally I'm grateful we have people like Lotus who offer a different answer to the same question asked of Porsche etc. I'm grateful they have their idiosyncrasies that make them different and give them 'character'.
I can't see why anyone could argue with that sentiment.I'd say It might be a different answer to a very similar but slightly different question - I think the key to buying the right car for you is actually working out what the question is in some detail - and this explains why people struggle to understand how someone else can pick a different car to them when their choice is so obviously "right"... It also is a pitfall of journalism, if you apraise a car against a question that it isn't actually trying to answer, you get an odd conclusion.
Havoc856 said:
Looking at this video its interesting working out what they'd do with the roll hoop midway through the passenger section as there is zero rollover protection in the a pillar as with the Elise/Exige.
I'd like to see a roadster but it looks like a fair amount of safety system redesigning would be required.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTLCxASQvY&li...
Doesn't converting a coupe to a cabriolet always require a fair amount of redesigning? I don't think windscreen pillars are ever really safe as an only form of rollover protection. I'd like to see a roadster but it looks like a fair amount of safety system redesigning would be required.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFTLCxASQvY&li...
Lotuslover669 said:
the 996 tho did not stand the test of time in looks...i dunno how the reaction to it was when it was new (was too young then)
I think the Porsche fans of the day were so horrified by the idea of a water-cooled engine that the looks were largely ignored at the time. 
kambites said:
Doesn't converting a coupe to a cabriolet always require a fair amount of redesigning? I don't think windscreen pillars are ever really safe as an only form of rollover protection.
Yeah for a 'normal' car due to the roof being part of the safety system in a rollover. On the Evora it's essentially a dress item. The A pillars aren't structural, in the B is for Build videos he visibly bends the A pillar using it to ever himself out. Thats the same on Elises and Exiges too. To convert a Saloon to a Cabby for instance it requires additional strengthening beams put in to the doors and floor plan in order to retain the rigidity of the chassis.
The Evora...
The front section of the bathtub takes up the task normally associated with the A pillar.
Would need to redesign the B pillar roll cage component or move it forwards to the A pillar.
Edited by Havoc856 on Friday 19th August 22:10
kambites said:
From what I've seen, the Evora convertible will probably be a true cabriolet with no fixed B-pillar so it's going to need some sort of pop-up safety system if it's going to survive a rollover.
Courtesy of Autocar...
Yeah there's zero protection in that photoshop. Unless they fit some impact actuated pop ups behind the headrests.
Impasse said:
kambites said:
From what I've seen, the Evora convertible will probably be a true cabriolet with no fixed B-pillar so it's going to need some sort of pop-up safety system if it's going to survive a rollover.
It'll be a targa.Not sure I see the issue here.. More options givves us more choice. Don't like the exhaust, the price, the carbon? Then don't spec it.
Imagine having no options on a car. Everyone would be driving the same thing.
I write this on every Lotus/Evora thread, but the Evora is a truely superb all round car. I had a series 1 NA for almost 4 years and loved it. Best car I've owned. I'd have been in an S/400 now if it wasn't for the low trade in offer and inevitable depreciation.
Lotus' problem is not enough people know about the Evora, but almost everyone who drives one loves it, many of which actually buy them.
Lotus should be pushing as many test drive days as possible. Get as many bums on seats as they can, let the cars (including the Elise and Exige) sell themselves by people having a good test drive
Imagine having no options on a car. Everyone would be driving the same thing.
I write this on every Lotus/Evora thread, but the Evora is a truely superb all round car. I had a series 1 NA for almost 4 years and loved it. Best car I've owned. I'd have been in an S/400 now if it wasn't for the low trade in offer and inevitable depreciation.
Lotus' problem is not enough people know about the Evora, but almost everyone who drives one loves it, many of which actually buy them.
Lotus should be pushing as many test drive days as possible. Get as many bums on seats as they can, let the cars (including the Elise and Exige) sell themselves by people having a good test drive
Aluminium composite tub with a composite body.
The Evora is very cleanly styled more in line with the S1 Exiges and Elises than the S2. It's also considerably squat and wide in the flesh.
