[stuart b]

[quote=R_U_LOCAL
*Goes off to look for something else common between the F1 and Reg's car*

Is it true, then, that the reflective coating on the mirrors comes from the same supplier?

*Clutching at straws*
[/quote]

Perhaps they both have Rolls Royce VANOS actuators (probably not the right word)?

Stuart

[warmfuzzies]

Flemke,

Any of the work performed by Cartridge on your car?

Regards

kevin.

[flemke]

warmfuzzies said:

Flemke,

Any of the work performed by Cartridge on your car?

Regards

kevin.

Kevin,

I'm afraid that I don't know the name "Cartridge" in relation to automotive technology and fettling.
I am not sure that, if they had done work, I would be comfortable confirming the fact, but in this case that is not a dilemma that I need to contemplate.

Cheers.

[iain_cam]

Flemke,

I don't know if this question has been asked before, so feel free to kindly shoot me down in flames if it has, but what is your opinion on the 'supercars cannot be used in Great Britain due to the law and traffic' argument?

There seems to be a lot of this being bartered about, presumably due to Richard Porter's column in evo last month, but few people who comment actually own a supercar themselves. Do you feel that you can still use it how you wish, and has this changed since you first purchased the car?

Thanks in advance,
Iain

[flemke]

iain_cam said:

Flemke,

I don't know if this question has been asked before, so feel free to kindly shoot me down in flames if it has, but what is your opinion on the 'supercars cannot be used in Great Britain due to the law and traffic' argument?

There seems to be a lot of this being bartered about, presumably due to Richard Porter's column in evo last month, but few people who comment actually own a supercar themselves. Do you feel that you can still use it how you wish, and has this changed since you first purchased the car?

Thanks in advance,
Iain

Iain,

At least on this thread, the only person who would get shot down in flames would be he who tried to shoot someone else down in flames.

Love, peace and happiness, bro.


Supercars in Britain? I think that Richard is quite right. There are several problems with such cars in Britain:

- Traffic density. Amongst EU states, England has the second-highest population density. Holland has the highest. Density is somewhat less a problem in the north, but southern England's population density is even higher than Holland's.
- The criminalisation of speed. No need to go into detail on this subject, which has been covered comprehensively in SP&L, but the way that authorities think about and deal with vehicles that "make progress" has become highly politicised in the last few years. This is probably at the expense of safety, but we know how futile it usually is to get in the way of a PC steamroller.
- The growing view that going faster than another car - even if one is well within both the actual speed limit and the limits of safety - is anti-social. How often have any of us overtaken, whilst never getting even up to the speed limit, another car that is pootling along at 47 in an NSL, only to get a fusillade of flashing lights from behind after we have completed the manoeuvre? It's pathetic, but it's reality.
- The utterly disgraceful state of British roads. The authorities responsible for this ought to hang their heads in shame.
To the contrary, however, there was a recent post on PH linking to an assertion by a lowlife scumbag councillor in, IIRC, Teeside. This was following the tragic death of a young lad who had lost control of his scooter because he had hit a pothole. The lad was thrown into the path of an oncoming vehicle, which injured him fatally.
In the link, the worthless swine councillor in whose LA the lad had been killed defended the contemptible state of local roads on the basis that, the worse the roads were, the more slowly vehicles would be obliged to travel. Ergo, according to his pea-brain thinking, horrible roads were actually a safety measure for which one should be thankful.
This particular clown deserves to be tarred and feathered. Beyond his repellent little world, however, the sad fact is that Britain's roads are in terrible condition, notwithstanding mild winters that are kind to the asphalt.
- The speedbump pandemic.

All of this obviously militates against driving, and especially so against cars that only "come alive" (I think that was Richard's apt phrase) at higher speeds.

Take the Carrera GT. Its downforce starts to make itself felt at maybe 80 mph. That is, before you being to enjoy the effects of the aerodynamics, you've already broken the speed limit for any British road.
The limits of lateral grip on these cars can be quite substantial. You can't really "explore the limits of grip", or however you want to think of it, on much of any British roads without creating a danger to other road users.
Asssuming you're trying to explore those limits within the speed limit, you're now talking about taking a bend at, say, 55 that most persons would take at, say, 35. In most such instances, the reason that a normal car can only take the bend at 35 is because it is quite sharp, which usually means that the view is limited, which means that you do not actually have the view to justify going 20 mph faster than you normally would do simply because the car will make it around the bend without understeering off.

