Supermarket fuel inferior quality says Telegraph. Really?
Discussion
mybrainhurts said:
Diesel specialist told me my injectors had lasted 100,000 miles more than they should because I ran the car on BP.
A quiet word recently from a bloke who changes pump filters at petrol stations suggested that a certain supermarket's filters have been clogged with crap of late and he advised not to buy their fuel.
With respect this is rubbish. 90 - 95% of the volume is base fuel with additives on top. Every single supplier gets the same base fuel, there's no secret tanks with gold standard fuel in that only BP or Shell get.A quiet word recently from a bloke who changes pump filters at petrol stations suggested that a certain supermarket's filters have been clogged with crap of late and he advised not to buy their fuel.
The additives are added at the loading nozzle right before the fuel enters the tanker compartment. The loading system knows what BOL the driver requires when he swipes his loading card.
MissChief said:
Well I used to put in the occassional tank of Shell VPN+ into my 306 GTI-6 and I can't say I saw much of a difference so the 'good stuff' was a rarity.
However, now I have it's replacement, a Seat Leon Cupra 1.8T (180) I have noticed a significant and worthwhile improvement in MPG and running over the normal stuff. I only ever buy Shell so can't comment on Tesco/BP/Esso premium fuels though. I regularly get 30-40 miles further on a tank of VPN+ compared to 95 RON Shell Fuelsave. The car also seems to run better, revs more freely and 'feels' faster. To me that makes it worth it.
This confirms for me what I've always thought, that super is only of benefit in turbo engines where the engine management is more complex in terms of spark advance and det detection.However, now I have it's replacement, a Seat Leon Cupra 1.8T (180) I have noticed a significant and worthwhile improvement in MPG and running over the normal stuff. I only ever buy Shell so can't comment on Tesco/BP/Esso premium fuels though. I regularly get 30-40 miles further on a tank of VPN+ compared to 95 RON Shell Fuelsave. The car also seems to run better, revs more freely and 'feels' faster. To me that makes it worth it.
If your cylinder contains double the fuel/air density of an NA engine the ECU has to be more attuned to ensuring the bang happens at the right time to maximise the power safely.
MissChief said:
mybrainhurts said:
Diesel specialist told me my injectors had lasted 100,000 miles more than they should because I ran the car on BP.
A quiet word recently from a bloke who changes pump filters at petrol stations suggested that a certain supermarket's filters have been clogged with crap of late and he advised not to buy their fuel.
Surely that just means the filters are doing their job?A quiet word recently from a bloke who changes pump filters at petrol stations suggested that a certain supermarket's filters have been clogged with crap of late and he advised not to buy their fuel.
ryandoc said:
mybrainhurts said:
Diesel specialist told me my injectors had lasted 100,000 miles more than they should because I ran the car on BP.
A quiet word recently from a bloke who changes pump filters at petrol stations suggested that a certain supermarket's filters have been clogged with crap of late and he advised not to buy their fuel.
With respect this is rubbish. 90 - 95% of the volume is base fuel with additives on top. Every single supplier gets the same base fuel, there's no secret tanks with gold standard fuel in that only BP or Shell get.A quiet word recently from a bloke who changes pump filters at petrol stations suggested that a certain supermarket's filters have been clogged with crap of late and he advised not to buy their fuel.
The additives are added at the loading nozzle right before the fuel enters the tanker compartment. The loading system knows what BOL the driver requires when he swipes his loading card.
d's left eye, come the morrow.I bought a 2002 186,000 miles A4 TDI in September and until then had never even really thought of differences between supermarket/premium fuels. Somehow though, reading through what can happen to diesel engines, I figured putting Vpower diesel could only help it. 3 months on I don't know if it will, but for the few pennies more it costs I don't see why I shouldn't try it- the cleaning properties of the fuel can only help the old girl live a longer life!
