'You bend it, you mend it' - Piper sues Hales
Discussion
sim16v said:
Have you read anything about Mr Piper?
I don't know any poor people that own two 917s, numerous historic race Sofas and Ferarri s.
How many poor people do you know that could buy a new 917 from the factory?
what does Pipers wealth have to do with the case at all?I don't know any poor people that own two 917s, numerous historic race Sofas and Ferarri s.
How many poor people do you know that could buy a new 917 from the factory?
Thsi is an issue of fault, it was either Mark Hales fault or it wasnt
Pipers wealth has no bearing on that at all
freedman said:
sim16v said:
Have you read anything about Mr Piper?
I don't know any poor people that own two 917s, numerous historic race Sofas and Ferarri s.
How many poor people do you know that could buy a new 917 from the factory?
what does Pipers wealth have to do with the case at all?I don't know any poor people that own two 917s, numerous historic race Sofas and Ferarri s.
How many poor people do you know that could buy a new 917 from the factory?
Thsi is an issue of fault, it was either Mark Hales fault or it wasnt
Pipers wealth has no bearing on that at all
My personal opinion, from reading what has been written and from trying to understand what makes a sensible man revert to such action is that this isn't about the money anyway. It has already been alluded to that these engines woud need a rebuild sooner or later and to own such vehicles Mr Piper ought to be in a position afford this. I would suggest this was simply about 'principle' and two men's opposing views of a situation.
As my lawyer told me only last week "I earn a lot of money out of principles".
A very sorry affair irresepective of whether we know the whole truth or not, and I still feel Mr Piper was in a better position to have stopped this decline into ridicule.
heebeegeetee said:
AlexKing said:
The deal is between the two individuals, and the risk is accepted by the owner when he hands over the keys, unless a contract is signed or a deposit is taken.
Says who?If contract is silent on risk, and parties won't settle it goes to court.
When is decision due?
Porkupine said:
Well he does also own another original 917 thougt to be worth in excess of 7mil. And it is a well known fact that he is wealthy. What's your point?
He can't spend the 7 mill though, and he certainly didn't buy the car for 7 mill. He may well be wealthy, but what little knowledge I have about him is that I'm not sure he ever had a 'proper job' and I don't think he had a great education either.From my own little peep into the world of historic motorsport and the individuals therein, they're a tough bunch, they didn't earn their money by giving it away and they don't suffer fools gladly. Luckily, no-one is forced to work or deal with them.
Us enthusiasts out here are lucky that we have such individuals around to keep the world's greatest cars operating in the way they should and not kept hidden out of sight. Why anyone would want to delve into and comment on their private lives is beyond me though, other than to give us all a good gossip we're we're out and about on events.
I would suggest that the people disparaging David Piper rally don't know anything at all about him beyond a few lines written on the internet, but in today's unpleasant society that's not going to stop some people holding back.
As enthusiasts lets be grateful for what we have and let's not denigrate people the moment we discover that they may not be a perfect specimen of human being, particularly when we're judging by own own standards based on living an entirely different way of life.
Boshly said:
My personal opinion, from reading what has been written and from trying to understand what makes a sensible man revert to such action is that this isn't about the money anyway. It has already been alluded to that these engines woud need a rebuild sooner or later and to own such vehicles Mr Piper ought to be in a position afford this. I would suggest this was simply about 'principle' and two men's opposing views of a situation.
.
I would guess you are corrcet there .
Why any respectable journalist and, more to the point, any publisher would put themselves in this position is odd.
Dennis publishing will have substantial legal resources. Not beyond the wit of them to draft a suitable contract which clearly outlines each party's liabilities, limits of liability etc, especially when driving rare, high value cars.
Further, Dennis publishing AND Hales should have adequate insurance to cater for these rare, yet expensive, catastrophic events. That is what insurance is for.
Dennis publishing will have substantial legal resources. Not beyond the wit of them to draft a suitable contract which clearly outlines each party's liabilities, limits of liability etc, especially when driving rare, high value cars.
Further, Dennis publishing AND Hales should have adequate insurance to cater for these rare, yet expensive, catastrophic events. That is what insurance is for.
johnfm said:
Why any respectable journalist and, more to the point, any publisher would put themselves in this position is odd.
Dennis publishing will have substantial legal resources. Not beyond the wit of them to draft a suitable contract which clearly outlines each party's liabilities, limits of liability etc, especially when driving rare, high value cars.
Further, Dennis publishing AND Hales should have adequate insurance to cater for these rare, yet expensive, catastrophic events. That is what insurance is for.
My thoughts too. People have asked how these type of tests and events will be able to be conducted in the future, and my thought is 'properly'. Dennis publishing will have substantial legal resources. Not beyond the wit of them to draft a suitable contract which clearly outlines each party's liabilities, limits of liability etc, especially when driving rare, high value cars.
Further, Dennis publishing AND Hales should have adequate insurance to cater for these rare, yet expensive, catastrophic events. That is what insurance is for.