Speed limits? In 2nd gear the F1 will do 95 mph. There isn't much scope for using all the performance, is there?

This brings us to the advantages of light cars with small engines: Ariels, West Hams, Rockets. The beauty of these cars is that you get loads of driving feedback, and the exhilaration of feeling like you're going quickly, whilst not really going that fast. (This is not to mention the additional safety benefits of greater nimbleness and shorter braking distances.)

If you get a "supercar" for the circuit, fine, except that with the NIMBYs poisoning the circuit driving environment, that option is less feasible than it ought to be. Also, why spent £X on your supercar for trackdays when you could get equal circuit performance at a quarter of the cost with a proper race car? You don't need a plush leather interior and an exotic candy-metallic paint job to knock out 40 fun laps at Brands. Race cars are more tunable and you worry a lot less about bending them.

As I said, I think that Richard is right, at least as regards driving these cars in the UK. On the Continent, it is a somewhat different story.

[Silent1]

Flemke,

What do you think of rally derived cars, a-la integrale etc? As they can be fun at legal speeds on british roads.

[flemke]

Silent1 said:

Flemke,

What do you think of rally derived cars, a-la integrale etc? As they can be fun at legal speeds on british roads.

As with most subjects, any opinion from me would come from a position of complete ignorance.
I would say, however, that I don't care for 4WD, and a car's physical appearance makes a difference to me, so in general I don't go to those motoring regions.

[Silent1]

flemke said:

Silent1 said:

Flemke,

What do you think of rally derived cars, a-la integrale etc? As they can be fun at legal speeds on british roads.

As with most subjects, any opinion from me would come from a position of complete ignorance.
I would say, however, that I don't care for 4WD, and a car's physical appearance makes a difference to me, so in general I don't go to those motoring regions.

Fair enough Are there any cars you have experience in that are fun at legal speeds in this country?

[flemke]

Silent1 said:

flemke said:

Silent1 said:

Flemke,

What do you think of rally derived cars, a-la integrale etc? As they can be fun at legal speeds on british roads.

As with most subjects, any opinion from me would come from a position of complete ignorance.
I would say, however, that I don't care for 4WD, and a car's physical appearance makes a difference to me, so in general I don't go to those motoring regions.

Fair enough Are there any cars you have experience in that are fun at legal speeds in this country?

Apart from the ones that I mentioned, perhaps an Elise, or maybe a pushbike (oh, you said "cars",didn't you?) In addition, one could talk about the older stuff.
My experience in such things is rather limited, but any car with a nice engine, narrow tyres, mediocre brakes and a lousy suspension will keep one's life interesting.

[Silent1]

flemke said:

Silent1 said:

flemke said:

Silent1 said:

Flemke,

What do you think of rally derived cars, a-la integrale etc? As they can be fun at legal speeds on british roads.

As with most subjects, any opinion from me would come from a position of complete ignorance.
I would say, however, that I don't care for 4WD, and a car's physical appearance makes a difference to me, so in general I don't go to those motoring regions.

Fair enough Are there any cars you have experience in that are fun at legal speeds in this country?

Apart from the ones that I mentioned, perhaps an Elise, or maybe a pushbike (oh, you said "cars",didn't you?) In addition, one could talk about the older stuff.
My experience in such things is rather limited, but any car with a nice engine, narrow tyres, mediocre brakes and a lousy suspension will keep one's life interesting.

Excellent, by that reckoning a 2cv with a decent engine would be a giggle

[luckyp]

Stick flemke in a Ultima GTR. Slap 550bhp (in my case) or 650 in a mates, and see how he feels about supercars on British roads. We had 12 in convoy yesterday, and the vibe, sound and site, was truely fantastic.

Flemke, come play with mine if you like.

To be fair, chalk and cheese. But we Ultimators feel we have a lttle to do wiv the F1!!

