Discussion
Finally some facts,.... well at least one or two.
Saab-Spykers accounts have been posted, last year they made a loss of 76.3 million euros, which is $112.9 million dollars. Which is probably the amount that Audi spend on catering, so in the grand scheme of things is not actualy that bad. And if you were looking at it from a political point of view is also chicken feed compared to the amount of money certain governments have been illegaly contracted into paying for two aircraft carriers.
They are now admitting that the production line has now been shut with no cars been produced since the 4th April, which is about a week after the first rumours came out.
Mueller has flown to China. Keeps him out of harms way or any probing questions from the press. Hopefully he flew economy.
Antonov has pumped in $60million while 'Plan B' is sorted out. What this money is going to be used for is unclear but it wouldn't appear to be enough to re-start the production as that hasn't happened at time of writing. Interestingly it would appear to be twice the amount paid byWonga.com the Swedish government as a loan on the 15th. Has this loan been guaranteed by the deeds to properties and the parts department? No one would appear to know.
The latest spin:
"We're keeping the production line closed to introduce another facelift to the 9-3 based on styling cues from the new 9-5. We were going to do this later but we've take this break to rush forward changes to the range."
"Mueller is talking to at least three Chinese manufacturers about investment & so is Antonov with his rich Russian buddies. This will help launch Saab into the Russian & Asian markets where they have no sales representation at the moment."
Toad thoughts (pure guesswork by the way and I was wrong about that meeting!)
Antonovs investment so far would appear to be to payback the Swedish Government and have enough money to pick up payroll at the end of May. He is now running round his buddies trying to drum up some funds on the promise of possibly transfering some production to Russia. Which is interesting, as I would imagine that Muelller is telling the Chinese exactly the same thing. But if I were the Chinese I would be thinking, why invest now when I can pick all the tooling and IP when it all goes belly up in a few months anyway if the Russians don't invest? And if I was the Russians I would be thinking exactly the same thing.
Both Mueller & Antonov will have done their homework (probably on the pack of a fag packet in an airport Starbucks.) and will know that they now need one of either the Russians or the Chinese plus additional funding from the EIB to make the whole thing viable. If the Russians or the Chinese don't come in, it will be back to the EIB one last time for the whole amount. However if Antonov has secured that loan against the property and parts departments that really will be one sweet deal for him.
Been wrong before but if 'Plan B' doesn't work, they will not get any additional funding from the EIB and it will be so long Trollhatten at the end of May.
Do you know what the biggest joke about all this is? That 9-4X is a very good looking car. If it was diesel & Qashqai money & not built in Mexico & not based on a Chevy... oh... forget it.
But I have been wrong before. Like about that horse becoming Pope, for one.
Saab-Spykers accounts have been posted, last year they made a loss of 76.3 million euros, which is $112.9 million dollars. Which is probably the amount that Audi spend on catering, so in the grand scheme of things is not actualy that bad. And if you were looking at it from a political point of view is also chicken feed compared to the amount of money certain governments have been illegaly contracted into paying for two aircraft carriers.
They are now admitting that the production line has now been shut with no cars been produced since the 4th April, which is about a week after the first rumours came out.
Mueller has flown to China. Keeps him out of harms way or any probing questions from the press. Hopefully he flew economy.
Antonov has pumped in $60million while 'Plan B' is sorted out. What this money is going to be used for is unclear but it wouldn't appear to be enough to re-start the production as that hasn't happened at time of writing. Interestingly it would appear to be twice the amount paid by
The latest spin:
"We're keeping the production line closed to introduce another facelift to the 9-3 based on styling cues from the new 9-5. We were going to do this later but we've take this break to rush forward changes to the range."
"Mueller is talking to at least three Chinese manufacturers about investment & so is Antonov with his rich Russian buddies. This will help launch Saab into the Russian & Asian markets where they have no sales representation at the moment."
Toad thoughts (pure guesswork by the way and I was wrong about that meeting!)
Antonovs investment so far would appear to be to payback the Swedish Government and have enough money to pick up payroll at the end of May. He is now running round his buddies trying to drum up some funds on the promise of possibly transfering some production to Russia. Which is interesting, as I would imagine that Muelller is telling the Chinese exactly the same thing. But if I were the Chinese I would be thinking, why invest now when I can pick all the tooling and IP when it all goes belly up in a few months anyway if the Russians don't invest? And if I was the Russians I would be thinking exactly the same thing.
Both Mueller & Antonov will have done their homework (probably on the pack of a fag packet in an airport Starbucks.) and will know that they now need one of either the Russians or the Chinese plus additional funding from the EIB to make the whole thing viable. If the Russians or the Chinese don't come in, it will be back to the EIB one last time for the whole amount. However if Antonov has secured that loan against the property and parts departments that really will be one sweet deal for him.