Partly because it's something like 4" wider than an Elise/Exige.
It's an unfortunate fact that lotus get compared to Porsche, even though it really is apples and oranges to a degree.
Porsche has far greater money
Porsche has a huge support team comprising of other manufacturers in partnership to apply to R&D, sales etc.
Porsche has far greater reach in regards to sales and potential customers due to its prolific name.
Not happy with the article. I'm sure if it were a Porsche GT3 then PH would be "ONLY £1350 for a lithium battery!".
Upsettingly immature penmanship by PH and starkly contrasting to Evos methodical and supportive yetcritical approach to their TVR articles.
After all - this is a small scale British manufacturer trying to keep afloat in a world surrounded by companies with massive support, money and partnerships (Porsche).
News can be supportive and critical at the same time - but it should be applied equally amongst the marques... Looking forwards to the next Porsche article where PH go ahead and do exactly what I've predicted... #yawn
The Evora is very cleanly styled more in line with the S1 Exiges and Elises than the S2. It's also considerably squat and wide in the flesh.
Partly because it's something like 4" wider than an Elise/Exige.
It's an unfortunate fact that lotus get compared to Porsche, even though it really is apples and oranges to a degree.
Porsche has far greater money
Porsche has a huge support team comprising of other manufacturers in partnership to apply to R&D, sales etc.
Porsche has far greater reach in regards to sales and potential customers due to its prolific name.
Not happy with the article. I'm sure if it were a Porsche GT3 then PH would be "ONLY £1350 for a lithium battery!".
Upsettingly immature penmanship by PH and starkly contrasting to Evos methodical and supportive yetcritical approach to their TVR articles.
After all - this is a small scale British manufacturer trying to keep afloat in a world surrounded by companies with massive support, money and partnerships (Porsche).
News can be supportive and critical at the same time - but it should be applied equally amongst the marques... Looking forwards to the next Porsche article where PH go ahead and do exactly what I've predicted... #yawn
Havoc856 said:
It's an unfortunate fact that lotus get compared to Porsche, even though it really is apples and oranges to a degree.
Porsche has far greater money
Porsche has a huge support team comprising of other manufacturers in partnership to apply to R&D, sales etc.
Porsche has far greater reach in regards to sales and potential customers due to its prolific name.
Not happy with the article. I'm sure if it were a Porsche GT3 then PH would be "ONLY £1350 for a lithium battery!".
Upsettingly immature penmanship by PH and starkly contrasting to Evos methodical and supportive yetcritical approach to their TVR articles.
After all - this is a small scale British manufacturer trying to keep afloat in a world surrounded by companies with massive support, money and partnerships (Porsche).
News can be supportive and critical at the same time - but it should be applied equally amongst the marques... Looking forwards to the next Porsche article where PH go ahead and do exactly what I've predicted... #yawn
Its not porsche's fault bro.Porsche has far greater money
Porsche has a huge support team comprising of other manufacturers in partnership to apply to R&D, sales etc.
Porsche has far greater reach in regards to sales and potential customers due to its prolific name.
Not happy with the article. I'm sure if it were a Porsche GT3 then PH would be "ONLY £1350 for a lithium battery!".
Upsettingly immature penmanship by PH and starkly contrasting to Evos methodical and supportive yetcritical approach to their TVR articles.
After all - this is a small scale British manufacturer trying to keep afloat in a world surrounded by companies with massive support, money and partnerships (Porsche).
News can be supportive and critical at the same time - but it should be applied equally amongst the marques... Looking forwards to the next Porsche article where PH go ahead and do exactly what I've predicted... #yawn
- not porsches problem bro
-again not porsches problem bro
-why repeat myself again not porsches problem bro.
when you play with the big boys you will be judged against them. no saftey net, no cushion bro.
not happy with the article? too bad bibs just cant straight delete it, yes porsche brand name is more expensive than lotus bro, deal with it on TLF. thus they can demand more for the same product, why does an LV shoe cost 1000% more than a nike? can nike make a $10,000 shoe and if it did will it sell?
