RE: The £70K M3 CSL: Spotted
Discussion
I've had some cracking cars but nothing has managed to get under my skin so much. I don't think I will ever sell my csl it's so much fun to drive. The noise is to die for and they are a great looking car. Price increase nice but irrelevant to me as as I won't be selling..even if I did I would need £100k to buy a gt3 which at twice the price isn't twice the car!!
I owned a mint CSL E46 and it is one of the world's most over-rated cars. Like people have said, the 1385 kgs dry weight is only with no options. Most have ICE and air-con so 1425 kgs is much more realistic. Mine had those options and was not a particularly quick car unless you could keep the thing over 6,000 rpm the whole time. In real world driving asking for performance quickly was often difficult as the rubbish gearbox was too slow to react and on-paper slower cars would often get away. As a road car i did not rate it, although i did manage an 8 minute 2 seconds lap of the Nurburgring in it, which is pretty decent. The brakes were poor on a £60,000 sports coupe as well, very poor. Overpriced and over-valued now for me. £40,000 for a 12 year old one? Forget it, buy the best Nissan GTR you can get for the same price and hand the CSL it's arse on a plate.
Most disappointing car I've ever owned - M3
Best car I've ever owned - M3 CSL
You cannot even compare them in my experience, the CSL really is a much much better car. Those of you who are thinking the difference is purely weight are so far off the mark.
I'll regret sellng my CSL until the day I die - regardless of how much they are worth.
Best car I've ever owned - M3 CSL
You cannot even compare them in my experience, the CSL really is a much much better car. Those of you who are thinking the difference is purely weight are so far off the mark.
I'll regret sellng my CSL until the day I die - regardless of how much they are worth.
CorvetteConvert said:
I owned a mint CSL E46 and it is one of the world's most over-rated cars. Like people have said, the 1385 kgs dry weight is only with no options. Most have ICE and air-con so 1425 kgs is much more realistic.
That's what I always thoughtBy the way, the E46 M3 that Autocar tested came in at 1577kg ( presumably optioned up and with a sunroof? ( I'll have to have a look at the issue later ) )
CorvetteConvert said:
I owned a mint CSL E46 and it is one of the world's most over-rated cars. Like people have said, the 1385 kgs dry weight is only with no options. Most have ICE and air-con so 1425 kgs is much more realistic. Mine had those options and was not a particularly quick car unless you could keep the thing over 6,000 rpm the whole time. In real world driving asking for performance quickly was often difficult as the rubbish gearbox was too slow to react and on-paper slower cars would often get away. As a road car i did not rate it, although i did manage an 8 minute 2 seconds lap of the Nurburgring in it, which is pretty decent. The brakes were poor on a £60,000 sports coupe as well, very poor. Overpriced and over-valued now for me. £40,000 for a 12 year old one? Forget it, buy the best Nissan GTR you can get for the same price and hand the CSL it's arse on a plate.
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned. cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
What, so the fact I love what my CSL is means I'm a lying fanboy? Just because you bought the wrong car for what you wanted doesn't mean we're all wrong Lee!CorvetteConvert said:
I owned a mint CSL E46 and it is one of the world's most over-rated cars. Like people have said, the 1385 kgs dry weight is only with no options. Most have ICE and air-con so 1425 kgs is much more realistic. Mine had those options and was not a particularly quick car unless you could keep the thing over 6,000 rpm the whole time. In real world driving asking for performance quickly was often difficult as the rubbish gearbox was too slow to react and on-paper slower cars would often get away. As a road car i did not rate it, although i did manage an 8 minute 2 seconds lap of the Nurburgring in it, which is pretty decent. The brakes were poor on a £60,000 sports coupe as well, very poor. Overpriced and over-valued now for me. £40,000 for a 12 year old one? Forget it, buy the best Nissan GTR you can get for the same price and hand the CSL it's arse on a plate.
hard to know what to say to something like this, probably the same way I can appreciate the technical wizardry of the GTR but it does nothing for me, or that I can see why people might like big power cars but I see them as a little pointless and one dimensional? Clearly the CSL wasn't for you! Really sounds like you're the exception rather than the consensus here though, I wonder why that is?Leins said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
What, so the fact I love what my CSL is means I'm a lying fanboy? Just because you bought the wrong car for what you wanted doesn't mean we're all wrong Lee!
so I do believe you love it, surely you cant deny though that there are loads of blinkered views overall and that it is a car that if you say anything against it you are frowned upon. cerb4.5lee said:
Leins said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
What, so the fact I love what my CSL is means I'm a lying fanboy? Just because you bought the wrong car for what you wanted doesn't mean we're all wrong Lee! so I do believe you love it, surely you cant deny though that there are loads of blinkered views overall and that it is a car that if you say anything against it you are frowned upon. cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
I can't imagine you'd "appreciate the honesty" if (rightly or wrongly) someone who'd owned a Cerb came along to a thread calling it a poorly built plastic muscle car but you'd certainly know they were wrong. One poor experience doesn't make a bad car. Mine gives me such a buzz every time I drive it, perhaps that's what causes my blinkered fanboy attitude or perhaps it's because it's genuinely hilarious to drive.One thing I will say... saying it's hard to access the performance of one of the fastest responding engines I've ever experienced is a little odd.