Been wrong before but if 'Plan B' doesn't work, they will not get any additional funding from the EIB and it will be so long Trollhatten at the end of May.
Do you know what the biggest joke about all this is? That 9-4X is a very good looking car. If it was diesel & Qashqai money & not built in Mexico & not based on a Chevy... oh... forget it.
But I have been wrong before. Like about that horse becoming Pope, for one.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Friday 29th April 11:09
RedLeicester said:
Is there something more afoot than the round of internet rumors? I'm just curious that as mentioned above, the press in general don't seem to have commented much if at all about Saab, and apart from an oblique reference in the Autocar first drive of the 9-4X, neither they nor the Daly-Wail-esque Autoexpress have passed comment on the situation at all.....???
Most of this stuff is available all over the net business sites like Bloomberg/Reuters etc if you are a sad b
d like me with no life. saabsunited.com isn't too bad as well, if you can get past the blind faith.Anyway latest news;
Another $30 million dollar loan from the GEMINI bank this time (whoever they are), will enable production to re-start on Thursday.
There will be a press conference tomorrow to announce a new partnership between Saab and the HawTai Motor Vehicle company of China. Be interesting to see what that brings, who knows Mueller and Antonov might have brought home the bacon.
They have just lost the licence to produce Hyundai Matrix and Santa Fes in China, so they need some new product quick. They have also had some issues over some of their styling and how similar it would appear to be to the Porsche Cayenne. A quick look on google images would suggest that they like the Mini and some Bentleys as well.
Now confirmed that Hawtai Motor Group have bought a 30% stake in Saab for £134 million. This is now on the BBC website so finally someone in the UK is taking an interest apart from me.
Seems a very small amount for 1/3 of the company & certainly won't be enough to pay BMW for the old Mini architecture to start the 9-1. Can't help feeling that certainly at the moment we don't know the whole story on this one. But its good to know my friends who still work for Saab won't be looking for a new job just yet.
Seems a very small amount for 1/3 of the company & certainly won't be enough to pay BMW for the old Mini architecture to start the 9-1. Can't help feeling that certainly at the moment we don't know the whole story on this one. But its good to know my friends who still work for Saab won't be looking for a new job just yet.
Slade Alive said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
This is now on the BBC website so finally someone in the UK is taking an interest apart from me.
Could it be Toad, you think you're the only one taking an interest is all. Sorry but your opinions are often more nauseating than the thought of Saab folding. Have some faith man. Saab will survive.Here's what I base my faith on.
There are too many car companies/brands chasing too few customers, there will be casualties.
The new 9-5 isn't good enough.
The 9-3 isn't & never has been good enough.
The new 9-4 is already over-priced and there won't be a diesel option at launch in Europe.
That $150 million isn't enough to save the company but it does put Hawtai in a good position to strip the company if it does go breasts up.
All Mueller and Antonov really care about is Spyker and themselves.
I have friends, good friends, who still work for Saab like I did for nine years. They will lose their jobs if Saab go. They might lose their houses. They are either desperatly clinging to any hope or looking to get out as soon as possible. These people will be directly affected if Saab go and not just because they have fantasies about how great the old T16S was or how Saab can rise to compete with the Germans again. I loved Saab but what I really wish is that they could have gone with a degree of dignity instead of this long drawn out death rattle.
I've bookmarked this thread because in a years time if I'm wrong I'll apologise, I have no issue with that. I hope you've done this too, as I'll be expecting the same thing from you if I'm right.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Wednesday 4th May 06:02
Slade Alive said:
All in your opinion of course.
9-3 might not be a Saab of old, but it ain't that bad a car despite half the world telling us it is when they only sold a few thousand of them. Funny how the rumour mill starts. You and your comments don't help do they.
9-4 is blighted by GM's control. Pretty much as Saabs fate hangs in the balance of GM's clauses. Frankly I prefer that Saab rid all diesel models. They've been pretty much plagued with problems. Better to sell what Saab sell well. Quirky cars only a few in relative terms to others will buy. Saab peaked at around 150.000 cars per year. I'm sure Muller is smarter than you when he realises he doesn't need anywhere near that number to profit. He needs time and firm foundations.
9-5 is a fabulous car. It will do well if only people would let it. Instead there's this ridiculous notion that Saab through GM years has made poor cars compared to what Saab once did on their own, so it's better for Saab to die with dignity rather than make another poor car. Who says it's a poor car? You Toad? Your Saab friends? The rest of the world? What rollocks. If it were so bad it wouldn't be where it is today. On sale.
