RE: SOTW: Rover 825i Sterling

[Balmoral Green]

SWoll said:

TBH it would appear from responses that a number of posters on here agree with me, whereas I have yet to see a post that agrees with BG as far as I am aware.

Perhaps that shows the difference in perception between the prospective buyers of a product and it's salesforce?

I'm quite happy for a bit of good natured back & forth. But don't get insulting or take the piss.

[SWoll]

Balmoral Green said:

SWoll said:

TBH it would appear from responses that a number of posters on here agree with me, whereas I have yet to see a post that agrees with BG as far as I am aware.

Perhaps that shows the difference in perception between the prospective buyers of a product and it's salesforce?

I'm quite happy for a bit of good natured back & forth. But don't get insulting or take the piss.

As long as you believe you have the upper hand it would appear...

I haven't seen anyone agree with your suggestion that Rover didn't attempt to position itself as a more luxury brand than Ford/Vauxhall, and my comment regarding customer vs salesforce perception seems to be fair based on other posters replies vs your take on it.

Nothing insulting there as far as I can see, and certainly was intended as such. Perhaps if you have taken offence you need to question why?

[eein]

My dad had a bit of an 800 addiction. Following the demise of his Austin Ambassador, he went on to own a string of 6 Rover 800s. Three 820, one 827 then two 825s. Each one he put between 100 and 200 thousand miles on without any serious problems. The last one of was one the last handful to be made - so full leather interior and even a CD player. All bought approx 3 years old for between £3k and £6k. All sold for near scrap.

Reliable apart from one in which he cooked two engines, but he blaims himself for that as he knew the engine temperature sensor had failed but reckoned it wouldn't matter. After the second reconditioned engine from a dodgy Glasgow 'specialist' garage he conceded and fixed the temp sensor too.

The main thing that annoyed him was the starter motor which has plastic gears in it's internals. They used to fail easily within a year. He got so good at replacing them he could do it alone while in his work suit in the morning when the car failed to start in less than one hour, drive to the local dealer, get a replacement under warranty, refit in their car park, get to work only 2 hours late.

The best one was the 827. It was white and he always had cheap Halfords roof bars fitted. These were black with two bits of bright orange foam a third of the way in from either side. Driving along the Motorway at over 100 like this with full lights on in the middle of the day was a sure fire way to get the traffic to move in!

He now has one of the last made MG ZT-Ts and he's in utter panic as there is no natural successor to this. He still hopes for the resurrection of British Leyland!

Edited by eein on Friday 2nd December 18:38

[Morningside]

I still think the 827 fastback was to bring back Rover fans from the SD1 stable.

[J4CKO]

I had an Audi 100 in the same period and sadly it was better, loved that "CD 30", model, there you go Garlick, a hint for a SOTW, assuming you haven't done one, probably the best car I have owned really, relative to the time it was owned.

[66comanche]

I'd agree with Swoll that Rover was seen by many as a slight cut above Ford/Vauxhall, the family has had quite a few and to compare say my Astra of late 80's vintage with a 214SLi of similar age there was a big difference in the interiors of the two, the Rover with fake wood and nice switches etc, the Rovers always tended to have fussy exteriors too, various bits of moulded trim, bits of chrome etc. Always remember all of our Rovers being very comfy and relaxing places to be, quiet, even the smaller ones somewhat ferry like in the corners. However they were not very reliable as a whole, certainly seemed that if you have a bad 'un, you really would suffer.

300 really needs to stop being so defensive, I have visions of him being unable to sleep, muttering 'prick....prick...' because someone on the internetz slated a Rover/MG/Yank tank.

[ITech]

SWoll said:

As long as you believe you have the upper hand it would appear...

I haven't seen anyone agree with your suggestion that Rover didn't attempt to position itself as a more luxury brand than Ford/Vauxhall, and my comment regarding customer vs salesforce perception seems to be fair based on other posters replies vs your take on it.

Nothing insulting there as far as I can see, and certainly was intended as such. Perhaps if you have taken offence you need to question why?

Totally agree with all you have said. That last statement from BG was pretty superior sounding and totally off the mark imo.

There is no doubt Rover tried to position itself as above Ford and Vauxhaul, they tried to trade on their image in the 50's, 60's and to some extent early 70's when they made some good cars like the P5 and P6. Indeed, I have heard former Rover marketing execs state this as the reason for the wood, leather and chrome grill on the mk2 800 etc. I didn't really work, but they did try to convince people it was a BMW rival at the time. There is absolutely no comparison in quality, as you have said.

[Cock Womble 7]

Fond memories. I worked for Swan National in the early '90s, delivering hire cars. Our usual bread and butter stuff was Escorts, Orions, the odd Granada, Rover 814s and, occasionally, some big Rover with "Vitesse" written on the back. These were usually destined for some big-wig at Kodak House in Hemel.

