Bikers - Undertaking, do we have any sympathy ?
Discussion
I observed a biker getting unreasonably shouty with a girl in a Ka the other evening. From my vantage point I could see it coming and I wonder why the biker couldn't, especially as she was the third car to not see him in about 500 yards of 10 mph traffic.
But then, if you will ride a black sports bike wearing black leathers and a black crash hat, yet fail to switch on your headlight despite having a very bright and low sun setting behind you, well you're not exactly making it easy for other road users to see you.
However, he was filtering at an appropriate speed and the streetlights weren't on, so technically he was breaking no laws. Still a numpty though.
But then, if you will ride a black sports bike wearing black leathers and a black crash hat, yet fail to switch on your headlight despite having a very bright and low sun setting behind you, well you're not exactly making it easy for other road users to see you.
However, he was filtering at an appropriate speed and the streetlights weren't on, so technically he was breaking no laws. Still a numpty though.
I was driving along the M3 up to London last week, sitting at around 75mph-85mph in the fast lane all the way there. I couldn't believe it when a total of 3 motorbikes undertook me (and all the cars in front and behind, as it was a steady stream of traffic in each lane).
Squeezing through between guy in lane 2 (70mph-75mph) and me in lane 3 (75mph-80mph). I am always amazed at how bad motorbike drivers are in general, not quite as bad as push bikes, but still absolutely awful.
Squeezing through between guy in lane 2 (70mph-75mph) and me in lane 3 (75mph-80mph). I am always amazed at how bad motorbike drivers are in general, not quite as bad as push bikes, but still absolutely awful.
sealtt said:
I was driving along the M3 up to London last week, sitting at around 75mph-85mph in the fast lane all the way there. I couldn't believe it when a total of 3 motorbikes undertook me (and all the cars in front and behind, as it was a steady stream of traffic in each lane).
Squeezing through between guy in lane 2 (70mph-75mph) and me in lane 3 (75mph-80mph). I am always amazed at how bad motorbike drivers are in general, not quite as bad as push bikes, but still absolutely awful.
So you were speeding then? But I guess as you were in the fast lane, it's OK.Squeezing through between guy in lane 2 (70mph-75mph) and me in lane 3 (75mph-80mph). I am always amazed at how bad motorbike drivers are in general, not quite as bad as push bikes, but still absolutely awful.
I remember the days when a light approaching from behind during daylight hours meant a biker or a Volvo were coming through; now, every new car on the planet has a disco on the front so a quick glance in the mirror before you pull out and a bike is easy to miss amongst something which looks like the closing scene from Close Encounters.
Pit Pony said:
I'd suggest filtering should be avoided unless the other vehicles are stationary, and only then at a walking pace.
As I biker who does filter (I use the M62 after all) I tend to agree with the above, although walking pace might be pushing it a bit.Once the traffic is moving, even if it's 20mph I don't bother, and if I am filtering I'm super cautious and my speed is judged by "will I get hurt if....". I see some frightening speeds reached by filtering riders (50mph + through stationary traffic) - I don't know what's going on in their heads to want to take such risks to get to work on time.
croyde said:
Someone mentioned the biker in black on a black machine with its lights off.
Must of been a pretty old bike as the lights come on with the ignition. It's been law for a long time.
Just saying.
I have an '02 bike without this important safety feature. Yes, it's old, but not super old.Must of been a pretty old bike as the lights come on with the ignition. It's been law for a long time.
Just saying.
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
It's certainly a risk, but it's just so easy to nip round vehicles on the 'wrong' side.
You're on a fast, narrow and highly manoeuvrable machine...everything that a car isn't. It's easy and very good fun...as long as things don't go wrong.
If a vehicle changed lanes and a bike was undertaking at speed...it really is the bikers fault if they hit the vehicle, because the other driver wouldn't have been expecting a bike to be there.
The old `mirror signal manoeuvre' rule `should' be used all the time, but how many drivers bother to signal, even when there is another road user directly behind them? The question would be did they even look in the mirror before pulling out?You're on a fast, narrow and highly manoeuvrable machine...everything that a car isn't. It's easy and very good fun...as long as things don't go wrong.
If a vehicle changed lanes and a bike was undertaking at speed...it really is the bikers fault if they hit the vehicle, because the other driver wouldn't have been expecting a bike to be there.
I very very nearly squashed a biker yesterday, in the inside lane of the M40, doing 65mph-ish, small van in the middle lane behind me, was *just* about to indicate and move out to the middle lane when a rider undertook the van and overtook me before moving to the outside lane and with some very dodgy high-speed "filtering" was gone.
I keep a good watch for bikes and normally spot them a long way back but because of his approach (I think he went from the outside lane, "hid" behind the van then undertook it which is the first time I saw him) I didn't see him until he was right on me, I'm not sure he realised just how close he was to being taken out, about a second later and he'd have been into the side of my car as I changed lanes.
I keep a good watch for bikes and normally spot them a long way back but because of his approach (I think he went from the outside lane, "hid" behind the van then undertook it which is the first time I saw him) I didn't see him until he was right on me, I'm not sure he realised just how close he was to being taken out, about a second later and he'd have been into the side of my car as I changed lanes.
Fastdruid said:
I'm not sure he realised just how close he was to being taken out, about a second later and he'd have been into the side of my car as I changed lanes.
He probably didn't realize. As it probably wasn't as close as you think. Obviously I was not there, but is very rare as a biker that you get these "oh st" moments, 65mph on a bike feels like 15 in a car. If is was not an "oh st" moment from him (and I suspect if it was - you would have seen a swerve from him, and/or a reaction at least) he probably went about his day, without even noticing it as was not as close as you thought it was.
