RE: McLaren P1 - inside story
Discussion
Not for me thanks. The least desirable of the 3 "mega cars".
The Porsche looks the best (i think it looks fantastic actually), has an open top, and no doubt a very nice n/a v8.
The Ferrari has a massive v12. Job done! Might not look wonderful, but it's certainly a confident design, which I like.
The McLaren just looks odd and has a version of an engine that's hardly set the world alight in the mp412c. I'm just not getting it... Sure it'll be hugely quick, but as ever I'm not sure that's the entire point of these kind of cars...
The Porsche looks the best (i think it looks fantastic actually), has an open top, and no doubt a very nice n/a v8.
The Ferrari has a massive v12. Job done! Might not look wonderful, but it's certainly a confident design, which I like.
The McLaren just looks odd and has a version of an engine that's hardly set the world alight in the mp412c. I'm just not getting it... Sure it'll be hugely quick, but as ever I'm not sure that's the entire point of these kind of cars...
PunterCam said:
Not for me thanks. The least desirable of the 3 "mega cars".
The Porsche looks the best (i think it looks fantastic actually), has an open top, and no doubt a very nice n/a v8.
The Ferrari has a massive v12. Job done! Might not look wonderful, but it's certainly a confident design, which I like.
The McLaren just looks odd and has a version of an engine that's hardly set the world alight in the mp412c. I'm just not getting it... Sure it'll be hugely quick, but as ever I'm not sure that's the entire point of these kind of cars...
I disagree, for me the one i would buy is the McLaren! Dunno why, just really like it.The Porsche looks the best (i think it looks fantastic actually), has an open top, and no doubt a very nice n/a v8.
The Ferrari has a massive v12. Job done! Might not look wonderful, but it's certainly a confident design, which I like.
The McLaren just looks odd and has a version of an engine that's hardly set the world alight in the mp412c. I'm just not getting it... Sure it'll be hugely quick, but as ever I'm not sure that's the entire point of these kind of cars...
kith said:
As for the V12 being the past? Well, so are mechanical watch movements, but true watch enthusiasts don't buy quartz.
That's a very bad example; watch movements are not held to legislation regarding emissions so it's not really a comparable argument. Remember, McLaren is not a mass-market car manufacturer so unlike VAG, Toyota et al they have to keep an eye on these things more than Ferrari or Porsche would need to. If for them a V12 is a thing of the past blame the EU quangos not McLaren.Bravo McLaren.
The hard thing to swallow here is that they are right. The P1 simply is more advanced than the La Ferrari - I can totally understand how they were initially concerned about the LA Ferrari's power until they actually saw the car and the aero it uses.
I do not doubt for a moment that the La Ferrari would get beaten by the P1 on the track. Maybe even by quite a margin.
As for desirability, well that is purely subjective. They only plan to make 300 or so P1's, much less than Ferrari plan for their car.
I think it is easy to say that the Ferrari and P1 compete, but other than the fact they are both expensive HyperCars , I see little in common between them. A P1 owner may well rule out the La Ferrari, and vice versa, because they just don't "get" the other car.
McLaren spokesman / engineer guy sounds a bit like Dr Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang theory. "Don't say that about the Ferrari ? Why? It is the truth - our car is faster, I don't understand the point you are trying to make"....
It comes across as arrogance but I think it's really a simple statement of facts.
Ferrari will talk to the issues of "passion" and "character" and "bella machina", " Forza Ferrari, bella bella !"
Meanwhile the P1 will just do the business.
You don't have to love the P1. On a "passion and soul" level" you'd pick the Ferrari if that really matters to you.
Only 300 or so people need to take the view that they prefer the Mclaren ethos. They won't be hard to find. If I had the money I would be in line and choose the P1 every time over any Ferrari.
But that's just me. YMMV..
The hard thing to swallow here is that they are right. The P1 simply is more advanced than the La Ferrari - I can totally understand how they were initially concerned about the LA Ferrari's power until they actually saw the car and the aero it uses.