Edited by Chapppers on Wednesday 8th July 20:51
jcremonini said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Leins said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
What, so the fact I love what my CSL is means I'm a lying fanboy? Just because you bought the wrong car for what you wanted doesn't mean we're all wrong Lee! so I do believe you love it, surely you cant deny though that there are loads of blinkered views overall and that it is a car that if you say anything against it you are frowned upon. When all said and done we all like different things and it would be a hell of a boring place if we all liked the same thing for sure.
cerb4.5lee said:
jcremonini said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Leins said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
What, so the fact I love what my CSL is means I'm a lying fanboy? Just because you bought the wrong car for what you wanted doesn't mean we're all wrong Lee! so I do believe you love it, surely you cant deny though that there are loads of blinkered views overall and that it is a car that if you say anything against it you are frowned upon. When all said and done we all like different things and it would be a hell of a boring place if we all liked the same thing for sure.
I have no knowledge of the Cerbera , btw, but I think I'll side with anyone who says they don't like them and ignore all the people who say they are great.
Chapppers said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
I can't imagine you'd "appreciate the honesty" if (rightly or wrongly) someone who'd owned a Cerb came along to a thread calling it a poorly built plastic muscle car but you'd certainly know they were wrong. One poor experience doesn't make a bad car. Mine gives me such a buzz every time I drive it, perhaps that's what causes my blinkered fanboy attitude or perhaps it's because it's genuinely hilarious to drive.One thing I will say... saying it's hard to access the performance of one of the fastest responding engines I've ever experienced is a little odd.
Edited by Chapppers on Wednesday 8th July 20:51
I did love its noise/power to weight ratio/sense of occasion/head turning ability though but that all came at a price because nine times out of ten the bloody thing wouldn't start when you wanted it to!
CorvetteConvert said:
I owned a mint CSL E46 and it is one of the world's most over-rated cars. Like people have said, the 1385 kgs dry weight is only with no options. Most have ICE and air-con so 1425 kgs is much more realistic. Mine had those options and was not a particularly quick car unless you could keep the thing over 6,000 rpm the whole time. In real world driving asking for performance quickly was often difficult as the rubbish gearbox was too slow to react and on-paper slower cars would often get away. As a road car i did not rate it, although i did manage an 8 minute 2 seconds lap of the Nurburgring in it, which is pretty decent. The brakes were poor on a £60,000 sports coupe as well, very poor. Overpriced and over-valued now for me. £40,000 for a 12 year old one? Forget it, buy the best Nissan GTR you can get for the same price and hand the CSL it's arse on a plate.
Even though I agree with some of what you say I'm not a massive fan of the GTR styling.My 2 year ownership of the csl was enjoyable but very unreliable.
I was left stranded on 3 occasions and it always felt as though I was always forced to like the gearbox and defend it because it was the only option.
Long trips were banned because you never knew whether the gearbox would hack it.
They should have made the standard M3 much less BHP and left the CSL as it is to show a massive difference in performance.
I will always have a soft spot for the CSL but if you like to play with paddles don't lie to yourself or rob yourself like I did as the DCT is far superior but the manual will always be the purists car.
cerb4.5lee said:
Chapppers said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
I can't imagine you'd "appreciate the honesty" if (rightly or wrongly) someone who'd owned a Cerb came along to a thread calling it a poorly built plastic muscle car but you'd certainly know they were wrong. One poor experience doesn't make a bad car. Mine gives me such a buzz every time I drive it, perhaps that's what causes my blinkered fanboy attitude or perhaps it's because it's genuinely hilarious to drive.One thing I will say... saying it's hard to access the performance of one of the fastest responding engines I've ever experienced is a little odd.
