RE: Price hike: PH Blog
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I did a PH Carpool on my old 348 (which I still Have) in 2011 - they were 20k then and as I said at the time a bit of a bargain I thought, but they still are today at nearer 40k when compared to a 355 at 60k or more. They need to be driven though, they don't make good garage queens.Harris_I said:
"consider that in terms of pure provenance as both a drivers' car and for competition pedigree, the only thing that comes close to the E30 M3 is a Porsche 911 2.7 RS. "
Integrale. It's only been mentioned once I think in about 200 posts.
Can someone please explain why a 6-times WRC winning pukka homologation special with perhaps the finest analogue interface of any four wheel drive car and in danger of extinction through natural attrition has been sitting at roughly the same value for the past five years whilst its circuit racing contemporary, the E30 M3, has gone stratospheric? I'm genuinely confused.
I can only assume Lancia just weren't as popular and the same stands today? No doubting the provenance or rarity, especially in latter Evo form, but maybe it's simply Lancia's reputation for fragility and parts cost? It seems the UR Quattro are another example where prices have lagged behind. (no pun intended)Integrale. It's only been mentioned once I think in about 200 posts.
Can someone please explain why a 6-times WRC winning pukka homologation special with perhaps the finest analogue interface of any four wheel drive car and in danger of extinction through natural attrition has been sitting at roughly the same value for the past five years whilst its circuit racing contemporary, the E30 M3, has gone stratospheric? I'm genuinely confused.
I'm obviously biased, as I have an E30, but I absolutely love the thing and wouldn't want to be without it. I didn't get it as an investment though and will use it as intended. As others have said, cars are meant to be driven and I much prefer to see a Ferrari being given some stick on the street, than sat in a heated garage.
If it continues like this, are we going to see a sudden drop in the number of collectable cars that are actually used? I could justify running around in an E30 if it was £15k-20k, but you're going to start thinking twice if it gets to £80k
How do you insure these things? Hope "market value" will cover you at the time of an incident?
How do you insure these things? Hope "market value" will cover you at the time of an incident?
[quote=nigelonich]I owned a perfect E30 M3 Evo Sport in red about ten years ago for six months or so. It had done 60k miles and was in extremely good condition in every way. The continual positive press feedback on this car was completely missed by me as I found it way beneath my expectations in terms of speed, handling and overall driving pleasure. I compare this with cars like an escort cosworth and others on my pre owned list.
I decided to take advantage of the growing interest and I sold it for a couple of thousand more than I paid for it but it was still less than £20k from memory. The guy that bought it (very pleasant chap) had a Johnny Cecotto m3 and although i didn't discuss it with him in detail he had the advantage of seeing the Sport as an upgrade as where I started with the Sport. He sold it on shortly afterwards and hopefully for a profit.
However, the Harris comments on the Stradale questioning the price tag I agree with but it must be made clear that a stradale for £200k makes far more sense to me than a Evo Sport at £80k. This is coming from someone who has one and has owned both.
AFAIK the cheapest new Ferrari you can get is at maximum road tax and will be reaching at £180k+. Unless you are uber wealthy a used Strad, Scud, 16m or something a bit more classic like a decent 355 will easily satisfy a Ferrari itch and its the demand for that cheaper itch that is keeping the market for the 8 - 15 year old cars up surely?
[/quote
I am glad I am not the only one who was a bit " underwhelmed" by an E30 M3, albeit a "normal " one if there is such a thing! For about 8 years I have been too terrified to admit it to anyone.....
I decided to take advantage of the growing interest and I sold it for a couple of thousand more than I paid for it but it was still less than £20k from memory. The guy that bought it (very pleasant chap) had a Johnny Cecotto m3 and although i didn't discuss it with him in detail he had the advantage of seeing the Sport as an upgrade as where I started with the Sport. He sold it on shortly afterwards and hopefully for a profit.
However, the Harris comments on the Stradale questioning the price tag I agree with but it must be made clear that a stradale for £200k makes far more sense to me than a Evo Sport at £80k. This is coming from someone who has one and has owned both.
AFAIK the cheapest new Ferrari you can get is at maximum road tax and will be reaching at £180k+. Unless you are uber wealthy a used Strad, Scud, 16m or something a bit more classic like a decent 355 will easily satisfy a Ferrari itch and its the demand for that cheaper itch that is keeping the market for the 8 - 15 year old cars up surely?