I noticed that Nick Mason wanted out of pocket expenses for the use of his Ferrari. Would that include repairs if needed too?
freedman said:
johnfm said:
Further, Dennis publishing AND Hales should have adequate insurance to cater for these rare, yet expensive, catastrophic events. That is what insurance is for.
A very good pointBoshly said:
freedman said:
sim16v said:
Have you read anything about Mr Piper?
I don't know any poor people that own two 917s, numerous historic race Sofas and Ferarri s.
How many poor people do you know that could buy a new 917 from the factory?
what does Pipers wealth have to do with the case at all?I don't know any poor people that own two 917s, numerous historic race Sofas and Ferarri s.
How many poor people do you know that could buy a new 917 from the factory?
Thsi is an issue of fault, it was either Mark Hales fault or it wasnt
Pipers wealth has no bearing on that at all
My personal opinion, from reading what has been written and from trying to understand what makes a sensible man revert to such action is that this isn't about the money anyway. It has already been alluded to that these engines woud need a rebuild sooner or later and to own such vehicles Mr Piper ought to be in a position afford this. I would suggest this was simply about 'principle' and two men's opposing views of a situation.
As my lawyer told me only last week "I earn a lot of money out of principles".
A very sorry affair irresepective of whether we know the whole truth or not, and I still feel Mr Piper was in a better position to have stopped this decline into ridicule.
A crazy sad situation that appears as if it could have been averted with a little common sense and logic. One can only presume this will create some considerable ill feeling and tension in the historic racing world now for neither gain nor much good reason.
A loser all round
I am very surprised that there isn't a proper, comprehensive, legally binding agreement between owner and driver before these tests take place.
It is quite common to read of a journalist borrowing a hugely expensive car, the risk of accidental damage is always present and often beyond the journalists ability to pay for. I would have expected there to be a comprehensive agreement signed prior to the loan detailing not only who would be responsible for accident or mechanical damage but also how the borrower intended to pay for the repair of any damage shown to be his responsibility.
It's ludicrous that you sign a detailed contract when hiring a clapped out hatchback from Hertz et al, yet million pound borrowed cars are driven on the racetrack with no firm arrangement as to who pays if things go wrong.
It is quite common to read of a journalist borrowing a hugely expensive car, the risk of accidental damage is always present and often beyond the journalists ability to pay for. I would have expected there to be a comprehensive agreement signed prior to the loan detailing not only who would be responsible for accident or mechanical damage but also how the borrower intended to pay for the repair of any damage shown to be his responsibility.
It's ludicrous that you sign a detailed contract when hiring a clapped out hatchback from Hertz et al, yet million pound borrowed cars are driven on the racetrack with no firm arrangement as to who pays if things go wrong.
I wonder how long it will be until a "racing accident" will end up with one party suing the other for damages.
I'm repairing a car at the moment that will cost circa £30k+, the other car also sustained considerable damage yet neither driver has either pointed the finger at the other nor requested a contribution from the other.
It would be interesting to find out what a refresh cost would be against the damage repair cost.
I'm repairing a car at the moment that will cost circa £30k+, the other car also sustained considerable damage yet neither driver has either pointed the finger at the other nor requested a contribution from the other.
It would be interesting to find out what a refresh cost would be against the damage repair cost.
Boshly said:
Legally it has no bearing whatsoever. Morally and ethically, I think many would say it certainly should have.
My personal opinion, from reading what has been written and from trying to understand what makes a sensible man revert to such action is that this isn't about the money anyway. It has already been alluded to that these engines woud need a rebuild sooner or later and to own such vehicles Mr Piper ought to be in a position afford this. I would suggest this was simply about 'principle' and two men's opposing views of a situation.
As my lawyer told me only last week "I earn a lot of money out of principles".
A very sorry affair irresepective of whether we know the whole truth or not, and I still feel Mr Piper was in a better position to have stopped this decline into ridicule.
The real issue is that we just don't know. What we do know is that it is a sad saga. My personal opinion, from reading what has been written and from trying to understand what makes a sensible man revert to such action is that this isn't about the money anyway. It has already been alluded to that these engines woud need a rebuild sooner or later and to own such vehicles Mr Piper ought to be in a position afford this. I would suggest this was simply about 'principle' and two men's opposing views of a situation.
As my lawyer told me only last week "I earn a lot of money out of principles".
A very sorry affair irresepective of whether we know the whole truth or not, and I still feel Mr Piper was in a better position to have stopped this decline into ridicule.
For all we know Piper may have told Hales to stop driving if there was an issue with the car and Hales lied about reporting it to the mechanic.
We don't know what the judgement rested on, whether it was the breach of a verbal contract or whether it was the difference in what Hales claimed v the mechanic.
For a few on here to base a view on who has more money isn't healthy at all.
When Dario Franchitti bent the lightweight E-type badly (about £100K damage IIRC) at the Revival the owner was apparently trying to sue him for the repair costs. It came to nought, and the car was sold on to Sean Lynn still in the damaged state a year or so later, but it did get the invited driver's thinking hard.
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