Will I buy one to do my bit? Hell no. But I assure you I am doing plenty already to help and support Saab, as I have been doing for more years than I care to count. So no you won't be getting an apology if things go belly up for them. It's your best guess is all and I'm not interested in guesses, which is why your comments often nauseate me for making out like you know ever so much when really you only know what's posted on the bloody net. If it were anything different you'd be Muller's right hand man. Instead you're a fickle friend to Saab is all.
Yep its my opinion. That's what most of the internet is for.9-3 might not be a Saab of old, but it ain't that bad a car despite half the world telling us it is when they only sold a few thousand of them. Funny how the rumour mill starts. You and your comments don't help do they.
9-4 is blighted by GM's control. Pretty much as Saabs fate hangs in the balance of GM's clauses. Frankly I prefer that Saab rid all diesel models. They've been pretty much plagued with problems. Better to sell what Saab sell well. Quirky cars only a few in relative terms to others will buy. Saab peaked at around 150.000 cars per year. I'm sure Muller is smarter than you when he realises he doesn't need anywhere near that number to profit. He needs time and firm foundations.
9-5 is a fabulous car. It will do well if only people would let it. Instead there's this ridiculous notion that Saab through GM years has made poor cars compared to what Saab once did on their own, so it's better for Saab to die with dignity rather than make another poor car. Who says it's a poor car? You Toad? Your Saab friends? The rest of the world? What rollocks. If it were so bad it wouldn't be where it is today. On sale.
Will I buy one to do my bit? Hell no. But I assure you I am doing plenty already to help and support Saab, as I have been doing for more years than I care to count. So no you won't be getting an apology if things go belly up for them. It's your best guess is all and I'm not interested in guesses, which is why your comments often nauseate me for making out like you know ever so much when really you only know what's posted on the bloody net. If it were anything different you'd be Muller's right hand man. Instead you're a fickle friend to Saab is all.
Edited by Slade Alive on Thursday 5th May 02:38
But what you don't actually seem to understand is that I don't want Saab to fail. It might look like it from my posts but as most people on here will attest I'm at a best a glass half empty kind of guy. But let me deal with some of your points.
1.) I'm guessing (there's that word again) that you are a Saab Specialist? If so maybe have a chat with some of your competitors about the current shape 9-3s reliabilty record. There is a guy on here from time to time who sells used Saabs and hopefully at some stage he may enter this debate. He can tell you horror stories with regard to build quality and reliability and he has been a used Saab Specialist for over 20 years. He has now stopped selling the saloons and only deals in the Convertible because the others just are not worth the grief.
2.) You're kidding, right? Please tell me you are kidding? Do you know anyone who is currently selling cars? I do. I have good friends who are salesman & sales managers from a wide variety of brands from luxury to volume & unless its a small city car or high performance sports car the only cars that are selling in large numbers are diesels and if you are talking about the type of car the 9-4 is aiming to beat, auto diesels. The general public are panicing about two things at the moment, RFL & fuel economy. If you're going to buy a Saab, walk into an Audi dealership and see what the waiting list is for a diesel A1 or A3 or A4 or A5 or TT or Q5 or even TT. Even my friends at Saab say that the only cars that they are selling are the extremely fuel and RFL efficent diesels that Saab have put on sale and you want them to stop production?
3.) Walk away from the computer. Go and read the independent reviews in the motoring press (which of course I with biased view, haven't written.). Hunt especially hard and find the Motorsport Magazine review by Andrew Frankel. Realise that with reviews like that it doesn't stand a chance. Then go and see if you can find one on the road which is not a Saab dealers demo. (Weird that a lot of people on this thread can't seem to find one either.) Finally have a look at the sales figures for the 5 Series, the Skoda Superb, the A6, the Mercedes E Class, the Alfa 159 against the 9-5. Then if you do just sell Saabs actually go and drive a 5 series or a new shape A6. Go on, do a mystery shop exercise. Then tell me the new 9-5 car is actually a better car. And don't just come back with reviews don't matter. Ask Vauxhall about what happened after Clarksons review of the Vectra. Ask Jaguar salesman what happened after his "its just a posh Mondeo," comments about the X-Type. But while you are there, ask some Nissan salesman what happened after his recent review of the Juke and they'll tell you nothing at all, its still selling large numbers. Why? Because its a car people feel excited about, those other cars aren't. To coin BMWs catchphrase, they have no joy about them.
The 9-5 is not a good enough and that isn't just my view, its the motoring press and the general publics view too.
And as for Muller knowing what he is doing? He knows that alright. He is feathering a very nice nest with a lot of taxpayers money for him and his mates, some which he will pump into his pathetic little would be sports car company which sells at the most 50 cars a year to German porn film directors and Dutch businessmen who like a smoke and a pancake.
