RE: McLaren P1: powertrain

[Dblue]

PunterCam said:

bobberz said:

Porsche 959, Ferrari F40, Bugatti EB110, Bugatti Veyron, Pagani Huayra. All have turbos. I guess none of them are supercars?

Would you rather have the P1 with a 900bhp hybrid turbo, or with a 900bhp naturally aspirated engine?

We'll have to wait and see how good the throttle response is on the P1 but it's interesting tech working to overcome the lag.

Fact is that I've never quite bought in to this throttle response thing re Turbo vs N/A in the modern era. Modern Turbos have very little lag what with variable pitch impellers and other clever tech and a great big lump of torque early on in the rev range. Compare that to highly tuned (100 bhp per litre + ) N/A alternative that may react quickly but needs revs to build torque and release HP.

I still prefer the N/A way myself but the most exciting motors of that type (Ferrari V8s, Mezger 6s and BMW M Power etc ) can get caught bogged down in too high a gear and need a few seconds to "climb" through their rev range until the fireworks appear.

Edited by Dblue on Wednesday 20th February 20:17

[Dr Z]

Dblue said:

We'll have to wait and see how good the throttle response is on the P1 but it's interesting tech working to overcome the lag.

Fact is that I've never quite bought in to this throttle response thing re Turbo vs N/A in the modern era. Modern Turbos have very little lag what with variable pitch impellers and other clever tech and a great big lump of torque early on in the rev range. Compare that to highly tuned (100 bhp per litre + ) N/A alternative that may react quickly but needs revs to build torque and release HP.

I still prefer the N/A way myself but the most exciting motors of that type (Ferrari V8s, Mexger 6s and BMW M Power etc ) can get caught bogged down in too high a gear and need a few seconds to "climb" through their rev range until the fireworks appear.

Agree, but I think these modern dual-clutch auto boxes have further helped in eliminating the 'lag' experienced in these car be it N/A or FI. As noted, from the stats the 12C and P1 engines don't appear like the classic FI engine with a load of torque. This engine is high-revving too, which is also not typical of the classic FI engine, so in terms of response, I think this could actually be very good, compared to a highly strung N/A V12 that again revs out to 9000 rpm but likely produces much less torque...

[LandingSpot]

Cannot wait to see this in the flesh. Just amazing

[jcl]

This car is about as relevant as a cat on mars doing a crossword.

It's just a wker mobile isn't it? That's who will be buying them I'm sure. Someone with taste and car knowledge would surely have a nice Aston or 911 for plodding about on the road and a Radical SR8 for destroying the footballers who turn up in these at the local trackday.

If McLaren really want to do something impressive lets see a minimal 60K car that rewrites the rulebook and stuffs a GT3RS. Throwing millions at things like this is pure meh.

Edited by jcl on Wednesday 20th February 20:28

[Roule Duke]

Cant believe the level of moaning and wild assumptions as to how it will (under) perform. Personally I love the fact that we have a British car company making such technically advanced cars, they really seem to leading the way in new tech. Makes me feel proud to be British.

I bet the Italians are far more patriotic toward home made cars, unfortunately we seem to be a nation of moaners.

I for one can not wait to see how this thing squares up again the next generation of hypers cars.

[FisiP1]

jcl said:

This car is about as relevant as a cat on mars doing a crossword.

It's just a wker mobile isn't it? That's who will be buying them I'm sure. Someone with taste and car knowledge would surely have a nice Aston or 911 for plodding about on the road and a Radical SR8 for destroying the footballers who turn up in these at the local trackday.

If McLaren really want to do something impressive lets see a minimal 60K car that rewrites the rulebook and stuffs a GT3RS. Throwing millions at things like this is pure meh.

Edited by jcl on Wednesday 20th February 20:28

This will be way, way, way faster than a Radical SR8.

tens of Millions of people in the world who can afford one of these too, it's hardly irrelevant.

[AndyS2]

Porkie said:

AndyS2 said:

Those compressor housings look substantially bigger than stock, I wonder who will be the first to 'chip' one to 1000bhp!

Its a picture of the engine that will be in the car. How can they be larger than stock??!?!

You mean they look larger than on the 12c?

I was refering to the pictures about half way down page one, comparing the stock 12c engine to the P1. Should have quoted it I guess, but it bugs me when peaple clutter up threads by quoting pics.