Lucky.

[flemke]

luckyp said:

Stick flemke in a Ultima GTR. Slap 550bhp (in my case) or 650 in a mates, and see how he feels about supercars on British roads. We had 12 in convoy yesterday, and the vibe, sound and site, was truely fantastic.

Flemke, come play with mine if you like.

To be fair, chalk and cheese. But we Ultimators feel we have a lttle to do wiv the F1!!

Lucky.

I quite agree that the Ultima is a fine package, although I don't see how it would be more suited for the British driving environment than some other "supercars" would be. As I saw a Noble yesterday I reflected on how difficult it has proved to be for small manufacturers of large-engined British sports cars to sustain a business - with the exception of Ultima.

On your other point, and to take nothing whatever away from the Ultima, which as I suggested is a really neat thing, I have never seen much of a direct connection between the Ultima and the F1.
It is true that McL. picked up a couple of Ultima chassis for testing mules, as they experimented with carbon brakes, a central driving position, and other things. I'm not sure, however, how much they learned or derived from the Ultima per se. (Which is not to say that they couldn't have learned things if they had been open to the possibility.)

[RobDickinson]

flemke said:

I would say, however, that I don't care for 4WD, and a car's physical appearance makes a difference to me, so in general I don't go to those motoring regions.

The 959 being an exception I guess?

Personaly I've had as much fun getting the 'most' out of a less capable car than some far more capable machines anyhow. ot that I've driven anything like the F1.

Theres roads & times you can use a fairly mental machine int he UK, but not (typicaly)legaly and not usualy close to home unless your lucky in where you live.

But the UK is definatly more sueprcar friendly than NZ, 100kph speed limits, overzelous police, and roads that'll typicaly kill you if you get it wrong when going very fast. Hell the number of stories of people being found weeks after a crash down a ditch, on major routes is scary. Again a caterfield type, or mx5 is probably the best tool for NZ's roads. Doesnt stop people buying M5's or 599's tho.

[luckyp]

flemke said:

It is true that McL. picked up a couple of Ultima chassis for testing mules....

Albert and Edward I believe.

..........back to me onions....

Lucky

[martind]

flemke said:

v15ben said:

hurstg01 said:

Orange longtail F1? I'm surprised, I have good knowledge that Mclaren won't allow a roadgoing GTR longtail; perhaps it was a Mosler? As for the red/maroon F1 on the M40, that'll be Rowan Atkinson going home. Good spot!!!

Not sure about longtail, but isn't the other McLaren F1 on PH owned by Mr Bridger an orange one?

There is more than one road-legal F1, either GTR-conversion or standard with aero kit, that's been done up in orange and grey a la the LMs.
The factory's position is that the '97 GTR is sufficiently different from the '95-6s that, unlike the earlier cars, it cannot be made road-legal for the UK.
There is another school of thought that begs to differ, and I recently had a conversation with a '97 owner who assured me that he was on the verge of legalising his independently.

Nobody's mentioned the F1 GT's which were factory road legal full aero package long tails . So the 'spot' of one on the M40 could have been a non converted F1 long tail.

[hurstg01]

martind said:

flemke said:

v15ben said:

hurstg01 said:

Orange longtail F1? I'm surprised, I have good knowledge that Mclaren won't allow a roadgoing GTR longtail; perhaps it was a Mosler? As for the red/maroon F1 on the M40, that'll be Rowan Atkinson going home. Good spot!!!

Not sure about longtail, but isn't the other McLaren F1 on PH owned by Mr Bridger an orange one?

There is more than one road-legal F1, either GTR-conversion or standard with aero kit, that's been done up in orange and grey a la the LMs.
The factory's position is that the '97 GTR is sufficiently different from the '95-6s that, unlike the earlier cars, it cannot be made road-legal for the UK.
There is another school of thought that begs to differ, and I recently had a conversation with a '97 owner who assured me that he was on the verge of legalising his independently.

Nobody's mentioned the F1 GT's which were factory road legal full aero package long tails . So the 'spot' of one on the M40 could have been a non converted F1 long tail.