I do not doubt for a moment that the La Ferrari would get beaten by the P1 on the track. Maybe even by quite a margin.
As for desirability, well that is purely subjective. They only plan to make 300 or so P1's, much less than Ferrari plan for their car.
I think it is easy to say that the Ferrari and P1 compete, but other than the fact they are both expensive HyperCars , I see little in common between them. A P1 owner may well rule out the La Ferrari, and vice versa, because they just don't "get" the other car.
McLaren spokesman / engineer guy sounds a bit like Dr Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang theory. "Don't say that about the Ferrari ? Why? It is the truth - our car is faster, I don't understand the point you are trying to make"....
It comes across as arrogance but I think it's really a simple statement of facts.
Ferrari will talk to the issues of "passion" and "character" and "bella machina", " Forza Ferrari, bella bella !"
Meanwhile the P1 will just do the business.
You don't have to love the P1. On a "passion and soul" level" you'd pick the Ferrari if that really matters to you.
Only 300 or so people need to take the view that they prefer the Mclaren ethos. They won't be hard to find. If I had the money I would be in line and choose the P1 every time over any Ferrari.
But that's just me. YMMV..
Note people saying 'how can you say V12 engines are the past - its having disregard to your history' - ahem, I am confused. How does it being part of the history negate it being in the past.
OK, you like a V12, I do too, it's my favourite type of engine. HOWEVER, I am will to admit that as wonderful as they are, they are becoming out-dated as far as the worlds requirements are concerned. I know everyone is raging against the dying of the light, but small capacity forced induction is the future. No ifs, no buts.
The car needs to be the cutting edge of technology. I understand why McLaren are doing it, and being as they are not a benefit for making cars for people who will never buy them ('where's the V12 stampy feet').
I wouldn't have one personally, buit I wouldn't have it's rivals either. I would spend my £800k on something older and less high tech (several of them). But this is a hyper-car - the very top end. It must be the most high tech thing there is. It can't use 20 year old ideas.
OK, you like a V12, I do too, it's my favourite type of engine. HOWEVER, I am will to admit that as wonderful as they are, they are becoming out-dated as far as the worlds requirements are concerned. I know everyone is raging against the dying of the light, but small capacity forced induction is the future. No ifs, no buts.
The car needs to be the cutting edge of technology. I understand why McLaren are doing it, and being as they are not a benefit for making cars for people who will never buy them ('where's the V12 stampy feet').
I wouldn't have one personally, buit I wouldn't have it's rivals either. I would spend my £800k on something older and less high tech (several of them). But this is a hyper-car - the very top end. It must be the most high tech thing there is. It can't use 20 year old ideas.
Davey S2 said:
PunterCam said:
Sure it'll be hugely quick, but as ever I'm not sure that's the entire point of these kind of cars...
That's entirely the point of these cars. It's just Top Trumps as most will only do a few hundred miles a year in the hands of their owners. 
t anyway, the manufacturer's can say what they want about the P1, LaF and 918. until some very rich people allow some racing car drivers to do just that we'll never know which is the best car. i don't mean a 1 mile drag race or lap times of the ring. i mean proper balls out racing on a track. 2 or 3 cars from each manufacturer on the grid. to make it a bit more interesting they could invite some pagani and veyron owners too. they're must be some loaded punters out there who could make this happen.
Vocal Minority said:
Note people saying 'how can you say V12 engines are the past - its having disregard to your history' - ahem, I am confused. How does it being part of the history negate it being in the past.
OK, you like a V12, I do too, it's my favourite type of engine. HOWEVER, I am will to admit that as wonderful as they are, they are becoming out-dated as far as the worlds requirements are concerned. I know everyone is raging against the dying of the light, but small capacity forced induction is the future. No ifs, no buts.
The car needs to be the cutting edge of technology. I understand why McLaren are doing it, and being as they are not a benefit for making cars for people who will never buy them ('where's the V12 stampy feet').