Remember at the start of all of this he was running round saying "No, no, we don't need extra funding, its a glitch in our invoicing computer, we'll get it sorted quickly. That's why we haven't paid anyone," So he's a liar too. And that's Swedish newspaper websites if you want to go digging. I wouldn't trust the man with making the tea, let alone be his right hand man.
I have said it again and again, he is doing a Rover! And other people, not just on this thread, agree with me.
And there is one basic simple fact.
Saab need billions. Not just a few million here from a dodgy Russian or 150 from a Chinese company that make Cayenne copies. BILLIONS. To get that they need to sell cars. To sell cars they need a decent product range. That for whatever reason the public don't think they have, so in order to fund new cars they need more money. Because it takes a minimum of at least three years to design, build, test and start manufacture of a new model they need funding because they won't be selling enough of the current poor range to keep themselves in business. And that money needs to be in the order of 50 million a month. Oh and lets not forget the existing debt that they need to payoff too.
So in case you didn't get that, they need BILLIONS. And the new product better be something amazing as well, not just a new body on an old Mini.
If the money for one does arrive I will be delighted and probably dance a jig. I don't want to see anyone lose their living. What you need to do if your company does depend on Mr Muellers business skills, is get your head out of the sand and start making plans for if Saab go to Valhalla. I know I would be.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Thursday 5th May 10:19
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Thursday 5th May 11:01
Slade Alive said:
What's the 9-3 to do with the new 9-5 and Saab's long term future?
Then you know nothing about the motor industry and come to that, retailing in general. If a company has a reputation for poor reliability and if the product hasn't excited then that carries over to the next one and its image in future.
Cool reply, shame it doesn't answer the question. Again proves you know nothing about the current UK motor retailing market. The 9-5 won't get a chance. For a start want to tell me where the marketing budget is going to come from? The estate car will now be at least 3 months late due to the stop in production. Wishing and blind faith will not make sales happen
That's why they sell - to those wanting a Saab. And there aren't enough people who want them, thats why they aren't selling any cars, the market has gone. The architects, dentists and lawyers have long gone to those same 5 series or A6s that you so easily dismiss. So please tell us who Saab's market now is? I'm sure every one is dying to know. When I sold them we're told all the time are the targets were Audi, BMW & Merc. Saab make executive saloons and convertibles so if they are no longing competing against them, who is it competing against now? Ford? Vauxhall? VW? Skoda? Seat? Alfa? And Saab's numbers need to be close to making a profit in order to survive and they are a million miles away from that.
My opinion on the car doesn't matter. Its press reviews that the general public mostly take notice of. If the car doesn't excite or gets poor reviews they won't even walk in the showroom
Then take some Pepto-Bismol. And once you've recovered maybe come back and post something that isn't just blind faith in a product that's in serious trouble.
I think all you have done in this post is prove that you have no idea how the world in general have seen Saab for some considerable time. All the 'answers' you have given above are like re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.Then you know nothing about the motor industry and come to that, retailing in general. If a company has a reputation for poor reliability and if the product hasn't excited then that carries over to the next one and its image in future.
The Hypno-Toad said:
2.) You're kidding, right? Please tell me you are kidding? Do you know anyone who is currently selling cars? I do. I have good friends who are salesman & sales managers from a wide variety of brands from luxury to volume & unless its a small city car or high performance sports car the only cars that are selling in large numbers are diesels and if you are talking about the type of car the 9-4 is aiming to beat, auto diesels. The general public are panicing about two things at the moment, RFL & fuel economy. If you're going to buy a Saab, walk into an Audi dealership and see what the waiting list is for a diesel A1 or A3 or A4 or A5 or TT or Q5 or even TT. Even my friends at Saab say that the only cars that they are selling are the extremely fuel and RFL efficent diesels that Saab have put on sale and you want them to stop production?
Who gives a 5hit? Given a chance 9-5 will sell. The estate car more so. Cool reply, shame it doesn't answer the question. Again proves you know nothing about the current UK motor retailing market. The 9-5 won't get a chance. For a start want to tell me where the marketing budget is going to come from? The estate car will now be at least 3 months late due to the stop in production. Wishing and blind faith will not make sales happen
The Hypno-Toad said:
3.) Walk away from the computer. Go and read the independent reviews in the motoring press (which of course I with biased view, haven't written.). Hunt especially hard and find the Motorsport Magazine review by Andrew Frankel. Realise that with reviews like that it doesn't stand a chance. Then go and see if you can find one on the road which is not a Saab dealers demo. (Weird that a lot of people on this thread can't seem to find one either.) Finally have a look at the sales figures for the 5 Series, the Skoda Superb, the A6, the Mercedes E Class, the Alfa 159 against the 9-5. Then if you do just sell Saabs actually go and drive a 5 series or a new shape A6. Go on, do a mystery shop exercise. Then tell me the new 9-5 car is actually a better car. And don't just come back with reviews don't matter. Ask Vauxhall about what happened after Clarksons review of the Vectra. Ask Jaguar salesman what happened after his "its just a posh Mondeo," comments about the X-Type. But while you are there, ask some Nissan salesman what happened after his recent review of the Juke and they'll tell you nothing at all, its still selling large numbers. Why? Because its a car people feel excited about, those other cars aren't. To coin BMWs catchphrase, they have no joy about them.