As mentioned earlier, if all fuel was the same, you'd be able to remap stuff on anything you want without risk of detonation, it's not for no reason mappers see better results from better fuels. It's hardly a recent discovery. A modern, or even not so modern ecu will advance the ignition to take advantage of better fuel, even on a standard car, you can feel it in throttle response, and in eagerness to kickdown in an auto, almost more so in a none-performance orientated vehicle where it seems to make more difference. Our dog chariot Lexus IS300 gets the good stuff for a long trip, it's noticeably more lively when it's getting Momentum or Nitro through it.
When I worked for Toyota, I had several Corolla GTIs in a row, they were very sensitive to decent fuel, and that was in the mid-nineties. On supermarket fuel, it would feel like it was hanging back when throttling on, a direct result of it pulling timing due to low quality fuel.
When I worked for Toyota, I had several Corolla GTIs in a row, they were very sensitive to decent fuel, and that was in the mid-nineties. On supermarket fuel, it would feel like it was hanging back when throttling on, a direct result of it pulling timing due to low quality fuel.
Heaveho said:
As mentioned earlier, if all fuel was the same, you'd be able to remap stuff on anything you want without risk of detonation, it's not for no reason mappers see better results from better fuels. It's hardly a recent discovery. A modern, or even not so modern ecu will advance the ignition to take advantage of better fuel, even on a standard car, you can feel it in throttle response, and in eagerness to kickdown in an auto, almost more so in a none-performance orientated vehicle where it seems to make more difference. Our dog chariot Lexus IS300 gets the good stuff for a long trip, it's noticeably more lively when it's getting Momentum or Nitro through it.
When I worked for Toyota, I had several Corolla GTIs in a row, they were very sensitive to decent fuel, and that was in the mid-nineties. On supermarket fuel, it would feel like it was hanging back when throttling on, a direct result of it pulling timing due to low quality fuel.
if your talking super unleaded, then yes, quite a lot to choose from, all use different octane boosters, additives, etc, resulting in different Ron/Mon ratings.When I worked for Toyota, I had several Corolla GTIs in a row, they were very sensitive to decent fuel, and that was in the mid-nineties. On supermarket fuel, it would feel like it was hanging back when throttling on, a direct result of it pulling timing due to low quality fuel.
this is why when you map a car (specifically highly tuned NA or forced induction stuff), it's usual to map it on a specific fuel and then have to run it on that thereon as the calibration will be to the specifics of the fuel used.
Back to the land of OEM run of the mill stuff all running on 95, whole different story, 95 is made to BS EN 228, yet they will all exceed this spec (they have to play safe) but nobody is going to do so by much, and as has been shown, they are pretty much all the same - it's a volume commodity sold on price.
Super however, is a marketed product with much lower volumes but much higher margins, almost everybody will take the BS EN 7800 and exceed it by some margin (the spec was changed a few years back from 98 to 97, at which point Shell/Tesco/etc decided to push the other way).
Whilst we are talking ECU's, OEM's usually have an optimum ignition map that's then interpreted by the feedback from the knock sensor(s), temps, etc to a running value, most of the time, what it's actually running will be pretty close (if not on) this, ie, the knock (and other) data will only ever pull back timing, not push it forwards, so if you have a car that exhibits better performance on higher octane fuel, you have to ask what fuel it was calibrated for (Like Jap JDM import stuff etc), but 99% of OEM stuff is just not like that.
Heaveho said:
As mentioned earlier, if all fuel was the same, you'd be able to remap stuff on anything you want without risk of detonation, it's not for no reason mappers see better results from better fuels. It's hardly a recent discovery. A modern, or even not so modern ecu will advance the ignition to take advantage of better fuel, even on a standard car, you can feel it in throttle response, and in eagerness to kickdown in an auto, almost more so in a none-performance orientated vehicle where it seems to make more difference. Our dog chariot Lexus IS300 gets the good stuff for a long trip, it's noticeably more lively when it's getting Momentum or Nitro through it.