excellent penmanship mr.Richard, keep up the good work and don't let the fanboys dissuade you.
small scale manufacturer? again why should he cushion his opinion for that? you can always go on TLF and cry us a river.
yes watch vigilantly for the next porsche article, its not like reviewers just took a dump on the porsche 718 because it has a 4 cylinder engine instead of a 6, do you see porsche fans moaning and crying about it?
but you Lotus fans are a special breed of nasty.
you remind me of an example of a short sighted kid stepping into a boxing ring and telling his opponent "please don't punch me in the face sir, i wear glasses" ... guess where you are gonna get punched.....the rules of the game are the rules, there are no special exemptions or provisions . because you are short sighted, or because you are small, or because you are british, or because you are limited. or because you wear glasses.
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Friday 19th August 23:20
Edited by Lotuslover669 on Friday 19th August 23:39
Ladies and Gents...
I had finished with my arguments (not fanboy level but still...) regarding the articles bias and returned to calm and reasoned discussion with the masses and enjoying the general run of things. But.. having just received a message i felt the need to warn everyone off as to whom they are responding to... or might be responding to... and understand something of the history and why its a little bit... dangerously focussed.
Just for clarity - as it's been noted LotusLover669 (Aka Koko) has a bit of an axe to grind with Lotus and TLF.. This comes from the thread that he started on 25 July 2016 (26 days ago) here:
http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/83721-l...
As you'll see there's a fairly obnoxious opening post containing a screenshot of another obnoxious post to a dealer in UAE on Facebook for all and sundry to see.
Then begins the tame and some very informative responses from members who see the obnoxious post and the obvious issues and corner it boxes the OP into... This causes LotusLover669 (Aka Koko) to begin the assault on precinct Lotus.. I'd challenge any forum base to not respond in the manner members do if someone wades in trolling like is seen here on any forum.
His immediate comparison was lotus vs Porsche following the information given to him being that he'd be paying £93,000 for a 400.
Despite the angle he comes at on the posts, members reply as best they can and try to offer different causes for the price hike. At this point (page 2) members begin to tire with the conversation going around in circles clearly pointing back to 911-land and him winding up members. Even baiting moderators and breaking forum guidelines/rules (which aren't ruthless at all).
Two members give it their best... explaining the price increase is due to a comprehensive servicing package thats set for UAE due to heat and dust etc... They explain that you don't buy a lotus with your head - i think everyone in the motoring universe understands that... Hell my missus does and she refers to cars by their colour (yes i know, I'm trying to help the poor woman).
Then he clearly indicates his intention was to buy the Porsche regardless and that all 3 pages of winding up and baiting of individuals actually trying to help him is for nothing other than trolling.
Individuals obviously pissed off with the overall attitude, flagrant abuse of the guidelines and rules of posting and trolling kick back as hard as they're getting.
In amongst it all i wade in with calling him a cockwomble.. which he so clearly is.
The forum has a brief moment of reflection on how we were trolled so easily and whether responses could have been tempered... my cockwomble accusation included. It is at this point which we see yet another account set up by him go active and post "as a friend".
This is probably the only point which i can understand my response especially as poor - it didn't add anything to the topic - i was shocked at how obvious the obvious troll was and how insistent he was at going onto a lotus forum and basically saying Lotus are s
t he was. Honestly - it's pretty outstanding an effort and his cockwomblishness cheered me up on a st day.
Anyway... he has his Porsche, we have our Loti... life goes on..
....apparently not....
This thread holds all the required evidence of his shenanigans today and his focussed intent on attempting to dissuade potential purchases of Loti..
Then i receive this in my inbox tonight....
Note the mimicking of the username of the individual who banned him from TLF for trolling hard... Note the insistence on calling him out on here earlier in the thread...
KOKO Under a New Username Baiting TLF by Simon Cox, on Flickr
He is referencing a thread i made on TLF today as i was trying to work out who and why someone seemed so intent on bad mouthing one of the best forums i've been on in a damn long time and why he was specifically calling out one of our guys needlessly.