Again who gives a 5hit. We all know how good the 5 series platform is. So what. It doesn't apply to those wanting a 9-5. Saab is Saab. That's why they sell - to those wanting a Saab. Not a BMW, Audi, Merc, whatever. And Saab production numbers don't need to be anywhere near those guys either. That's how it's always been at Saab. Will likely always be too. That's why they sell - to those wanting a Saab. And there aren't enough people who want them, thats why they aren't selling any cars, the market has gone. The architects, dentists and lawyers have long gone to those same 5 series or A6s that you so easily dismiss. So please tell us who Saab's market now is? I'm sure every one is dying to know. When I sold them we're told all the time are the targets were Audi, BMW & Merc. Saab make executive saloons and convertibles so if they are no longing competing against them, who is it competing against now? Ford? Vauxhall? VW? Skoda? Seat? Alfa? And Saab's numbers need to be close to making a profit in order to survive and they are a million miles away from that.
The Hypno-Toad said:
The 9-5 is not a good enough and that isn't just my view, its the motoring press and the general publics view too.
So you keep saying even though you've never driven one.My opinion on the car doesn't matter. Its press reviews that the general public mostly take notice of. If the car doesn't excite or gets poor reviews they won't even walk in the showroom
The Hypno-Toad said:
And as for Muller knowing what he is doing? He knows that alright. He is feathering a very nice nest with a lot of taxpayers money for him and his mates, some which he will pump into his pathetic little would be sports car company which sells at the most 50 cars a year to German porn film directors and Dutch businessmen who like a smoke and a pancake.
Remember at the start of all of this he was running round saying "No, no, we don't need extra funding, its a glitch in our invoicing computer, we'll get it sorted quickly. That's why we haven't paid anyone," So he's a liar too. And that's Swedish newspaper websites if you want to go digging. I wouldn't trust the man with making the tea, let alone be his right hand man.
I have said it again and again, he is doing a Rover! And other people, not just on this thread, agree with me.
And there is one basic simple fact.
Saab need billions. Not just a few million here from a dodgy Russian or 150 from a Chinese company that make Cayenne copies. BILLIONS. To get that they need to sell cars. To sell cars they need a decent product range. That for whatever reason the public don't think they have, so in order to fund new cars they need more money. Because it takes a minimum of at least three years to design, build, test and start manufacture of a new model they need funding because they won't be selling enough of the current poor range to keep themselves in business. And that money needs to be in the order of 50 million a month. Oh and lets not forget the existing debt that they need to payoff too.
So in case you didn't get that, they need BILLIONS. And the new product better be something amazing as well, not just a new body on an old Mini.
If the money for one does arrive I will be delighted and probably dance a jig. I don't want to see anyone lose their living. What you need to do if your company does depend on Mr Muellers business skills, is get your head out of the sand and start making plans for if Saab go to Valhalla. I know I would be.
You're nauseating me again.Remember at the start of all of this he was running round saying "No, no, we don't need extra funding, its a glitch in our invoicing computer, we'll get it sorted quickly. That's why we haven't paid anyone," So he's a liar too. And that's Swedish newspaper websites if you want to go digging. I wouldn't trust the man with making the tea, let alone be his right hand man.
I have said it again and again, he is doing a Rover! And other people, not just on this thread, agree with me.
And there is one basic simple fact.
Saab need billions. Not just a few million here from a dodgy Russian or 150 from a Chinese company that make Cayenne copies. BILLIONS. To get that they need to sell cars. To sell cars they need a decent product range. That for whatever reason the public don't think they have, so in order to fund new cars they need more money. Because it takes a minimum of at least three years to design, build, test and start manufacture of a new model they need funding because they won't be selling enough of the current poor range to keep themselves in business. And that money needs to be in the order of 50 million a month. Oh and lets not forget the existing debt that they need to payoff too.
So in case you didn't get that, they need BILLIONS. And the new product better be something amazing as well, not just a new body on an old Mini.
If the money for one does arrive I will be delighted and probably dance a jig. I don't want to see anyone lose their living. What you need to do if your company does depend on Mr Muellers business skills, is get your head out of the sand and start making plans for if Saab go to Valhalla. I know I would be.