Not in orange, there were only 3 and they were red (ex Japan) green (Mclarens own car) and black (Brunei) and they weren't full aero package as the rear wing was omitted

Edited by hurstg01 on Monday 7th May 19:18

[flemke]

RobDickinson said:

flemke said:

I would say, however, that I don't care for 4WD, and a car's physical appearance makes a difference to me, so in general I don't go to those motoring regions.

The 959 being an exception I guess?

Personaly I've had as much fun getting the 'most' out of a less capable car than some far more capable machines anyhow. ot that I've driven anything like the F1.

Theres roads & times you can use a fairly mental machine int he UK, but not (typicaly)legaly and not usualy close to home unless your lucky in where you live.

But the UK is definatly more sueprcar friendly than NZ, 100kph speed limits, overzelous police, and roads that'll typicaly kill you if you get it wrong when going very fast. Hell the number of stories of people being found weeks after a crash down a ditch, on major routes is scary. Again a caterfield type, or mx5 is probably the best tool for NZ's roads. Doesnt stop people buying M5's or 599's tho.

Rob,

We have heard horror stories about Oz and New Zealand, which, whenever I have queried a motoring enthusiast from those parts about the enforcement mentality, have always been confirmed.

The 959 is very handsome thing, it's got what is perhaps Porsche's greatest engine (in the context of its time) from the 956/962, and it occupies a special place in Porsche history.
On the other hand, its 4WD, as you observe, it feels heavy and somewhat sloppy at the back, and then there is the turbo issue.
I have explored changing it from 4WD to RWD, but that would be complicated, and would hit its value whilst not transforming the car to another level of driving satisfaction. Therefore I've kept it standard (okay, maybe we added a few ponies, but that was unavoidable).
A 959 might be a crude version of a Veyron: a fine technological achievement, a very nice ride, but well short of a great driving experience.

[350wedge]

hurstg01 said:

martind said:

flemke said:

v15ben said:

hurstg01 said:

Orange longtail F1? I'm surprised, I have good knowledge that Mclaren won't allow a roadgoing GTR longtail; perhaps it was a Mosler? As for the red/maroon F1 on the M40, that'll be Rowan Atkinson going home. Good spot!!!

Not sure about longtail, but isn't the other McLaren F1 on PH owned by Mr Bridger an orange one?

There is more than one road-legal F1, either GTR-conversion or standard with aero kit, that's been done up in orange and grey a la the LMs.
The factory's position is that the '97 GTR is sufficiently different from the '95-6s that, unlike the earlier cars, it cannot be made road-legal for the UK.
There is another school of thought that begs to differ, and I recently had a conversation with a '97 owner who assured me that he was on the verge of legalising his independently.

Nobody's mentioned the F1 GT's which were factory road legal full aero package long tails . So the 'spot' of one on the M40 could have been a non converted F1 long tail.

Not in orange, there were only 3 and they were red (ex Japan) green (Mclarens own car) and black (Brunei) and they weren't full aero package as the rear wing was omitted

Edited by hurstg01 on Monday 7th May 19:18

Here is possibly said car. I took this pic at Goodwood FOS in 2005. I think its an ex racer as i do remember and have pics of an orange F1 longtail racing in the British GT series at Brands. It ran pretty much plain orange in race trim, no sponsors logo's..... In the same race was the EMKA Longtail McLaren which was significantly faster!!

This is definitely road legal, have scrubbed out No Plate tho....

Edited to say i've just spotted the hefty rollcage inside so this is def the racer I saw at Brands Hatch

Edited by 350wedge on Tuesday 8th May 19:12

[hurstg01]

^^ It's not road registered; last time I looked the reg plate was linked to another of Cars Internationals cars, an RS6 Avant. No F1 longtail GTR has been successfully converted from race-going to road-going, and the Factory won't allow it.

As a side note, this F1, chassis #27R, was once owned by a crook by the name of James Munroe (as well as an F1 roadcar). He was an accountant who forged invoices for numerous ghost companies to fund his racing (or something along those lines)

Edited by hurstg01 on Tuesday 8th May 19:29

[350wedge]

As an aside from that, here gratuitously is a pic of a Racer that is definitely road legal !!