I wouldn't have one personally, buit I wouldn't have it's rivals either. I would spend my £800k on something older and less high tech (several of them). But this is a hyper-car - the very top end. It must be the most high tech thing there is. It can't use 20 year old ideas.
Yes, ^this. V12 is probably still the perfect engine for something like a lambo. mclaren are trying to build something different, and a V12 probably isn't the optimum package. Seems their slightly smug way of justifying it has ruffled a few feathers though.OK, you like a V12, I do too, it's my favourite type of engine. HOWEVER, I am will to admit that as wonderful as they are, they are becoming out-dated as far as the worlds requirements are concerned. I know everyone is raging against the dying of the light, but small capacity forced induction is the future. No ifs, no buts.
The car needs to be the cutting edge of technology. I understand why McLaren are doing it, and being as they are not a benefit for making cars for people who will never buy them ('where's the V12 stampy feet').
I wouldn't have one personally, buit I wouldn't have it's rivals either. I would spend my £800k on something older and less high tech (several of them). But this is a hyper-car - the very top end. It must be the most high tech thing there is. It can't use 20 year old ideas.
But in a way it's a good thing they're so differently setup, makes them all unique cars. As for which is faster, that will probably depend a lot on the driver and the type of track. Was the same with the Enzo and the Porsche GT years back, Porsche was quicker on some tracks and Ferrari on others. But that's all just trivial really, all 3 cars are rediculously quick and hardly useable on the street. Actually thinking about it I actually think I'd prefer to have a Porsche GT over any of those new hyper cars (or a Zonda 
)
)Since when was the V12 that significant in cutting edge or technologically groundbreaking cars anyway?
Looking at the fastest production cars you can buy- a reasonable indicator of groundbreaking technology - both historic and current top ten there's not that many V12's. Far more V8's in fact...
Lovely engine, would be a dream to own one, but everything in it's place.
Looking at the fastest production cars you can buy- a reasonable indicator of groundbreaking technology - both historic and current top ten there's not that many V12's. Far more V8's in fact...
Lovely engine, would be a dream to own one, but everything in it's place.
astra la vista said:
Davey S2 said:
PunterCam said:
Sure it'll be hugely quick, but as ever I'm not sure that's the entire point of these kind of cars...
That's entirely the point of these cars. It's just Top Trumps as most will only do a few hundred miles a year in the hands of their owners. t anyway, the manufacturer's can say what they want about the P1, LaF and 918. until some very rich people allow some racing car drivers to do just that we'll never know which is the best car. i don't mean a 1 mile drag race or lap times of the ring. i mean proper balls out racing on a track. 2 or 3 cars from each manufacturer on the grid. to make it a bit more interesting they could invite some pagani and veyron owners too. they're must be some loaded punters out there who could make this happen.
Other than pub bragging rights its still pretty meaningless.
mrclav said:
kith said:
As for the V12 being the past? Well, so are mechanical watch movements, but true watch enthusiasts don't buy quartz.
That's a very bad example; watch movements are not held to legislation regarding emissions so it's not really a comparable argument. Remember, McLaren is not a mass-market car manufacturer so unlike VAG, Toyota et al they have to keep an eye on these things more than Ferrari or Porsche would need to. If for them a V12 is a thing of the past blame the EU quangos not McLaren.No-one doubts that a V12/mechanical movement can still perform at a high level, but if you want to build the highest-performance car/watch then the absence of a V12/mechanical movement may not be an impediment, and may in fact give a significant advantage.
V12s look great, sound lovely, have excellent characteristics (smoothness, power delivery etc.) and so on, but the fact remains they are generally large, heavy and thirsty compared to other layouts and that today it is no longer necessary to have a thumping great cylinder count and swept capacity to offer ultimate performance.