Then take some Pepto-Bismol. And once you've recovered maybe come back and post something that isn't just blind faith in a product that's in serious trouble.
Fox- said:
Slade Alive said:
Again who gives a 5hit. We all know how good the 5 series platform is. So what. It doesn't apply to those wanting a 9-5. Saab is Saab. That's why they sell - to those wanting a Saab.
And this is why they are doomed - the amount of new car buyers out there who want a Saab, despite the fact its inferior to everything else, simply because it's a Saab is simply not enough to sustain the company.They needed to attract people who wanted a Saab because it's a credible 5 Series rival if they wanted to stand any chance of success.
They failed to do this and shall not be missed as a result.
Nice to see someone else on this thread lives in the real world and has some sense of perspective.
Just a reminder lest we forget..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-13...
"The directors of Phoenix Venture Holdings Ltd bought MG Rover, in Birmingham, for £10 in 2000 and paid themselves £40m in pay and pensions.
MG Rover collapsed in 2005 with debts of £1.3bn and with the loss of 6,000 jobs."
One of the ex-directors was heard to say today, "Sorry this line to Jersey is very poor. What's that? I can't be a director for 6 years? That's the least of my problems. My wallets too small for my fifty's and my diamond shoes are too tight,"
You have to admit the situation at Saab looks strikingly similar? And I'm guessing now Slade Alive is going to say that this doesn't have any resemblance to whats going on with Saab and to some respect you're right. Rover MG went into the red by £1.3 billion and weren't able to survive, Saab have only got to £400 million so far.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-13...
"The directors of Phoenix Venture Holdings Ltd bought MG Rover, in Birmingham, for £10 in 2000 and paid themselves £40m in pay and pensions.
MG Rover collapsed in 2005 with debts of £1.3bn and with the loss of 6,000 jobs."
One of the ex-directors was heard to say today, "Sorry this line to Jersey is very poor. What's that? I can't be a director for 6 years? That's the least of my problems. My wallets too small for my fifty's and my diamond shoes are too tight,"
You have to admit the situation at Saab looks strikingly similar? And I'm guessing now Slade Alive is going to say that this doesn't have any resemblance to whats going on with Saab and to some respect you're right. Rover MG went into the red by £1.3 billion and weren't able to survive, Saab have only got to £400 million so far.
And while here lets get to the bottom of the pre registration figures.
A quick search on AutoTrader for cars with less than 5000 miles and less than one year old nationally reveals the following figures (yes I have no life).
BMW: 1106
Audi: 1101
Mercedes: 998
Saab: 287
Then divide that by the numbers of cars they have actually registered this year to date
BMW: 38304
Audi: 42139
Mercedes: 28242
Saab: 2867
Means that very, very roughly;
BMW: 2.9% pre-registrations and demos
Audi: 2.6% pre-registrations and demos
Mercedes: 3.3% pre-registrations and demos
Saab: 10% pre-registrations and demos
Not very scientific I know but I have to say those figures are not as bad as I thought. However they don't include any demostrators that were taxed last month as they will not come off the fleet for another two months minimum or any cars that dealers don't want to advertise nationally yet.
Also remember that so far this year both Alfa and Jaguar, who if the three makes above are out of sight, would probably be Saabs main competitors as a slightly quirky cars, have sold double the amount that Saab have in the same time period with Lexus selling roughly the same.
A quick search on AutoTrader for cars with less than 5000 miles and less than one year old nationally reveals the following figures (yes I have no life).
BMW: 1106
Audi: 1101
Mercedes: 998
Saab: 287
Then divide that by the numbers of cars they have actually registered this year to date
BMW: 38304
Audi: 42139
Mercedes: 28242
Saab: 2867
Means that very, very roughly;
BMW: 2.9% pre-registrations and demos
Audi: 2.6% pre-registrations and demos
Mercedes: 3.3% pre-registrations and demos
Saab: 10% pre-registrations and demos
Not very scientific I know but I have to say those figures are not as bad as I thought. However they don't include any demostrators that were taxed last month as they will not come off the fleet for another two months minimum or any cars that dealers don't want to advertise nationally yet.
Also remember that so far this year both Alfa and Jaguar, who if the three makes above are out of sight, would probably be Saabs main competitors as a slightly quirky cars, have sold double the amount that Saab have in the same time period with Lexus selling roughly the same.
Slade Alive said:
Who's a clever boy eh. You won't look stupid in this topic then.
Pot. Kettle. Black.If I were you sladealive I'd stop taking that stuff for your stomach, that medication ain't doing you any good at all. If you would actually take the time to read a lot of peoples replies on this thread instead of sticking your fingers in your ears & jumping up down saying "La, la, la, I can't hear you, you nasty man! La, la, la, I can't hear you!" you would understand that most people on this thread including me, want Saab to survive.