When I worked for Toyota, I had several Corolla GTIs in a row, they were very sensitive to decent fuel, and that was in the mid-nineties. On supermarket fuel, it would feel like it was hanging back when throttling on, a direct result of it pulling timing due to low quality fuel.
oddly enough the re-mapping types or factory extra performance variants that specify fuel usually specify the higher octane fuels and caution that the use of 95 will mean reduced performance ... When I worked for Toyota, I had several Corolla GTIs in a row, they were very sensitive to decent fuel, and that was in the mid-nineties. On supermarket fuel, it would feel like it was hanging back when throttling on, a direct result of it pulling timing due to low quality fuel.
or can anyone provide proof of a manufacturer actually stating that a specific brand of 95 octane fuel should be used ( rather than cautioning aginst the use of fuels with higher than average ethanol content of whatever)
sat1983 said:
jmorgan said:
Is fuel that good to clear away 100,000 plus miles of crud?
No as I say I sort of said- probably not but it certainly won't do any harm.Not having a go at you BTW. Your question got me thinking that someone must have the answer.
I don't know if this has been posted earlier in the topic but it started me using Tesco Momentum.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=302...
I only use 93 Octane fuel because my car is tuned for them. I can't really feel any difference between Vpower and Momentum but Momentum is a lot cheaper.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=302...
I only use 93 Octane fuel because my car is tuned for them. I can't really feel any difference between Vpower and Momentum but Momentum is a lot cheaper.
jmorgan said:
Not having a go at you BTW. Your question got me thinking that someone must have the answer.
Yeah I wish I knew. I'm not keen on literally dumping the miller/redex stuff in the tank and would just rather stick Vpower in with the cleaning agents. I would really like to know if it helps or not!Scuffers said:
if your talking super unleaded, then yes, quite a lot to choose from, all use different octane boosters, additives, etc, resulting in different Ron/Mon ratings.
this is why when you map a car (specifically highly tuned NA or forced induction stuff), it's usual to map it on a specific fuel and then have to run it on that thereon as the calibration will be to the specifics of the fuel used.
Back to the land of OEM run of the mill stuff all running on 95, whole different story, 95 is made to BS EN 228, yet they will all exceed this spec (they have to play safe) but nobody is going to do so by much, and as has been shown, they are pretty much all the same - it's a volume commodity sold on price.
Super however, is a marketed product with much lower volumes but much higher margins, almost everybody will take the BS EN 7800 and exceed it by some margin (the spec was changed a few years back from 98 to 97, at which point Shell/Tesco/etc decided to push the other way).
Whilst we are talking ECU's, OEM's usually have an optimum ignition map that's then interpreted by the feedback from the knock sensor(s), temps, etc to a running value, most of the time, what it's actually running will be pretty close (if not on) this, ie, the knock (and other) data will only ever pull back timing, not push it forwards, so if you have a car that exhibits better performance on higher octane fuel, you have to ask what fuel it was calibrated for (Like Jap JDM import stuff etc), but 99% of OEM stuff is just not like that.
All fair comment, don't disagree with any of this. Edited to add, yeah, I meant oem stuff can only "advance" timing back to a maximum factory preset if it's previously pulled it back to compensate for lower quality or lower octane fuel, not suggesting it has the capability to just keep on advancing continually.this is why when you map a car (specifically highly tuned NA or forced induction stuff), it's usual to map it on a specific fuel and then have to run it on that thereon as the calibration will be to the specifics of the fuel used.
Back to the land of OEM run of the mill stuff all running on 95, whole different story, 95 is made to BS EN 228, yet they will all exceed this spec (they have to play safe) but nobody is going to do so by much, and as has been shown, they are pretty much all the same - it's a volume commodity sold on price.
Super however, is a marketed product with much lower volumes but much higher margins, almost everybody will take the BS EN 7800 and exceed it by some margin (the spec was changed a few years back from 98 to 97, at which point Shell/Tesco/etc decided to push the other way).
Whilst we are talking ECU's, OEM's usually have an optimum ignition map that's then interpreted by the feedback from the knock sensor(s), temps, etc to a running value, most of the time, what it's actually running will be pretty close (if not on) this, ie, the knock (and other) data will only ever pull back timing, not push it forwards, so if you have a car that exhibits better performance on higher octane fuel, you have to ask what fuel it was calibrated for (Like Jap JDM import stuff etc), but 99% of OEM stuff is just not like that.
Edited by Heaveho on Friday 26th December 11:00
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff