Is RWD over hyped?

[RacerMDR]

Really interesting thread.

RWD for me definitely - I much prefer the way the car feels being driven from
the rear. I also prefer the amount of control I personally feel I have.

My view is as others have said - FWD is much easier to stay out of trouble with.

For a time I had a Griff500 and a CitreonC2 diesel. On a country road in the wet I was much faster in the Fwd diesel. Much quicker. The chance of ending up backwards through a hedge was too risky.

My conclusion is (as others have said) it depends on more like for like chassis quality, power to weight etc.

I wouldn't bet against a 997 or a M3,M5 etc down that same country road

it can't be a coincidence that essentially all top end cars are RWD. I think the boffins at Ferrari, Zonda etc know what they're doing.

Even Lambo etc with AWD have a rear biased dynamic.

Can anyone give me a high end FWD car? I can't think of anything

[thinfourth2]

neil_bolton said:

Overhyped you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mfk58IW8uY

So are you saying all RWD cars will do that?

[neil_bolton]

thinfourth2 said:

neil_bolton said:

Overhyped you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mfk58IW8uY

So are you saying all RWD cars will do that?

Seem to in my hands at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAZ9u9oxJTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VXc7oajJo&t=5...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VXc7oajJo&t=7...

Seriously. If you want to slide from the rear, it's not about power. Its' about knowing how to do it, and how to control its momentum.

RWD is better in 90% of situations. There isn't any real argument to be honest.

[hotmelt]

Ford 2 said:

RWD for me too. Alot more fun, rewarding but dangerous at the same time. FWD is just plain and simply boring. Might be faster at time's all the same But just boring imo

When speaking about rewarding but dangerous check 205 gti video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGjSEs0uk8U

[RWD cossie wil]

AnotherClarkey said:

RWD cossie wil said:

RWD is a different matter, too much throttle will see the back end overtaking the front, and will continue to do so until you do somthing about it.

Why is this behaviour seen as 'better'?

And if you make a mess of it, go into a corner too fast and back off hard, why is a FWD car more prone to understeer than RWD? On almost every car I have driven if you back off hard going into a corner it will either tighten its line or oversteer. The one exception being a Volvo 340 which would understeer in almost any situation.

Because it is great FUN!! Also it provides the driver a means of altering the attitude of the car through the corner on the throttle. MOST FWD cars are set up to be as safe as possible in as many situations as possible for the average driver, which for 99% of people is understeer, as it self-corrects and scrubs speed off. A lot of RWD cars are set up to be more aggresive, and assume a greater degree of driver skill.

[thinfourth2]

RWD cossie wil said:

AnotherClarkey said:

RWD cossie wil said:

RWD is a different matter, too much throttle will see the back end overtaking the front, and will continue to do so until you do somthing about it.

Why is this behaviour seen as 'better'?

And if you make a mess of it, go into a corner too fast and back off hard, why is a FWD car more prone to understeer than RWD? On almost every car I have driven if you back off hard going into a corner it will either tighten its line or oversteer. The one exception being a Volvo 340 which would understeer in almost any situation.

Because it is great FUN!! Also it provides the driver a means of altering the attitude of the car through the corner on the throttle. MOST FWD cars are set up to be as safe as possible in as many situations as possible for the average driver, which for 99% of people is understeer, as it self-corrects and scrubs speed off. A lot of RWD cars are set up to be more aggresive, and assume a greater degree of driver skill.

And alot of RWd cars understeer like a shopping trolley

So maybe its the set-up rather then what fecking wheels are driven

[Great Pretender]

thinfourth2 said:

Basically RWD is over hyped by the macho fkwits.

Uh oh...

[RobM77]

thinfourth2 said:

RWD cossie wil said:

AnotherClarkey said:

RWD cossie wil said:

RWD is a different matter, too much throttle will see the back end overtaking the front, and will continue to do so until you do somthing about it.

Why is this behaviour seen as 'better'?

And if you make a mess of it, go into a corner too fast and back off hard, why is a FWD car more prone to understeer than RWD? On almost every car I have driven if you back off hard going into a corner it will either tighten its line or oversteer. The one exception being a Volvo 340 which would understeer in almost any situation.

Because it is great FUN!! Also it provides the driver a means of altering the attitude of the car through the corner on the throttle. MOST FWD cars are set up to be as safe as possible in as many situations as possible for the average driver, which for 99% of people is understeer, as it self-corrects and scrubs speed off. A lot of RWD cars are set up to be more aggresive, and assume a greater degree of driver skill.

And alot of RWd cars understeer like a shopping trolley

So maybe its the set-up rather then what fecking wheels are driven

No. Setup is something completely different. I've raced neutrally setup FWD and RWD cars and which wheels are driven is a defining factor in how a car drives, and is separate from setup, what engine it's got and other things mentioned here.

[RWD cossie wil]

thinfourth2 said:

RWD cossie wil said:

AnotherClarkey said:

RWD cossie wil said:

RWD is a different matter, too much throttle will see the back end overtaking the front, and will continue to do so until you do somthing about it.

Why is this behaviour seen as 'better'?

And if you make a mess of it, go into a corner too fast and back off hard, why is a FWD car more prone to understeer than RWD? On almost every car I have driven if you back off hard going into a corner it will either tighten its line or oversteer. The one exception being a Volvo 340 which would understeer in almost any situation.

Because it is great FUN!! Also it provides the driver a means of altering the attitude of the car through the corner on the throttle. MOST FWD cars are set up to be as safe as possible in as many situations as possible for the average driver, which for 99% of people is understeer, as it self-corrects and scrubs speed off. A lot of RWD cars are set up to be more aggresive, and assume a greater degree of driver skill.

And alot of RWd cars understeer like a shopping trolley

So maybe its the set-up rather then what fecking wheels are driven

You can make pretty much any car handle like an utter pig, or very well given enough time, money and adjustability.

Seriously, you seem to have a major problem with rear wheel drive cars? I suggest you go and spend some time doing some karting, it is great fun, and teaches you a lot about the dynamics of a RWD car in a safe enviroment.

[hotmelt]

RobM77 said:

thinfourth2 said:

RWD cossie wil said:

AnotherClarkey said:

RWD cossie wil said:

RWD is a different matter, too much throttle will see the back end overtaking the front, and will continue to do so until you do somthing about it.

Why is this behaviour seen as 'better'?

And if you make a mess of it, go into a corner too fast and back off hard, why is a FWD car more prone to understeer than RWD? On almost every car I have driven if you back off hard going into a corner it will either tighten its line or oversteer. The one exception being a Volvo 340 which would understeer in almost any situation.

Because it is great FUN!! Also it provides the driver a means of altering the attitude of the car through the corner on the throttle. MOST FWD cars are set up to be as safe as possible in as many situations as possible for the average driver, which for 99% of people is understeer, as it self-corrects and scrubs speed off. A lot of RWD cars are set up to be more aggresive, and assume a greater degree of driver skill.

And alot of RWd cars understeer like a shopping trolley

So maybe its the set-up rather then what fecking wheels are driven

No. Setup is something completely different. I've raced neutrally setup FWD and RWD cars and which wheels are driven is a defining factor in how a car drives, and is separate from setup, what engine it's got and other things mentioned here.

Set-up is most important. And unfortunatelly most road Rwd-s are set to benignly and understeery. Rear drive gives better steering feel than equally setup Fwd though.

[thinfourth2]

RobM77 said:

And alot of RWd cars understeer like a shopping trolley

So maybe its the set-up rather then what fecking wheels are driven

No. Setup is something completely different. I've raced neutrally setup FWD and RWD cars and which wheels are driven is a defining factor in how a car drives, and is separate from setup, what engine it's got and other things mentioned here.

Okay

Two cars one RWD and one FWD

The FWD have been properly set-up corner weighted and all the geo set-up exactly the way you want.

The RWD one has 4 springs found in a skip, 2 working shock absorbers, a steering rack from a yugo, 4 different sized wheels all of which point in slightly different directions.

Which one will be better to drive

[Great Pretender]

thinfourth2 said:

RobM77 said:

No. Setup is something completely different. I've raced neutrally setup FWD and RWD cars and which wheels are driven is a defining factor in how a car drives, and is separate from setup, what engine it's got and other things mentioned here.

Okay

Two cars one RWD and one FWD

The FWD have been properly set-up corner weighted and all the geo set-up exactly the way you want.

The RWD one has 4 springs found in a skip, 2 working shock absorbers, a steering rack from a yugo, 4 different sized wheels all of which point in slightly different directions.

Which one will be better to drive

The RWD car?

Edited by Great Pretender on Monday 3rd January 11:42

[jeebus]

neil_bolton said:

thinfourth2 said:

neil_bolton said:

Overhyped you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mfk58IW8uY

So are you saying all RWD cars will do that?

Seem to in my hands at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAZ9u9oxJTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VXc7oajJo&t=5...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VXc7oajJo&t=7...

Seriously. If you want to slide from the rear, it's not about power. Its' about knowing how to do it, and how to control its momentum.

RWD is better in 90% of situations. There isn't any real argument to be honest.

How is it better in 90% of situations, there is no need to slide whatsoever on the road and if you do it on the track you will find yourself being overtaken and ruining your tyres. Other than it being fun like your video's show there is no need for it whatsoever.

This subject makes me laugh, when I see yanks getting in a twist about driving a "stick shift" it reminds me of the rwd vs fwd arguments you see on here. The only thing I think about when driving a rwd car is to be carefull in the wet or you could end up backwards in a hedge.

[Great Pretender]

jeebus said:

neil_bolton said:

thinfourth2 said:

neil_bolton said:

Overhyped you say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mfk58IW8uY

So are you saying all RWD cars will do that?

Seem to in my hands at least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAZ9u9oxJTI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VXc7oajJo&t=5...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1VXc7oajJo&t=7...

Seriously. If you want to slide from the rear, it's not about power. Its' about knowing how to do it, and how to control its momentum.

RWD is better in 90% of situations. There isn't any real argument to be honest.

How is it better in 90% of situations, there is no need to slide whatsoever on the road and if you do it on the track you will find yourself being overtaken and ruining your tyres. Other than it being fun like your video's show there is no need for it whatsoever.

This subject makes me laugh, when I see yanks getting in a twist about driving a "stick shift" it reminds me of the rwd vs fwd arguments you see on here. The only thing I think about when driving a rwd car is to be carefull in the wet or you could end up backwards in a hedge.

Which in fairness only serves to highlight your inexperience (no offence).

There are many FWD cars which are fabulous fun to drive; my MK1 Focus RS stands as one of my favourite cars to date, but that sort of attitude to RWD cars is nonsense I'm afraid.

[Ten Ninety]

RobM77 said:

The only people I've ever met that think RWD is over-hyped simply aren't very experienced or capable drivers. Equally, the same can be said of people that think RWD is all about power oversteer, or that a 316i is crap and a 330 is great, just because of the difference in engine size - utter twaddle. This is all a little like me saying that a particular style of golf club is "all hype" or "all about the swing", when in fact I'm just crap at golf The difference is that I don't go onto golf forums and start trying to tell people they're wrong...

I'm inclined to agree with that first point. I think RWD is over-hyped, and I don't consider myself to be a particularly capable driver even after 20-something years. However, I disagree entirely with your second assertion that my lack of ability invalidates my opinion. In fact, I would suggest that the reverse is actually true: Your standing as a knowledgeable, capable, serious driver with a wealth of road and track experience places you in a tiny minority compared to most of us on the road. Such a minority in fact, that I would respectfully suggest your opinion actually has little relevance to us mere mortal drivers, as you are able to benefit from a whole myriad of things like 'balance' and 'steering feel' that remain mythically elusive to most of us.

Of course you, as an individual, are not at fault. You're not over-hyping anything - you're just stating your opinion based on your experience. However, when the motoring media circus starts up on this issue it's a different matter. Writers at the 'enthusiast' end of the market also tend to be experienced, capable drivers, many of whom have track or racing pedigree. So they tell us wonderful tales about the joys of RWD without ever realising that their audience is rather less skilled - many of us have no hope of accessing or appreciating many of the subtleties that they can detect, or indeed of even reaching the sort of limits where the location of a car's driven wheels becomes apparent to the driver. And that's before we even get on to the idea which so many of these journos propound that deliberately hanging the back end out on every corner is somehow cool, manly and desirable, when in reality for those of us with limited ability it's just plain scary and dangerous.

RWD being over-hyped is not about whether it's actually 'better' than the alternatives - it's about it being held up as some kind of singular holy grail of driving enjoyment. Yes, it may well be of critical importance to that minority of highly-capable drivers but for most people I genuinely believe there are other, more significant attributes which will determine whether they enjoy driving a car long before they get to worry about which end is being driven.

[physprof]

jeebus said:

The only thing I think about when driving a rwd car is to be carefull in the wet or you could end up backwards in a hedge.

Oh FFS!

Possibly, if you drive around like a brain dead de-sensitised plank with your foot pressing the accelerator to the floor.

The majority of people here advocating RWD are IMHO suggesting that in RWD you learn that the accelerator pedal is not an ON/OFF pedal; but instead differing degrees of applicaiton allied to vehicle and environment will ellicit a wide range of performance and access 200+ bhp more productively than a FWD can.

[jeebus]

Great Pretender no offence taken maybe I should of been more clear on my post, I was refering to your everyday runaround type car, dont get me wrong if you want a real purist type drivers car then rwd is the way to go as far as weight distribution and power delivery to the driven wheels etc. But for your everyday workhorse then there is no fwd vs rwd argument as in my eyes there is no notable difference.

[jeebus]

physprof said:

jeebus said:

The only thing I think about when driving a rwd car is to be carefull in the wet or you could end up backwards in a hedge.

Oh FFS!

Possibly, if you drive around like a brain dead de-sensitised plank with your foot pressing the accelerator to the floor.

The majority of people here advocating RWD are IMHO suggesting that in RWD you learn that the accelerator pedal is not an ON/OFF pedal; but instead differing degrees of applicaiton allied to vehicle and environment will ellicit a wide range of performance and access 200+ bhp more productively than a FWD can.

No what im saying is that if you drive like a tit in a rwd car in the wrong conditions then you will become unstuck, whereas in a fwd car you can get away with a hell of a lot more. Or more to the point a fwd car is a lot more forgiving to ham fisted drivers with no common sense.

[Great Pretender]

Ten Ninety said:

RobM77 said:

The only people I've ever met that think RWD is over-hyped simply aren't very experienced or capable drivers. Equally, the same can be said of people that think RWD is all about power oversteer, or that a 316i is crap and a 330 is great, just because of the difference in engine size - utter twaddle. This is all a little like me saying that a particular style of golf club is "all hype" or "all about the swing", when in fact I'm just crap at golf The difference is that I don't go onto golf forums and start trying to tell people they're wrong...

I'm inclined to agree with that first point. I think RWD is over-hyped, and I don't consider myself to be a particularly capable driver even after 20-something years. However, I disagree entirely with your second assertion that my lack of ability invalidates my opinion. In fact, I would suggest that the reverse is actually true: Your standing as a knowledgeable, capable, serious driver with a wealth of road and track experience places you in a tiny minority compared to most of us on the road. Such a minority in fact, that I would respectfully suggest your opinion actually has little relevance to us mere mortal drivers, as you are able to benefit from a whole myriad of things like 'balance' and 'steering feel' that remain mythically elusive to most of us.

Of course you, as an individual, are not at fault. You're not over-hyping anything - you're just stating your opinion based on your experience. However, when the motoring media circus starts up on this issue it's a different matter. Writers at the 'enthusiast' end of the market also tend to be experienced, capable drivers, many of whom have track or racing pedigree. So they tell us wonderful tales about the joys of RWD without ever realising that their audience is rather less skilled - many of us have no hope of accessing or appreciating many of the subtleties that they can detect, or indeed of even reaching the sort of limits where the location of a car's driven wheels becomes apparent to the driver. And that's before we even get on to the idea which so many of these journos propound that deliberately hanging the back end out on every corner is somehow cool, manly and desirable, when in reality for those of us with limited ability it's just plain scary and dangerous.

RWD being over-hyped is not about whether it's actually 'better' than the alternatives - it's about it being held up as some kind of singular holy grail of driving enjoyment. Yes, it may well be of critical importance to that minority of highly-capable drivers but for most people I genuinely believe there are other, more significant attributes which will determine whether they enjoy driving a car long before they get to worry about which end is being driven.

By God Jim - he's right!

[otolith]

Most drivers aren't very discerning and most cars aren't very interesting. And funnily enough, most cars are front wheel drive, with rear wheel drive cars disproportionately represented amongst interesting cars aimed at discerning drivers. So what's the problem? No point casting pearls before swine.