We were based in Park Street (at the BP garage just off the A414/M10 roundabout) and the lightly-policed M10 (as was) was always our private little test-track.

[VPower]

eein said:

He now has one of the last made MG ZT-Ts and he's in utter panic as there is no natural successor to this. He still hopes for the resurrection of British Leyland!

Edited by eein on Friday 2nd December 18:38

Time for a Jaguar? Well after a ZT 260 first?

[vrtrooper]

So, what would Alan drive now ?

Black BMW 520D

[B'stard Child]

I like how SOTW threads polarise opinions it makes for an interesting journey of experience (I am always intesteded in some of the details that PH'rs with knowledge on specific marques add to a thread) but I guess the consequence of that is when SOTW threads going go like this.....

Come on guys (and girls) can we keep it on a level that is at least means it's not umpleasant to read when you aren't involved in the "banter"

I've got a Rover 800 related story to add myself - trouble is I need to find some pictures and hopefully that should allow time to get rid of the bad taste.

[The Leaper]

I had a Rover 825i manual as a company car for three years. It had the Honda engine. Really excellent trouble free car, although I hit a pot hole and the front right suspension split in two so that one part was attached to the car and the rest was swinging separately! Really good, comfy, roomy vehicle, and looked quite classy at the time.

Followed it with a Vauhall Carlton 3.0 GSI manual in fire engine red: now that was a real motor! Kept that for 3 1/2 years and did 130,000 miles, virtually trouble free.

R

[Petrolhead_Rich]

I'm surprised the dashboard hasn't popped up above the clocks, every 800 I've seen has a round dashboard over it's square dials!

Good cars, comfy and wallowly, but good!!

[SWoll]

B'stard Child said:

I like how SOTW threads polarise opinions it makes for an interesting journey of experience (I am always intesteded in some of the details that PH'rs with knowledge on specific marques add to a thread) but I guess the consequence of that is when SOTW threads going go like this.....

Come on guys (and girls) can we keep it on a level that is at least means it's not umpleasant to read when you aren't involved in the "banter"

I've got a Rover 800 related story to add myself - trouble is I need to find some pictures and hopefully that should allow time to get rid of the bad taste.

Apologies. I always seem to end up banging heads with 300 on threads like this, I think it's the hypocrisy and sheer irony of many of his posts that get me slightly wound up and coming back for more.

The stuff with BalmoralGreen was strange, he was obviously very knowledgable on the subject but seemed to be unwilling to accept that the perception of many people doesn't match his own.

Anyway, looking forward to your story once you get those pictures.

vrtrooper said:

So, what would Alan drive now ?

Black BMW 520D

Apt, but not sure there's much comedy opportunity in it. I'm sticking with the Skoda Superb.

[Balmoral Green]

SWoll said:

I haven't seen anyone agree with your suggestion that Rover didn't attempt to position itself as a more luxury brand than Ford/Vauxhall,

ITech said:

There is no doubt Rover tried to position itself as above Ford and Vauxhaul,

Well, I don't agree with you chaps.

I sold AR product all through the eighties, and as I have said repeatedly, back in the day, it was the big three for most of the UK car buying public, and that was it.

If a customer had an AR price list and was looking at a Maestro 1.6L 5dr in met paint, he didn't need the Ford price list to know how much an Escort or Astra 1.6L 5dr in met cost, it would be almost exactly the same.

Trim, equipment, spec, price, more or less identical. If a customer cast their net further afield, a 309 or R11 would also be almost cartel like in similarity.

If it was a 4dr Rover 216SE saloon the customer was interested in, the same could be said for a 4dr Orion 1.6GL saloon. This 'Rover' positioning thing you're so sure existed didn't really get a look in, I never came across a Hyacinth Bucket type in ten years. The car was going to be the Triumph Acclaim MKII and everyone new it was a Honda Ballade anyway.

Rover 820, the 'O' series engined base version? Same thing with the 2.0GL Granada and Carlton. Move up to the plusher V6 versions and it was pretty much the same. Customers just comparing like for like.

OK, the Rovers had some wood veneer, but this whole 'Rover have placed themselves as a cut above' thing is nonsense.

The big three all competed head on. I was there, selling the things day in, day out. Not least in advertising and general marketing, from one quarters campaign to the next.

I didn't really appreciate being told by someone who wasn't there, wasn't doing it, that my perception if the time, and the business, was wrong. Go and watch the Russ Swift Montego car park advert if you want proof of how directly in competition the three were, it's so insular, it's like no other brand existed.

And as for the old 800 in it's twilight years, right at the end of the nineties, if you think it was pushed out by AR onto the pitch to compete with Germany's finest, then your as deluded as you think AR sales & marketing bods were.