However a lot of people on here, including me, obviously have a lot more experience than you not only in motor sales but in business in general and can see what's probably coming. I'll say it once more as you are cleary hard of reading.
Saab need billions. Mueller hasn't got billions, Neither has Antonov or the Chinese. No one cares about the product anymore because the general consenus in the press and from the general public is that it doesn't excite or offer enough of difference. They can't introduce any new products to stop the rot until they start selling the models they have. There is a very strong resemblance to what happened at Rover as a large amount of European public funds have been pumped in to a company which didn't have any competitive product and the directors of the company kept promising miracles and Chinese deals that made no difference. Some of the directors had, shall we say, iffy backgrounds. Those sales figures are not all sales to the general public, a lot of them are pre-registrations.They are in serious trouble. Again, unless someone comes across with billions, they will go bust which I do not want them to do
Seriously, a lot of other people on this thread have been backing me up but I hope to god you are not self-employed and in the motor trade because you quite cleary do not have any understanding of either.
Slade Alive said:
The Hypno-Toad said:
If I were you sladealive...........lots of unrelated rubbish........
But you're not, and again there you go guessing. This time about me. Why not just sit back and see what Saab come up with? Why is it important for you and people like you to go onto motoring forums and tell people 'I told you so'? There's no chance of an interesting conversation here about Saab potential survival. What they can do in the future. All there is is a bunch of know it all's flapping their chops about how Saab went wrong. What the guys in there now are trying to do to line their pockets whilst killing off Saab. If you and people making similar comment as you really knew anything your comments would be worthy of conversation. But they're not so instead we get to the point where insult and point scoring becomes the form instead. Have it. Clearly you're a champion of such matters.
I've done my homework on this subject, have you? Or are you just relying on shouting at the top of your voice that "Saab won't fail,".
Another snippet of news.
Production did not restart as Muller/Antonov suggested it would today. Antonovs cheque for 30 millions euros has now been paid in but Saab is now talking to its suppliers about a way to re-start parts deliveries.
Production will now re-start next Monday if all goes according to plan. Lets just hope that none of those pesky glitches in the invoicing computer reappear.
Production did not restart as Muller/Antonov suggested it would today. Antonovs cheque for 30 millions euros has now been paid in but Saab is now talking to its suppliers about a way to re-start parts deliveries.
Production will now re-start next Monday if all goes according to plan. Lets just hope that none of those pesky glitches in the invoicing computer reappear.
Oh dear. (again)
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ru...
Hopefully google translate works on a P & C. But if it hasn't quick precis.
While Mueller was in the States for the 9-4X launch, Hawtai officials visited the companies factories in Sweden and were "aghast" at what they found. They want immeadiate re-negotiations with Mueller before a get out clause in the deal expires tomorrow, as despite Muellers claims "it was only a framework deal".
And...
Great Wall Motor Company claim that Mueller back-tracked on a deal to sell Saab to them because he couldn't wait til they had a board meeting.
Youngman Motor Company claim that Mueller had signed a letter of intent to sell the company to them.
BAIC claim they have the right to sell all Saab's in China (which was a key part of the Hawtai deal) when they bought the rights to the old 9-3 and 9-5.
Mueller is currently on a plane to China. Although what he intends to do there having pissed off all of the countries car makers plus possibly broken Chinese business law with regard to the Youngman letter and the BIAC sales rights issue, I'm not quite sure. But its nice to see Victor (the reason we haven't paid the invoices is due to a computer glitch) Mueller is still keeping up his reputation for honesty. Once again, it looks like he may have only 24hrs to save the company.
Every day, in every way its getting more & more like MG Rover.......
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ru...
Hopefully google translate works on a P & C. But if it hasn't quick precis.
While Mueller was in the States for the 9-4X launch, Hawtai officials visited the companies factories in Sweden and were "aghast" at what they found. They want immeadiate re-negotiations with Mueller before a get out clause in the deal expires tomorrow, as despite Muellers claims "it was only a framework deal".
And...
Great Wall Motor Company claim that Mueller back-tracked on a deal to sell Saab to them because he couldn't wait til they had a board meeting.
Youngman Motor Company claim that Mueller had signed a letter of intent to sell the company to them.
BAIC claim they have the right to sell all Saab's in China (which was a key part of the Hawtai deal) when they bought the rights to the old 9-3 and 9-5.
Mueller is currently on a plane to China. Although what he intends to do there having pissed off all of the countries car makers plus possibly broken Chinese business law with regard to the Youngman letter and the BIAC sales rights issue, I'm not quite sure. But its nice to see Victor (the reason we haven't paid the invoices is due to a computer glitch) Mueller is still keeping up his reputation for honesty. Once again, it looks like he may have only 24hrs to save the company.