No idea if you ride a bike or not, but after a while of riding, especially in traffic, your perception of what is going on around you becomes owl like. You know everything going on around you at all times. Is a very strange sensation, and difficult to explain to non-bike riders. You cannot appreciate how quick and nimble a bike can be, and what looks like a tight gap to a car driver, has miles of room for a biker.
It works the other way as well, when in the car, and you forget that you are not so nimble and quick, and you find yourself on the wrong side of the road having done an overtake, and realising you cannot get back to your own side of the traffic. That is embarrassing .
To the OP - I guess you have never ridden through London where Bikes share bus lanes, and people need to cut across the bus lanes to take exits? You have to be just as alert there to people cutting across you, as you do not a motorway when filtering. Is exactly the same situation - I know from experience that the person cutting across is the person found at fault......
Tribal Chestnut said:
I have an '02 bike without this important safety feature. Yes, it's old, but not super old.
Thought that it had been around a lot longer than that but then I'm old. Memory fading ETA I remember now. Always had this feature since I was a dispatch rider in the early 80s. My Z550, CB400N Superdream and my CB250RS all had it. You had to manually switch it on though
Edited by croyde on Thursday 23 October 09:38
I do find some motorcycle antics annoying, but in fairness I also find many car driving antics annoying, too.
My current rant centres on motorcyclists on the North Circular near Ealing riding towards me (i.e. coming from the opposite direction) in my lane as they overtake slow traffic in theirs. What gets me is that I need to sit in the middle of my lane as there's a cycle lane to my left (not on the pavement) which takes up a reasonable portion of my lane space. I'm stuffed whichever way I go.
I'll give way whenever I can as I don't want a collision, but I just think it massively unfair to effectively be squeezed one way and then another on my own bit of road.
My current rant centres on motorcyclists on the North Circular near Ealing riding towards me (i.e. coming from the opposite direction) in my lane as they overtake slow traffic in theirs. What gets me is that I need to sit in the middle of my lane as there's a cycle lane to my left (not on the pavement) which takes up a reasonable portion of my lane space. I'm stuffed whichever way I go.
I'll give way whenever I can as I don't want a collision, but I just think it massively unfair to effectively be squeezed one way and then another on my own bit of road.
phib said:
I may be confusing filtering with undertaking, the two I saw were traveling at c. 50mph when normal traffic doing say 15mph to 20 mph.
If you ask me, and I may be way off, the differentiation is in the speed of the other traffic, rather than the bike, if the traffic is moving at our near the limit and a bike comes hooning through, it's undertaking, if the traffic is slower than the speed limit, even 20 in a 30, it's filtering. Although 50 would be an inappropriate filtering speed, but that's inappropriate filtering rather than undertaking.But when bikes go down the middle of a 70mph DLC when traffic is flowing freely, imho they're being a bit silly. I understand the frustration of being stuck behind day dreamers, but probably squeezing between two of them is asking for trouble.
Fats25 said:
Fastdruid said:
I'm not sure he realised just how close he was to being taken out, about a second later and he'd have been into the side of my car as I changed lanes.
He probably didn't realize. As it probably wasn't as close as you think. Obviously I was not there, but is very rare as a biker that you get these "oh st" moments, 65mph on a bike feels like 15 in a car. If is was not an "oh st" moment from him (and I suspect if it was - you would have seen a swerve from him, and/or a reaction at least) he probably went about his day, without even noticing it as was not as close as you thought it was.
No idea if you ride a bike or not, but after a while of riding, especially in traffic, your perception of what is going on around you becomes owl like. You know everything going on around you at all times. Is a very strange sensation, and difficult to explain to non-bike riders. You cannot appreciate how quick and nimble a bike can be, and what looks like a tight gap to a car driver, has miles of room for a biker.
It works the other way as well, when in the car, and you forget that you are not so nimble and quick, and you find yourself on the wrong side of the road having done an overtake, and realising you cannot get back to your own side of the traffic. That is embarrassing .
To the OP - I guess you have never ridden through London where Bikes share bus lanes, and people need to cut across the bus lanes to take exits? You have to be just as alert there to people cutting across you, as you do not a motorway when filtering. Is exactly the same situation - I know from experience that the person cutting across is the person found at fault......
Where do we draw the line between filtering and undertaking? Yes, there's the highway code definition, but it would appear that some bikers treat that as an advisory. Applying the rules of relative speed is a little daft. If you filter at no more than 20 mph faster than the surrounding traffic, it seems such a low speed, but if the surrounding traffic is doing 50 mph, and you get hit, then you will be hitting the deck at 70 mph. The Force will not be with you then.
As I said, where do we draw the line? Most of us bikers will have seen this video clip, but perhaps not our four wheeled brethren........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XihQeZpwqpE
Yoda or just fking lucky?
scarble said:
If you ask me, and I may be way off, the differentiation is in the speed of the other traffic, rather than the bike, if the traffic is moving at our near the limit and a bike comes hooning through, it's undertaking, if the traffic is slower than the speed limit, even 20 in a 30, it's filtering. Although 50 would be an inappropriate filtering speed, but that's inappropriate filtering rather than undertaking.
But when bikes go down the middle of a 70mph DLC when traffic is flowing freely, imho they're being a bit silly. I understand the frustration of being stuck behind day dreamers, but probably squeezing between two of them is asking for trouble.
Yep! I have been known to do this, not too often as I get older, and I do realise that it would be my own stupid fault if I got clipped.But when bikes go down the middle of a 70mph DLC when traffic is flowing freely, imho they're being a bit silly. I understand the frustration of being stuck behind day dreamers, but probably squeezing between two of them is asking for trouble.
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