So, Koko/LotusLover... I do honestly mean this:
I hope you enjoy your Porsche, you utter utter cock womble. Please stop baiting and disrupting general conversation on forums across the internet. No one is interested in your tirade and targeted abuse of individuals.
Mods... I'll take a suspension if need be, but i just want to ensure the community don't have to blindly deal with such an intent and dangerous troll... We've seen the likes of them on PH before too... and they really damage the environment.
Now i'm really out - better things to do like enjoy life, prep the car for a trackday and not get trolled.
PS. TLF guys, sorry if this upsets you, i'll take the relevant hit on our side too.
NOW LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC
I had finished with my arguments (not fanboy level but still...) regarding the articles bias and returned to calm and reasoned discussion with the masses and enjoying the general run of things. But.. having just received a message i felt the need to warn everyone off as to whom they are responding to... or might be responding to... and understand something of the history and why its a little bit... dangerously focussed.
Just for clarity - as it's been noted LotusLover669 (Aka Koko) has a bit of an axe to grind with Lotus and TLF.. This comes from the thread that he started on 25 July 2016 (26 days ago) here:
http://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/83721-l...
As you'll see there's a fairly obnoxious opening post containing a screenshot of another obnoxious post to a dealer in UAE on Facebook for all and sundry to see.
Then begins the tame and some very informative responses from members who see the obnoxious post and the obvious issues and corner it boxes the OP into... This causes LotusLover669 (Aka Koko) to begin the assault on precinct Lotus.. I'd challenge any forum base to not respond in the manner members do if someone wades in trolling like is seen here on any forum.
His immediate comparison was lotus vs Porsche following the information given to him being that he'd be paying £93,000 for a 400.
Despite the angle he comes at on the posts, members reply as best they can and try to offer different causes for the price hike. At this point (page 2) members begin to tire with the conversation going around in circles clearly pointing back to 911-land and him winding up members. Even baiting moderators and breaking forum guidelines/rules (which aren't ruthless at all).
Two members give it their best... explaining the price increase is due to a comprehensive servicing package thats set for UAE due to heat and dust etc... They explain that you don't buy a lotus with your head - i think everyone in the motoring universe understands that... Hell my missus does and she refers to cars by their colour (yes i know, I'm trying to help the poor woman).
Then he clearly indicates his intention was to buy the Porsche regardless and that all 3 pages of winding up and baiting of individuals actually trying to help him is for nothing other than trolling.
Individuals obviously pissed off with the overall attitude, flagrant abuse of the guidelines and rules of posting and trolling kick back as hard as they're getting.
In amongst it all i wade in with calling him a cockwomble.. which he so clearly is.
The forum has a brief moment of reflection on how we were trolled so easily and whether responses could have been tempered... my cockwomble accusation included. It is at this point which we see yet another account set up by him go active and post "as a friend".
This is probably the only point which i can understand my response especially as poor - it didn't add anything to the topic - i was shocked at how obvious the obvious troll was and how insistent he was at going onto a lotus forum and basically saying Lotus are s
t he was. Honestly - it's pretty outstanding an effort and his cockwomblishness cheered me up on a st day.Anyway... he has his Porsche, we have our Loti... life goes on..
....apparently not....
This thread holds all the required evidence of his shenanigans today and his focussed intent on attempting to dissuade potential purchases of Loti..
Then i receive this in my inbox tonight....
Note the mimicking of the username of the individual who banned him from TLF for trolling hard... Note the insistence on calling him out on here earlier in the thread...
KOKO Under a New Username Baiting TLF by Simon Cox, on FlickrHe is referencing a thread i made on TLF today as i was trying to work out who and why someone seemed so intent on bad mouthing one of the best forums i've been on in a damn long time and why he was specifically calling out one of our guys needlessly.
So, Koko/LotusLover... I do honestly mean this:
I hope you enjoy your Porsche, you utter utter cock womble. Please stop baiting and disrupting general conversation on forums across the internet. No one is interested in your tirade and targeted abuse of individuals.
Mods... I'll take a suspension if need be, but i just want to ensure the community don't have to blindly deal with such an intent and dangerous troll... We've seen the likes of them on PH before too... and they really damage the environment.