[bigaoi]

Galileo said:

My thoughts exactly. What the hell do they think it might need to pass? A Eurofighter?

Needs more power, " The aircraft accelerates from 0 to 160 mph in just 3 seconds".

[redroadster]

Wonder what the performance figues are going to be ? .

[jcl]

FisiP1 said:

This will be way, way, way faster than a Radical SR8.

tens of Millions of people in the world who can afford one of these too, it's hardly irrelevant.

You're having a laugh. Take 300kg out of it and it might have a chance. An SR8 will pull nearly 3g in a corner an 2g braking. It wouldn't even be close.

Tens of millions you say? Sounds like I need to get down the Job Centre.

[Dblue]

Roule Duke said:

Cant believe the level of moaning and wild assumptions as to how it will (under) perform. Personally I love the fact that we have a British car company making such technically advanced cars, they really seem to leading the way in new tech. Makes me feel proud to be British.

I bet the Italians are far more patriotic toward home made cars, unfortunately we seem to be a nation of moaners.

I for one can not wait to see how this thing squares up again the next generation of hypers cars.

+1

What is wrong with this country , honestly.

Reminds me of all the grumping and negative bks about the Olympics. Remind me how that went again?

It's a state of the art hypercar built and developed exclusively in the UK by one of the coolest companies on earth. The leading motorsport team in the leading motrosport nation on earth.

I look forward to the fight with the F150 which Ferrari are very bullish about in early publicity. Their twitter hash tag is #destroythecompetition. Bring it on!!

[boxerTen]

Max_Torque said:

For all the people saying "yeah, but it would be 'better' without all the hybrid nonsense" answer me this:

Why should they have just made another F1? It's been done before. Lots of times. Another F1 would have brought nothing to the party.

A few reasons for a new F1 come to mind:

1. People would buy it in droves.
2. It likely wouldn't cost a whole lot more than the 12C.
3. You can't buy anything similar (dry the Huayra is 250kg heavier so not in the same class).
4. A modern n/a 6 litre V12 can produce 700-750 bhp in road tune without the turbo lag.
5. The F1 was light, under 1000kg in racing guise. I'll bet McLaren could make it even lighter today.
6. The F1 was good enough to win Le Mans, will the P1?

[FisiP1]

jcl said:

FisiP1 said:

This will be way, way, way faster than a Radical SR8.

tens of Millions of people in the world who can afford one of these too, it's hardly irrelevant.

You're having a laugh. Take 300kg out of it and it might have a chance. An SR8 will pull nearly 3g in a corner an 2g braking. It wouldn't even be close.

Tens of millions you say? Sounds like I need to get down the Job Centre.

The SR8 is almost exactly as fast as a Zonda R.

McLaren promised prospective owners the P1 will be far quicker than the Zonda R.

[boxerTen]

RenOHH said:

boxerTen said:

So 96kg of batteries, plus the other tricky electric bits buys an intermittent 179bhp. 96 kg of extra engine would have easily bought 4 more cylinders, making a full dozen, together with their extra 360bhp.

You can't just add 33% more cylinders for 33% more power. If they did what you say they would still have a turbo lag problem. The hybrid system is required to smooth the power/torque delivery - it's a good thing!

The other advantage of having less cylinders and the ability to add more power when required, is that when you do not need this 179bhp, you simply don't use it. It gives a similar benefit to cylinder deactivation.

Another thing that comes to mind, there are other benefits to a more efficient engine. You can choose to have either a smaller fuel tank for the same range giving you a better package, or maximise the fuel tank within the space available for massive range between fuel stops.

If one is worried about turbo lag in a forced induction engine then one uses a supercharger, not a bunch of electric motors/generators and a full fuel tank's worth of weight in batteries. As to what do do with excess power when you don't need it - generally I find the throttle works quite well!

The P1 is an engineering showcase for McLaren, which is fine. What it is not, is a car aimed squarely at performance in the manner of the F1.

[CraigyMc]

boxerTen said:

Max_Torque said:

For all the people saying "yeah, but it would be 'better' without all the hybrid nonsense" answer me this:

Why should they have just made another F1? It's been done before. Lots of times. Another F1 would have brought nothing to the party.