And then it became MG Rover, a bit of sporty pretension for MG, and the same old stick on wood for Rover. But ultimately, bread & butter value brands, as they ever were. I really don't recall the marketing proposition being anything otherwise, eighties, nineties and so on. Not as you're suggesting.

[SWoll]

Balmoral Green said:

SWoll said:

I haven't seen anyone agree with your suggestion that Rover didn't attempt to position itself as a more luxury brand than Ford/Vauxhall,

ITech said:

There is no doubt Rover tried to position itself as above Ford and Vauxhaul,

Well, I don't agree with you chaps.

I sold AR product all through the eighties, and as I have said repeatedly, back in the day, it was the big three for most of the UK car buying public, and that was it.

If a customer had an AR price list and was looking at a Maestro 1.6L 5dr in met paint, he didn't need the Ford price list to know how much an Escort or Astra 1.6L 5dr in met cost, it would be almost exactly the same.

Trim, equipment, spec, price, more or less identical. If a customer cast their net further afield, a 309 or R11 would also be almost cartel like in similarity.

If it was a 4dr Rover 216SE saloon the customer was interested in, the same could be said for a 4dr Orion 1.6GL saloon. This 'Rover' positioning thing you're so sure existed didn't really get a look in, I never came across a Hyacinth Bucket type in ten years. The car was going to be the Triumph Acclaim MKII and everyone new it was a Honda Ballade anyway.

Rover 820, the 'O' series engined base version? Same thing with the 2.0GL Granada and Carlton. Move up to the plusher V6 versions and it was pretty much the same. Customers just comparing like for like.

OK, the Rovers had some wood veneer, but this whole 'Rover have placed themselves as a cut above' thing is nonsense.

The big three all competed head on. I was there, selling the things day in, day out. Not least in advertising and general marketing, from one quarters campaign to the next.

I didn't really appreciate being told by someone who wasn't there, wasn't doing it, that my perception if the time, and the business, was wrong. Go and watch the Russ Swift Montego car park advert if you want proof of how directly in competition the three were, it's so insular, it's like no other brand existed.

And as for the old 800 in it's twilight years, right at the end of the nineties, if you think it was pushed out by AR onto the pitch to compete with Germany's finest, then your as deluded as you think AR sales & marketing bods were.

And then it became MG Rover, a bit of sporty pretension for MG, and the same old stick on wood for Rover. But ultimately, bread & butter value brands, as they ever were. I really don't recall the marketing proposition being anything otherwise, eighties, nineties and so on. Not as you're suggesting.

That is the perception that people clearly had, and have, of the "Rover" (not AR) brand based on responses on this thread. The fact that you were there and had a different perception is irrelevant, unless of course you believe for some reason your opinion as a salesperson was more valid than that of the buying public?

Lets shake hands and agree to disagree on this one, and let the thread get back to it's true purpose.

[66comanche]

Balmoral Green said:

More blather

Crikey you really do rival 300bhp for dismissing others' opinions in the utter belief that what you say is true and nothing else can be considered, you might want to try taking the blinkers off and listening to others.

[KAB888T]

Great shed, almost bought an 820 turbo Coupe on Ebay a couple of years back- unfortunately didnt get it though the wife would have had me sleeping in it...

[williamp]

To back deer old BG up with facts, a fellow PH has scanned rosd tests onto flickr for you all to read. I know you wont read them, but the road testers DO know what car compares to others, and they agree with BG:


The ROVER Montego v citroen, Peugeot, Sierra etc



84 Rover 213SE v the might of luxury Giant Fiat Regatta, Orion etc


88 827 Rover Vitesse v Rolls Royce, Aston Martin, Bentley, Bristol, maybach 67, Lear jet, QE2 (first clsss, natch) and upper class on an Airbus A380:





Sprry everyone, but BG is right. Only after the 80s and the BMW 3 series did brand's really matter. Before then you could look at everyone in the price range

Edited by williamp on Friday 2nd December 20:58

[Balmoral Green]

SWoll said:

Lets shake hands and agree to disagree on this one

Would quite like to.

But then you come out with this..

SWoll said:

The fact that you were there and had a different perception is irrelevant, unless of course you believe for some reason your opinion as a salesperson was more valid than that of the buying public?

I'm not saying my perception or opinion was different to the buying public, I'm saying it was much the same, based on my experience. They were looking at buying one of the big three, and all three were considered as generally on a par. Rover was not considered as a cut above, if anything, you had your work cut out for you in sales as Rover were carrying baggage that Ford & Vauxhall were not. I don't recall people coming in with the perception or opinion that Rovers positioning was above Ford or Vauxhall.

I know this is the internet, but why dismiss all my experiences in a dealership, with the buying public so readily?