Now i'm really out - better things to do like enjoy life, prep the car for a trackday and not get trolled.
PS. TLF guys, sorry if this upsets you, i'll take the relevant hit on our side too.
NOW LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC
Edited by Havoc856 on Friday 19th August 23:55
This is getting odd now.
For all Porsches resources, they made cars for 10 years with a pretty serious reliability issue.
They have generally lost feel as the newer models have come out.
They make SUVs pretending to be sports cars.
And Jesus yes, we hear people whinge and bh and moan on both sides of both arguments.
And despite the things written above. Porsche make wonderful cars.
I don't know why you find it so hard to understand that these manufacturers are aiming at slightly different things, I said above that my Lotus is very clearly flawed (in areas that I'm happy to have flaws). You seems convinced that Lotus owners are deluded that the cars are better at everything... No we're not. Most will have bought them being well aware of the compromises and being more than happy that the strengths more than make up for them. But why on earth do,you care so much about the cars that others chose?
Why are you so determined to be right, and for Lotus to be wrong? Why are you being as sycophantic towards Porsche and the author of the original article whitest complaining that you think you see this trait in others towards Lotus despite many explanations to the contrary?
It's really very odd.
For all Porsches resources, they made cars for 10 years with a pretty serious reliability issue.
They have generally lost feel as the newer models have come out.
They make SUVs pretending to be sports cars.
And Jesus yes, we hear people whinge and b
h and moan on both sides of both arguments. And despite the things written above. Porsche make wonderful cars.
I don't know why you find it so hard to understand that these manufacturers are aiming at slightly different things, I said above that my Lotus is very clearly flawed (in areas that I'm happy to have flaws). You seems convinced that Lotus owners are deluded that the cars are better at everything... No we're not. Most will have bought them being well aware of the compromises and being more than happy that the strengths more than make up for them. But why on earth do,you care so much about the cars that others chose?
Why are you so determined to be right, and for Lotus to be wrong? Why are you being as sycophantic towards Porsche and the author of the original article whitest complaining that you think you see this trait in others towards Lotus despite many explanations to the contrary?
It's really very odd.
actually thank you for linking my article, i made it no secret that i am Koko i even signed it in one of the posts. and thank you for shedding light on the forum post i started, the PH viewers can see that i responded to the suggestions as is, did not spam pictures of burning vehicles, nor did I claim to urinate on mention of a certain brand, i responded in kind. nor did i call drivers of a certain brand porkers... to those respectful i responded respectfully, to those with issues i used the eye-for-an-eye methodology. I don't care if you are the admin or the site owner, people respect other peoples opinions, they do not swear at them or insult them because they disagree, thank you for showing your immaturity both here and on the TLF forum (where you are protected by the site administrator) by calling me a cockwomble. you really proved yourself to be something else, even going to the degree of faking accounts???? yes the porsche 911 is cheaper in the UAE due to The Lotus management greed, yes the Lotus is not selling as well in the outside market, their biggest bet now is on the US market and on their SUV (lets hope it works, or bye bye Lotus) not to mention that when the site administrator gets invovled and edits or deletes your posts it really shows the "final" product. anyways this got way sidetracked the topic was "Lotus price point for options" kindly stick to the topic and produce coherent arguments to back your statements rather than the ones we got used to "we are small, we are custom build, we are british, we have a smaller budget" etc etc...
to me the 911s was the sensible purchase both in fun factor and in price point (blame your lotus management for that) , i respect most of the TLF forum members but some of you are so entrenched in your bubble it is sickening.
to me the 911s was the sensible purchase both in fun factor and in price point (blame your lotus management for that) , i respect most of the TLF forum members but some of you are so entrenched in your bubble it is sickening.
Impasse said:
So basically you're just st stirring cock?
again with the insults, no i recognized a pattern of behaviour that i witnessed first hand on the lotus forums targeting this article and its writer, and decided enough is enough, you are not gonna harass a writer on a 3rd party website just because you dont like his opinion.t stirring cock?and quit it with the insults this is really getting out of hand....control your emotions plz.
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