[/quote
I am glad I am not the only one who was a bit " underwhelmed" by an E30 M3, albeit a "normal " one if there is such a thing! For about 8 years I have been too terrified to admit it to anyone.....
e21Mark said:
I can only assume Lancia just weren't as popular and the same stands today? No doubting the provenance or rarity, especially in latter Evo form, but maybe it's simply Lancia's reputation for fragility and parts cost? It seems the UR Quattro are another example where prices have lagged behind. (no pun intended)
I'm obviously biased, as I have an E30, but I absolutely love the thing and wouldn't want to be without it. I didn't get it as an investment though and will use it as intended. As others have said, cars are meant to be driven and I much prefer to see a Ferrari being given some stick on the street, than sat in a heated garage.
I think availability of parts has some influence. Porsche and BMW have always been pretty good at supporting their old cars well beyond the 10 year timeframe from 'last vehicle built' at which a lot of other manufacturers chop most of the spare parts off. So have RR / Bentley and Aston.I'm obviously biased, as I have an E30, but I absolutely love the thing and wouldn't want to be without it. I didn't get it as an investment though and will use it as intended. As others have said, cars are meant to be driven and I much prefer to see a Ferrari being given some stick on the street, than sat in a heated garage.
Amongst established classics the great advantages of cars like the E-Type, TR family, MGB and Morris Minor is that you can get just about any part for them from the after-market (even if you have to be careful as quality varies). New components for 30 year old Lancias are not something you can just click for on the internet.
Edited by Lowtimer on Friday 6th June 12:35
Interesting regarding the Integrale although the rare EVO II models are hitting the 40k mark now and prices are continuing to rise.
I think one to watch as a future investment is the Megane R26R, arguably the most hardcore hot hatch ever built, extremely rare (less than 90 in the UK) and its something which we will never see again. Give it 10 years and these will be littered in the performance/clasic magazines still receiving rave reviews and prices touching £30k.
I think one to watch as a future investment is the Megane R26R, arguably the most hardcore hot hatch ever built, extremely rare (less than 90 in the UK) and its something which we will never see again. Give it 10 years and these will be littered in the performance/clasic magazines still receiving rave reviews and prices touching £30k.
Leins said:
What does a good 190E EvoII cost these days? They were the first of the homologation saloon cars that hit £50k from what I remember, maybe 5 or 6 years ago now, but the attention seems to have shifted to the E30 SE more in the last couple
Here you go 
http://suchen.mobile.de/auto/mercedes-benz-190-evo...
AV12 said:
Are 348s unaffected by all this 
There appears to be examples for 40k. It's a beautiful car in my eyes. Dare I say it, prettier than a 355?
Lol, no they're heavily affected by this - when I was looking in August last year there were plenty around £25k.There appears to be examples for 40k. It's a beautiful car in my eyes. Dare I say it, prettier than a 355?
I imagine the rise in more modern cars also has something to do with the meteoric rise in new car prices - there are £250k 'normal' Ferraris now iirc? So the differential between new and second hand will only stretch so far.
melvster said:
Interesting regarding the Integrale although the rare EVO II models are hitting the 40k mark now and prices are continuing to rise.
I think one to watch as a future investment is the Megane R26R, arguably the most hardcore hot hatch ever built, extremely rare (less than 90 in the UK) and its something which we will never see again. Give it 10 years and these will be littered in the performance/clasic magazines still receiving rave reviews and prices touching £30k.
+1I think one to watch as a future investment is the Megane R26R, arguably the most hardcore hot hatch ever built, extremely rare (less than 90 in the UK) and its something which we will never see again. Give it 10 years and these will be littered in the performance/clasic magazines still receiving rave reviews and prices touching £30k.
spyker138 said:
SprintSpeciale said:
The market is frothy, for sure. This can be explained in part because cars, like other so called "collectibles", have benefited from the atypical investment environment in recent years. The combination of very low interest rates and a prolonged recession have meant that investors seeking yield have ventured outside of the traditioanl investment markets (stocks, bonds) and dabbled in other assets. This has particularly been the case for wealthy private individuals who, faced with the choice between a low return on equities or bonds or the fun of owning something like a classic Ferrari, have decided to get some fun along with their potential economic upside.
The concern for others thinking of making the plunge is twofold. First, as the financial markets return to a more "normal" paradigm, the interest in collectibles will wane. That will lead to a migration of cash from the car market into other investments. Second, as with any bubble, as prices of the genuinely collectible assets rise, and climb beyond the reach of mere mortals, there is a ripple effect that drags up the prices of more ordinary stuff (in the way Chris describes). When the prices start to fall, it is likely to be those who "invested" in the second tier who feel a lot of pain having overpaid for "ordinary" metal.
For what it's worth, my view on buying cars for long term value is that you should look for (at a minimum) these three things:
1. a premium badge - there are plenty of views on what this actually means, but a racing peigree/history is a good starting point
2. the car was expensive, or expensive relative to its direct competition, when it was new
3. there are not many about.