McLaren, in their own slightly clumsy way, are only recognising this, perhaps as stubborn justification/denial of the fact they seemed bound to use a derivative of the 12C's V8?
loudlashadjuster said:
mrclav said:
kith said:
As for the V12 being the past? Well, so are mechanical watch movements, but true watch enthusiasts don't buy quartz.
That's a very bad example; watch movements are not held to legislation regarding emissions so it's not really a comparable argument. Remember, McLaren is not a mass-market car manufacturer so unlike VAG, Toyota et al they have to keep an eye on these things more than Ferrari or Porsche would need to. If for them a V12 is a thing of the past blame the EU quangos not McLaren.No-one doubts that a V12/mechanical movement can still perform at a high level, but if you want to build the highest-performance car/watch then the absence of a V12/mechanical movement may not be an impediment, and may in fact give a significant advantage.
V12s look great, sound lovely, have excellent characteristics (smoothness, power delivery etc.) and so on, but the fact remains they are generally large, heavy and thirsty compared to other layouts and that today it is no longer necessary to have a thumping great cylinder count and swept capacity to offer ultimate performance.
McLaren, in their own slightly clumsy way, are only recognising this, perhaps as stubborn justification/denial of the fact they seemed bound to use a derivative of the 12C's V8?
IMHO it's the product of faulty thinking, McLaren's 'both/and' philosophy produces bad compromises like 'I was worried about the LaFerrai but then I found out it didn't have an electric only function'.. The more singlemindeness of the Ferrari design process, and the McLaren F1's result in less compromise IMHO.
Are they practicing on the Top Gear track so they can back up claims to having the best hypercar ever by lap time?
They're a bit like someone coming along in a lab coat and saying "I have done some studies and I now announce to you the funniest joke ever calculated", then follows something amusing. Then comes Ferrari with someone naturally funny in a Michael McIntyre stylee that reduces everyone to tears of laughter. Then comes Lamnbo with a filthy and offensive joke that some people don't like and some people remember for all time.
I can appreciate it's a fantastic car, and I don't argue with it... but I'm not into the McLaren approach.
They're a bit like someone coming along in a lab coat and saying "I have done some studies and I now announce to you the funniest joke ever calculated", then follows something amusing. Then comes Ferrari with someone naturally funny in a Michael McIntyre stylee that reduces everyone to tears of laughter. Then comes Lamnbo with a filthy and offensive joke that some people don't like and some people remember for all time.
I can appreciate it's a fantastic car, and I don't argue with it... but I'm not into the McLaren approach.
Kermit79 said:
I do worry for Mclaren in some respects. They do know how to shoot their mouths off, there is confidence, and then there is CONFIDENCE bordering on arrogance, in my opinion. They have not driven the Ferrari, but have effectively discounted it based upon some snippets of information they can SEE re aero etc.
I seem to remember a certain Ron Dennis discounting the Ferrari 458 against the 'MP4-12/4:33(99)>400c12' or whatever it is called now.. on technology grounds, and that wasn't a walk over. I would have thought that they would learn from this previous error.
I am not belittling the P1 in anyway, I'm sure it will be a fantastic car and am ecstatic that the UK is creating such a wonderful piece of kit, it is more about the cocksure nature of their comments based on nothing tangible re the competition. Talk about setting yourselves up for a potential fall! I do hope they are right..........
It's quite obvious that you, and many other people in this thread, do not like McLaren for whatever reason.I seem to remember a certain Ron Dennis discounting the Ferrari 458 against the 'MP4-12/4:33(99)>400c12' or whatever it is called now.. on technology grounds, and that wasn't a walk over. I would have thought that they would learn from this previous error.
I am not belittling the P1 in anyway, I'm sure it will be a fantastic car and am ecstatic that the UK is creating such a wonderful piece of kit, it is more about the cocksure nature of their comments based on nothing tangible re the competition. Talk about setting yourselves up for a potential fall! I do hope they are right..........
But comparing the MP4-12C to the 458, I recommend you do a little research on this topic, because in the real world with cars delivered to customers the McLaren is much quicker.
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