I did love its noise/power to weight ratio/sense of occasion/head turning ability though but that all came at a price because nine times out of ten the bloody thing wouldn't start when you wanted it to!
cerb4.5lee said:
Leins said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
What, so the fact I love what my CSL is means I'm a lying fanboy? Just because you bought the wrong car for what you wanted doesn't mean we're all wrong Lee! so I do believe you love it, surely you cant deny though that there are loads of blinkered views overall and that it is a car that if you say anything against it you are frowned upon. 
But TBH the criticism of the CSL on PH nearly always comes from the uninitiated, or from people who I believe bought the car for the wrong reasons (e.g. Daily driving). It's always complaints about the gearbox, the seats, the ride, the high-revving engine, that it's a BMW (a lowly 3-series at that), even the bloody stereo (although not in this case!) - and I think the criticism is unfair. It's like buying a Defender and then grumbling about its motorway manners
As mentioned earlier, GT3s and 360CS don't seem to get the same stick, and even in its first year a number of journos suggested that the CSL was a cut-price version of the above that captured most of the magic
However, I've never kept quiet about the one downside of the CSL, which once again no-one has mentioned here yet - steering feedback. Maybe it's because it's a "modern" car, or that it's still carrying a bit of weight in the engine bay, but it's slightly lacking in that department. Also, the steering wheel is offset slightly (Only on RHD ones IIRC), although that was pointed out to me and I've never thought about it since
But weekend fast-road / track running / Euro-trips I still maintain there's little to compete with a CSL, even at current higher prices
But here's the thing - if I was offered £70k tomorrow for mine, I'd probably take it. But only because what I believe could be the next car up the line from the CSL that I could then buy would be available - the CLK Black. I'd probably drive an Alpina B3 GT3 first too though
Or maybe even the one car that I could have bought back in 2011 for about the same money that has far outperformed the CSL in terms of value gain - the 964 Turbo 3.3. I suspect it wouldn't see which way the CSL went down my favourite road, but for me such things are all about driving pleasure, not driving times
Chapppers said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Chapppers said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
I can't imagine you'd "appreciate the honesty" if (rightly or wrongly) someone who'd owned a Cerb came along to a thread calling it a poorly built plastic muscle car but you'd certainly know they were wrong. One poor experience doesn't make a bad car. Mine gives me such a buzz every time I drive it, perhaps that's what causes my blinkered fanboy attitude or perhaps it's because it's genuinely hilarious to drive.One thing I will say... saying it's hard to access the performance of one of the fastest responding engines I've ever experienced is a little odd.
I did love its noise/power to weight ratio/sense of occasion/head turning ability though but that all came at a price because nine times out of ten the bloody thing wouldn't start when you wanted it to!
some don't like them but they are right up my street, I cant dislike the 3 series that much as I have owned three of them! I like a BMW`s dependability and it is a breath of fresh air when you have experienced TVR ownership.
Leins said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Leins said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I like this honesty rather than the typical blinkered/fanboy obsessed view you usually get whenever a M3 is mentioned.
What, so the fact I love what my CSL is means I'm a lying fanboy? Just because you bought the wrong car for what you wanted doesn't mean we're all wrong Lee! so I do believe you love it, surely you cant deny though that there are loads of blinkered views overall and that it is a car that if you say anything against it you are frowned upon. But TBH the criticism of the CSL on PH nearly always comes from the uninitiated, or from people who I believe bought the car for the wrong reasons (e.g. Daily driving). It's always complaints about the gearbox, the seats, the ride, the high-revving engine, that it's a BMW (a lowly 3-series at that), even the bloody stereo (although not in this case!) - and I think the criticism is unfair. It's like buying a Defender and then grumbling about its motorway manners
As mentioned earlier, GT3s and 360CS don't seem to get the same stick, and even in its first year a number of journos suggested that the CSL was a cut-price version of the above that captured most of the magic
However, I've never kept quiet about the one downside of the CSL, which once again no-one has mentioned here yet - steering feedback. Maybe it's because it's a "modern" car, or that it's still carrying a bit of weight in the engine bay, but it's slightly lacking in that department. Also, the steering wheel is offset slightly (Only on RHD ones IIRC), although that was pointed out to me and I've never thought about it since
But weekend fast-road / track running / Euro-trips I still maintain there's little to compete with a CSL, even at current higher prices
But here's the thing - if I was offered £70k tomorrow for mine, I'd probably take it. But only because what I believe could be the next car up the line from the CSL that I could then buy would be available - the CLK Black. I'd probably drive an Alpina B3 GT3 first too though
Or maybe even the one car that I could have bought back in 2011 for about the same money that has far outperformed the CSL in terms of value gain - the 964 Turbo 3.3. I suspect it wouldn't see which way the CSL went down my favourite road, but for me such things are all about driving pleasure, not driving times
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