On that basis, I purchased a 1964 Alfa Sprint Speciale and a 1961 Maserati 3500GT. Will I make money on them? Hopefully - but ultimately they were bought because I think they are things of beauty, I intend to carry on driving them, and they give me a lot of pleasure. And, given what I paid for them, it would be a big shock if over any period of time they cost me more than running my modern cars!
Absolutely correct. I sold stock and bought a DB4 last year. My objective is to enjoy it and that it holds its value over five years. Based on the first year I think I can be as sure of that as I can be about the stock market or cash. And I cannot drive a house. The concern for others thinking of making the plunge is twofold. First, as the financial markets return to a more "normal" paradigm, the interest in collectibles will wane. That will lead to a migration of cash from the car market into other investments. Second, as with any bubble, as prices of the genuinely collectible assets rise, and climb beyond the reach of mere mortals, there is a ripple effect that drags up the prices of more ordinary stuff (in the way Chris describes). When the prices start to fall, it is likely to be those who "invested" in the second tier who feel a lot of pain having overpaid for "ordinary" metal.
For what it's worth, my view on buying cars for long term value is that you should look for (at a minimum) these three things:
1. a premium badge - there are plenty of views on what this actually means, but a racing peigree/history is a good starting point
2. the car was expensive, or expensive relative to its direct competition, when it was new
3. there are not many about.
On that basis, I purchased a 1964 Alfa Sprint Speciale and a 1961 Maserati 3500GT. Will I make money on them? Hopefully - but ultimately they were bought because I think they are things of beauty, I intend to carry on driving them, and they give me a lot of pleasure. And, given what I paid for them, it would be a big shock if over any period of time they cost me more than running my modern cars!
Next up is F550M, last of the V12 manuals, and I've got used to the looks now. Or a Vanquish S.. yes 997 GT3RS absolutely a good one, just not my CoT. My Spyker C8 is a risky one - will either tank or go crazy at some point. So just enjoy it.
Ferrari is an A+ list brand, with mostly A+ models. I'd avoid a Mondial and 348 because they are perceived to fall well below standard within their respective group. Similarly Porsche 911 pre 1975 S and all RS and GT3 models are A+ listers, with their lesser models falling in the B+ category.
Alfas, unless they are pre-war, would fall within the B+-A group, and post war Maserati to B-A+,(and IMO they have a very similar post war history) so expect to see the prices of some of their models up to 2002 move up steadily but not as much or quickly as the A or A+ Listers. BMW is another B+ group so I suspect £85k for an E30 M3 (whatever the sub group may be) is perhaps a little too much to ask at the moment, and in the event the bubble bursts, these B-B+ cars would suffer the most.
The Spyker is as you say very risky for a number of reasons -it doesn't have the history or heritage and is not fully engineered by one company i.e. uses a standard engine from another manufacturer.
Edited by chelme on Friday 6th June 14:10
melvster said:
Cheers. So they actually don't seem to have risen too much in the last few years then, whereas the E30 SE has doubled in the same time periodmelvster said:
Interesting regarding the Integrale although the rare EVO II models are hitting the 40k mark now and prices are continuing to rise.
I think that is only the ultra-low mileage cars sat in someone's garage for 20 years on their original tyres. From personal experience I know these unused cars will be trouble.melvster said:
rb26 said:
I'm in a similar boat, but only I'm hankering for the even rarer S-zero (only 41 made if I'm not mistaken.)! I know there are a lot of cars that you could buy for the money that both these cars attract but for me there is some allure that the NSX has on me. As long as they stay sub-100k (before shipping) by the time I'm in the market for one I'll be happy 
Same for me...... But the NSX has something which sparks my interest more than a Ferrari or Lamborghini. An S Zero finished in Imola Orange with the matching black and orange seats. Heaven 
Derek Chevalier said:
Why would you prefer an S-Zero over the standard car on UK roads?
Why not ? It's rarer...... a lot rarer and not all roads in the UK are ruined or rutted. I would only use it for trips to North Wales etc... so it would be perfect. As an overall package i think it is more special than a UK car, not that i would say no to a UK car of course... GTEYE said:
I almost weep thinking back about the missed opportunity I had to buy a low miles Sport Evo for £18k back in the late 90s...
Think yourself lucky you didn't panic and sell a 58K miler for £14K 10 years later to provide for the future of your un-born Son who you've subsequently spent double that amount fighting just to be able to see ever since....Nick.
