The car security ideas thread
Discussion
numtumfutunch said:
Simple
Fit a spark plug into the fuel tank and then:
Low tech
switch one of the real HT leads from under the bonnet to the fuel tank spark plug when you exit the car
High tech
enable the switch remotely by GPS or some other witch craft and then choose when to press the button
High tech approach possibly enhanced by having some kind of CCTV in the car live linked to youtube
Probably..................
Probably not. You can extinguish a cigarette in petrol. Youve been watching too much of The Professionals...Fit a spark plug into the fuel tank and then:
Low tech
switch one of the real HT leads from under the bonnet to the fuel tank spark plug when you exit the car
High tech
enable the switch remotely by GPS or some other witch craft and then choose when to press the button
High tech approach possibly enhanced by having some kind of CCTV in the car live linked to youtube
Probably..................
?CoolHands said:
that's quite a good idea - like those little usb-type pen things IT network people use? Like bank things. They keep clicking round and there's some way of using the right code at a certain point in time, I think. IT people will know what I'm on about.
I think what u are referring to is something like the RSA ID dongles. If perhaps an encryption system could be implemented with the car's obd2 port, where the car gave a challenge- e.g. code xxxxx, and there was a system or number you could call (linked to manufacurer) to get the relevant response to give to the car's system- code yyyyy to ensure your valididity.
The use of a date&time plus the vehicle vin or ecu s/n would give you a sequence of characters that would generate a very unique challenge and response system.
You could also implement a one time payment or subscription service so only registered garages could use the challenge response system authentication.
Get a microchip implanted under the skin of one of your hands (similar to a pet microchip) and set up your car such that it will only start if the microchip is near the dash. Receiver could be recoded by you if you wish to sell the car on. Or, more advanced, have a retinal, or fingerprint, scanner fitted. Not intrusive and the technology exists. Of course, either of these may lead to a kidnapping, but would most villains be willing to take that extra step?
CR6ZZ said:
Get a microchip implanted under the skin of one of your hands (similar to a pet microchip) and set up your car such that it will only start if the microchip is near the dash. Receiver could be recoded by you if you wish to sell the car on. Or, more advanced, have a retinal, or fingerprint, scanner fitted. Not intrusive and the technology exists. Of course, either of these may lead to a kidnapping, but would most villains be willing to take that extra step?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4396831.stmsimple, get rid of keyless ignition, it is not as if up until recently everyone dreaded facing the daily ordeal of having to take a physical key, out of our pocket, force it into a key hole and turn it 3 clicks just to get the vehicle to start. Now the manufacturers are pushing this keyless gimmick onto everyone that solves a problem that didn't exist, and has created a massive new one.
starting in the mid 90s we had the gold standard of vehicle security
it was basicly thought to be impossible to the casual thief to steal a car made in the late 90s without the keys, to steal a car you needed to over come 2-3 thing separately, the alarm, the steering lock and the immobilizer. Since keyless entry things have gone backwards, they have recombined everything into as single device that can electronically disable the steering lock, the immobiliser, the alarm system and start the car, giving thieves a single point of attack. The worst thing about electronic security is that it doesn't matter how difficult it is to overcome, once the work has been done, it usually can be easily repeatable and programs can be written to help do it, so it can become something which can be done by anyone, easily, quickly and often silently.
If you work on the premiss that all reprogrammable electronic systems can be hacked with physical access, ( which they can ) then you cannot prevent unauthorised use of a vehicle with just reprogrammable computer systems to prevent it.
It's never going to be realisticly possible to prevent physical access to the electronics of a car, you can always smash a window to get in.
Unfortunately now car thieves have a taste of how easy it can be to overcome the electronic security they will no longer be so put off by it, which means even if manufacturers bring back some mechanical only security such as steering locks operated by key only, they will likely need to be beefed up to stop all the old techniques just coming back.
starting in the mid 90s we had the gold standard of vehicle security
it was basicly thought to be impossible to the casual thief to steal a car made in the late 90s without the keys, to steal a car you needed to over come 2-3 thing separately, the alarm, the steering lock and the immobilizer. Since keyless entry things have gone backwards, they have recombined everything into as single device that can electronically disable the steering lock, the immobiliser, the alarm system and start the car, giving thieves a single point of attack. The worst thing about electronic security is that it doesn't matter how difficult it is to overcome, once the work has been done, it usually can be easily repeatable and programs can be written to help do it, so it can become something which can be done by anyone, easily, quickly and often silently.