A few reasons for a new F1 come to mind:

1. People would buy it in droves.
2. It likely wouldn't cost a whole lot more than the 12C.
3. You can't buy anything similar (dry the Huayra is 250kg heavier so not in the same class).
4. A modern n/a 6 litre V12 can produce 700-750 bhp in road tune without the turbo lag.
5. The F1 was light, under 1000kg in racing guise. I'll bet McLaren could make it even lighter today.
6. The F1 was good enough to win Le Mans, will the P1?

1. Undoubtedly
2. Nonsense
3. Obviously. On the other hand, the car would have to compy with todays regulations and that's not light or easy.
4. Name one?
5. No doubt, but not road-legally.
6. It's not diesel, the active aero is banned, the electric system is banned. They coundn't enter it without radically changing it (even the 12c racer is radically different than the road car)

C

[TAS1981]

Brilliant car! Something to drool over for all but the hypercar glitterati who can afford it! Wonder if Mr Bean approves?

Adding a road legal NOS alternative in the form of an electric motor, awesome!

[Dblue]

boxerTen said:

Max_Torque said:

For all the people saying "yeah, but it would be 'better' without all the hybrid nonsense" answer me this:

Why should they have just made another F1? It's been done before. Lots of times. Another F1 would have brought nothing to the party.

A few reasons for a new F1 come to mind:

1. People would buy it in droves.
2. It likely wouldn't cost a whole lot more than the 12C.
3. You can't buy anything similar (dry the Huayra is 250kg heavier so not in the same class).
4. A modern n/a 6 litre V12 can produce 700-750 bhp in road tune without the turbo lag.
5. The F1 was light, under 1000kg in racing guise. I'll bet McLaren could make it even lighter today.
6. The F1 was good enough to win Le Mans, will the P1?

Would they? Not so sure, sounds not unlike the Lotus blueprint. The car would be at least 12C money and thats a small market.

A modern version of the V12 wouldn't comply with future environmental legislation and as I said above, modern turbocharged engines have almost no lag and lots more low down torque. My issue is they just can't sound as good.

The F1 used hugely expensive no compromise materials and still weighed 1100kg with nothing like the passenger safety it would need now, The racing versions cannot be compared.

The P1 is using absolute state of the art active aero that MacLaren are promising amazing things from, whispers of track times that are staggering even in comparison to the 12C. It may never race but I'm pretty sure MacLaren could make it darn competitive if they wanted too, they know quite a lot about that sort of thing.

[bnracing]

FisiP1 said:

This will be way, way, way faster than a Radical SR8.

tens of Millions of people in the world who can afford one of these too, it's hardly irrelevant.

I am sorry the P1 will not be as quick as the Radical SR8 in fact the SR8 would make this look silly on a track. You need to remember how much quicker the SR8 is compared to the current Mclaren GT3 race car. You are comparing road car to track/race car. You need to do some homework lol. The SR8 is not far of the speed of an F3 car. Now compare F3 lap times to the quickest GT race cars, you will be looking at 4-5 second a lap quicker for an SR8 on a typical circuit.

[jcl]

FisiP1 said:

The SR8 is almost exactly as fast as a Zonda R.

McLaren promised prospective owners the P1 will be far quicker than the Zonda R.

Well as a McLaren fan I'd be happy to be proved wrong. We'll see I guess.

[FisiP1]

bnracing said:

FisiP1 said:

This will be way, way, way faster than a Radical SR8.

tens of Millions of people in the world who can afford one of these too, it's hardly irrelevant.

I am sorry the P1 will not be as quick as the Radical SR8 in fact the SR8 would make this look silly on a track. You need to remember how much quicker the SR8 is compared to the current Mclaren GT3 race car. You are comparing road car to track/race car. You need to do some homework lol. The SR8 is not far of the speed of an F3 car. Now compare F3 lap times to the quickest GT race cars, you will be looking at 4-5 second a lap quicker for an SR8 on a typical circuit.

As quoted by the post above, prospective owners have been promised that the P1 will be 'far faster' than the Pagani Zonda R.

The Zonda R coincidentally laps the nurburgring in almost exactly the same time as the fastest vairant of the SR8, and faster than the standard version of it.

People need to re-calibrate their idea of what makes for a fast track car with the latest gen of hypercar. The advantages offered by the instantaneous and vast torque of electric motors and huge active aero panels is, at first, unbelievable.