To be honest speaking as a PHer and a long time classic car enthusiast, and an owner of a few modern ones too, the older ones aren't worth the money now being asked for them in my opinion - not as pure driving machines anyway.
I know I risk being shot down in flames here but for instance an E Type isn't worth 100,000 (and I did own a good Series 1 FHC) the brakes are poor, the aerodynamics are nowhere near as good as the shape suggests, they are noisy and not really very comfortable over long distances; fuel consumption, emissions etc are woeful, let alone reliability - and these issues will be common across a whole spectrum of classics purely due to the older technology they employ; several of which I have owned and indeed would own again for the simple fun of driving them, but not at current prices I'm afraid - fun does have it's limits.
Now as investments, that a different matter of course but I can't help but think that the people who are paying these current prices, and those aspiring to buy them, could well be disappointed in the driving dynamics - I just hope they don't lose their shirts on the investments they have made as well.
I'm now adopting the position at the end of the workbench to take my punishment...
I know I risk being shot down in flames here but for instance an E Type isn't worth 100,000 (and I did own a good Series 1 FHC) the brakes are poor, the aerodynamics are nowhere near as good as the shape suggests, they are noisy and not really very comfortable over long distances; fuel consumption, emissions etc are woeful, let alone reliability - and these issues will be common across a whole spectrum of classics purely due to the older technology they employ; several of which I have owned and indeed would own again for the simple fun of driving them, but not at current prices I'm afraid - fun does have it's limits.
Now as investments, that a different matter of course but I can't help but think that the people who are paying these current prices, and those aspiring to buy them, could well be disappointed in the driving dynamics - I just hope they don't lose their shirts on the investments they have made as well.
I'm now adopting the position at the end of the workbench to take my punishment...
mikebrownhill said:
To be honest speaking as a PHer and a long time classic car enthusiast, and an owner of a few modern ones too, the older ones aren't worth the money now being asked for them in my opinion - not as pure driving machines anyway.
I know I risk being shot down in flames here but for instance an E Type isn't worth 100,000 (and I did own a good Series 1 FHC) the brakes are poor, the aerodynamics are nowhere near as good as the shape suggests, they are noisy and not really very comfortable over long distances; fuel consumption, emissions etc are woeful, let alone reliability - and these issues will be common across a whole spectrum of classics purely due to the older technology they employ; several of which I have owned and indeed would own again for the simple fun of driving them, but not at current prices I'm afraid - fun does have it's limits.
Now as investments, that a different matter of course but I can't help but think that the people who are paying these current prices, and those aspiring to buy them, could well be disappointed in the driving dynamics - I just hope they don't lose their shirts on the investments they have made as well.
Excellent postI know I risk being shot down in flames here but for instance an E Type isn't worth 100,000 (and I did own a good Series 1 FHC) the brakes are poor, the aerodynamics are nowhere near as good as the shape suggests, they are noisy and not really very comfortable over long distances; fuel consumption, emissions etc are woeful, let alone reliability - and these issues will be common across a whole spectrum of classics purely due to the older technology they employ; several of which I have owned and indeed would own again for the simple fun of driving them, but not at current prices I'm afraid - fun does have it's limits.
Now as investments, that a different matter of course but I can't help but think that the people who are paying these current prices, and those aspiring to buy them, could well be disappointed in the driving dynamics - I just hope they don't lose their shirts on the investments they have made as well.
melvster said:
Interesting regarding the Integrale although the rare EVO II models are hitting the 40k mark now and prices are continuing to rise.
I think one to watch as a future investment is the Megane R26R, arguably the most hardcore hot hatch ever built, extremely rare (less than 90 in the UK) and its something which we will never see again. Give it 10 years and these will be littered in the performance/clasic magazines still receiving rave reviews and prices touching £30k.
Sorry, but no. Not alluring enough i'm afraid; just look at hot hatches through the ages and legendary cars don't make big money.I think one to watch as a future investment is the Megane R26R, arguably the most hardcore hot hatch ever built, extremely rare (less than 90 in the UK) and its something which we will never see again. Give it 10 years and these will be littered in the performance/clasic magazines still receiving rave reviews and prices touching £30k.
Sticking with Renault though, have you seen the prices for Clio V6? Mad, bonkers car with a real story behind it, exotic layout and SILLY money. Buy one in one of those rare colours and i doubt you could lose.
The M3 CSL will continue to go up, but not really so much of a bargain at the moment. I do think the Ferrari 355 is remarkable value though.
Being an NSX fan, i laugh at the thought of the 348 ever being worth big money; it wasn't a good car in period, and ain't now either. The 355 righted all those wrongs and got Ferrari back on track, with that incredible soundtrack to go with it.
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