If you work on the premiss that all reprogrammable electronic systems can be hacked with physical access, ( which they can ) then you cannot prevent unauthorised use of a vehicle with just reprogrammable computer systems to prevent it.
It's never going to be realisticly possible to prevent physical access to the electronics of a car, you can always smash a window to get in.
Unfortunately now car thieves have a taste of how easy it can be to overcome the electronic security they will no longer be so put off by it, which means even if manufacturers bring back some mechanical only security such as steering locks operated by key only, they will likely need to be beefed up to stop all the old techniques just coming back.
V8RX7 said:
Clifford Blackjax or similar.
Allow owners with trackers to remotely immobilize the car rather than just pathetically watching it disappear
This, but can it then deadlock the car and set its alarm off (and perhaps spray the thief in the face with pepper spray at regular intervals).Allow owners with trackers to remotely immobilize the car rather than just pathetically watching it disappear
bennyboysvuk said:
This, but can it then deadlock the car and set its alarm off (and perhaps spray the thief in the face with pepper spray at regular intervals).
Just what you want, an angry car thief probably with tools trapped in your car, followed by pepper spray getting all over your interior Lawbags said:
Exactly that.
The punishment for crimes here is terrible. A slap on the wrist won't deter anyone!
Out here in Qatar a guy who stole my phone from my car got 3 years in a Qatar Jail and deportation after he serves his sentence. THAT my friends is the biggest deterrant you could have! They don't do much right here but they do know how to punish people!*The punishment for crimes here is terrible. A slap on the wrist won't deter anyone!
- (provided you are not rich or important)
TobyLaRohne said:
Out here in Qatar a guy who stole my phone from my car got 3 years in a Qatar Jail and deportation after he serves his sentence. THAT my friends is the biggest deterrant you could have! They don't do much right here but they do know how to punish people!*
how many stars do Qatar jails have?- (provided you are not rich or important)
I have suggested making the tracking system an integral part of the car's electronics (e.g. the in-built satnav), so it's expensive to replace and can only be done by an authorized dealer.
You could also use one of the bits of software that is used for tracking stolen phones/laptops, so that if the car is stolen it keeps phoning home with location details.
I also thought of a short-range radio transmitter in the car and a base station in the house. If the car moves beyond signal range, then the car is immobilized (e.g. by shutting down the fuel system and so on) and the base station triggers an alarm.
You could also use one of the bits of software that is used for tracking stolen phones/laptops, so that if the car is stolen it keeps phoning home with location details.
I also thought of a short-range radio transmitter in the car and a base station in the house. If the car moves beyond signal range, then the car is immobilized (e.g. by shutting down the fuel system and so on) and the base station triggers an alarm.
ging84 said:
TobyLaRohne said:
Out here in Qatar a guy who stole my phone from my car got 3 years in a Qatar Jail and deportation after he serves his sentence. THAT my friends is the biggest deterrant you could have! They don't do much right here but they do know how to punish people!*
how many stars do Qatar jails have?- (provided you are not rich or important)
I believe only 4.I'll give this one a go...
Obviously the idea needs to be not just making it difficult for scrotes to drive away, but deterring them from even trying.
Maybe fingerprint recognition is the way forward. It's been around for years (in fact I think the Lexus LS or Audi A8 might have had it at one point) and now that Apple have done it, it will probably go mainstream.
You would need a fingerprint to get into the car (sensor on door handle), and also to start the car (the button to start the car is also a sensor), and also to lock the car (sensor on door handle). No matching print = operation denied.
The car would have to let you register multiple prints so that family etc. can drive. Updating the list of allowable fingerprints would require a password (2 factor authentication) which you would store at home (like the radio code).