Every day, in every way its getting more & more like MG Rover.......
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Thursday 12th May 09:07
I think if Trollhatten has made its last car depends now on one crucial thing. If Antonov and Mueller had promised payments to the sub-contractors based on the Hawtai deal. Mueller has claimed the payments to them had started based on the small amount Antonov had pumped in.
If not & they had taken him at his word that a deal with Hawtai was a done deal and re-started production or deliveries on Saab parts based getting paid when the cheque cleared, I would imagine that some very serious legal discussions have started this morning.
If not & they had taken him at his word that a deal with Hawtai was a done deal and re-started production or deliveries on Saab parts based getting paid when the cheque cleared, I would imagine that some very serious legal discussions have started this morning.
Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Thursday 12th May 09:58
confused_buyer said:
The Saga goes on....
They have apparently now done some deal with Pang Da Automobile Trade Co who ever the hell they are to buy up a batch of Saab cars and invest €65m. Saab are implying €30m for the cars is being paid immediately.
As ever, it is just an agreement, and until the money actually changes hands I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
Having just read the press release it would appear that have bascially sold 1000 cars to the Chinese equilvent of Sytner. The company has no website that is accessable outside of China. Again it raise a few points as this would appear just another desperate attempt to grab the cash to get the production line re-started.They have apparently now done some deal with Pang Da Automobile Trade Co who ever the hell they are to buy up a batch of Saab cars and invest €65m. Saab are implying €30m for the cars is being paid immediately.
As ever, it is just an agreement, and until the money actually changes hands I'd take it with a pinch of salt.
1.) First of all its an MoU, its not a done deal.
2.) Its raises the question again of who owns the rights to distribute Saabs in China as BAIC seem to think they have the them & that was one of the reasons why the Hawtai deal failed.
3.) If they build the Chinese cars first and put all the European/American cars on the back burner that will p
s off all of those customers who have already been delayed by two months. Plus it will be a fantastic way to ps off the dealer network.4.) If they build the European cars first they will p
s off the Chinese who they have just done a deal with.Either way someone will be pissed off and it still is only enough money for a few weeks of production.
Explains the situation much better than I ever could.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/05/saab%E2%8...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/05/why-china...
Just desperate.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/05/saab%E2%8...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/05/why-china...
Just desperate.
The EIB have just issued a statement which basically says "We are not a liquidity provider, we are lending Saab money for enviromental research. Any changes in ownership have to be properly researched and investigated. Of course we want to see Saab survive,"
It would appear that this deal, like the Hawtai and the Antonov bidding ones, are not only due to approval from the EIB & the Swedish government but also from GM as the new cars have a lot of the IP rights within them. Some Swedish newspapers are reporting that with the money from Antonov and Da Nang (is that what they are called?) Saab are still going to be 20 million euros away from settling their debts.
It would appear that this deal, like the Hawtai and the Antonov bidding ones, are not only due to approval from the EIB & the Swedish government but also from GM as the new cars have a lot of the IP rights within them. Some Swedish newspapers are reporting that with the money from Antonov and Da Nang (is that what they are called?) Saab are still going to be 20 million euros away from settling their debts.
Slade Alive said:
Toad why do your reports make every turn taken appear as if some sort of dodgy deal is about to be done?
Because I don't believe for a minute that Victor Mueller is the saviour of Saab. I also don't believe that he is doing all of this out of the kindness of his own heart because he once owned a T16S. Unless he stood up in front of all the staff at Saab proved that he hadn't paid himself anything since he took ownership of the company, that he wasn't moving money across to protect Spyker, that he isn't dealing with anyone who is slighty dodgy and that he has secured BILLIONS to protect Saabs future, I won't believe that he is basically so far out of his depth he can't even see the bottom of the pool. If I was being charitable I might say that he totally mis-understood the depth of Saabs problems and that GM basically didn't tell him about how bad it really was.
If I wasn't being charitable I would say that he has now ruined any chance Saab had of being competitive in the marketplace and will now help make a lot of people including some my friends unemployed.
If I was being very, very uncharitable I would say that he will shortly be applying for residencey in the same little island as Simon Gillet (remember him?) and John Tower, while everyone else who works for the company can't pay their mortgage.
I will say this one more time sladealive because you quite clearly do not get it.
There is no money at the moment. No deal has yet been done. The public (even in Sweden) no longer care about the brand. The product range, according to most independant sources, simply is not good enough. They need BILLIONS.
If one of the other major car companies come in to buy Saab I will be the first one on here rejoicing. But watching a Dutch playboy flying round the world, whoring the brand to anyone who has a few dollars is pathetic.
Funny, I thought you said you weren't coming back to this thread. My mistake.
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