There would need to be a "valet mode" so that e.g. a servicing garage can drive it. But the garage wouldn't be able to code any more prints since they don't have the password.
When you sell the car, you would put it into "valet mode" and give the new owner the password. They can then delete the old prints and store their own. That would be the equivalent of handing the keys over. There is no danger of the car ending up locked and inaccessible, because locking it requires a fingerprint.
The interesting bit is that there would be no physical key or transponder, so the EU rules on allowing indies to program additional keys through the OBD2 port or whatever, would be completely irrelevant. And because there is no transponder, there is no radio code to intercept. Nobody could allow entry except you.
And because there is no key, there is nothing for anyone to steal. They could try and get the password, but it's useless without a matching fingerprint.
There are obvious disadvantages. If you are away, only registered users can move the car. You cannot open the car while wearing gloves. If you lose your finger while the car is locked, you obviously have a problem. Maybe you code 2 fingers just in case
You cannot remote-unlock the car from a distance since there is no fob. You have to put your hand on the door.
If someone is determined enough they will always find a way. They can load the car on a flatbed and drive off. They can force you to open the car at knifepoint. But this way, you eliminate the scenario where someone either hacks the immobilisation or breaks in and codes a new key, which these days seem to be the most common.
Thoughts...
Obviously the idea needs to be not just making it difficult for scrotes to drive away, but deterring them from even trying.
Maybe fingerprint recognition is the way forward. It's been around for years (in fact I think the Lexus LS or Audi A8 might have had it at one point) and now that Apple have done it, it will probably go mainstream.
You would need a fingerprint to get into the car (sensor on door handle), and also to start the car (the button to start the car is also a sensor), and also to lock the car (sensor on door handle). No matching print = operation denied.
The car would have to let you register multiple prints so that family etc. can drive. Updating the list of allowable fingerprints would require a password (2 factor authentication) which you would store at home (like the radio code).
There would need to be a "valet mode" so that e.g. a servicing garage can drive it. But the garage wouldn't be able to code any more prints since they don't have the password.
When you sell the car, you would put it into "valet mode" and give the new owner the password. They can then delete the old prints and store their own. That would be the equivalent of handing the keys over. There is no danger of the car ending up locked and inaccessible, because locking it requires a fingerprint.
The interesting bit is that there would be no physical key or transponder, so the EU rules on allowing indies to program additional keys through the OBD2 port or whatever, would be completely irrelevant. And because there is no transponder, there is no radio code to intercept. Nobody could allow entry except you.
And because there is no key, there is nothing for anyone to steal. They could try and get the password, but it's useless without a matching fingerprint.
There are obvious disadvantages. If you are away, only registered users can move the car. You cannot open the car while wearing gloves. If you lose your finger while the car is locked, you obviously have a problem. Maybe you code 2 fingers just in case
You cannot remote-unlock the car from a distance since there is no fob. You have to put your hand on the door.If someone is determined enough they will always find a way. They can load the car on a flatbed and drive off. They can force you to open the car at knifepoint. But this way, you eliminate the scenario where someone either hacks the immobilisation or breaks in and codes a new key, which these days seem to be the most common.
Thoughts...
As said by others the security needs to be physical not electronic, put the comunications port in the engine bay or boot or in a locked compartment in the glovebox, anywhere that it is behind a physical key lock, or provide a Mechanic's key be it a physical key a swipe card or a dongle with the vehicle that allows access to the software only when the specific "key" is inserted into the port then the computer connected.
Monty Python said:
I also thought of a short-range radio transmitter in the car and a base station in the house. If the car moves beyond signal range, then the car is immobilized (e.g. by shutting down the fuel system and so on) and the base station triggers an alarm.
UK law prevents you immobilizing a moving vehicle.The worry being that the steering / brakes weight up and they may crash.
I have cars that are set up to do this as do many in S Africa - it allows the thief to drive away but stops the car within a mile.
I have also suffered power and brake failures whilst driving and never crashed.
UK law is far too soft - we've had these debates before - the majority want the death penalty (albeit not for car crime) but MPs think they know better.
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