RE: Jaguar XKSS continuation - New York 2016
Discussion
I cannot see the problem with doing this. Apart from preserving many mechanical skills, a great lead in for apprentices to a car company and a nice little earner for Jaguar who would not like to buy and drive a modern incarnation of a classic. Like a classic without all the headaches and snobbery.
I can understand why classic car owners would be upset if they were called classic cars because they are essentially new cars.
Perhaps Lord March should embrace it and set aside part of the Revival for new classics instead of staring down his nose.
Unfortunately for Porsche Singer are already doing a better job of restoring and upgrading the 911. However I would like to see try this process wit a 924.
I can understand why classic car owners would be upset if they were called classic cars because they are essentially new cars.
Perhaps Lord March should embrace it and set aside part of the Revival for new classics instead of staring down his nose.
Unfortunately for Porsche Singer are already doing a better job of restoring and upgrading the 911. However I would like to see try this process wit a 924.
Anyone who says having more XKSS's in the world (original, continuations or fakes) is wrong is slightly stupid IMO.
Fabulous looking and sounding things, if this kind of car doesn't get the petrol flowing in your veins why are you on PH's?
Would it be wrong to buy it and pass it off as original and valuable- yes, would it be wrong to buy it and rag it around looking like the coolest thing in the world- Hell No!
Fabulous looking and sounding things, if this kind of car doesn't get the petrol flowing in your veins why are you on PH's?
Would it be wrong to buy it and pass it off as original and valuable- yes, would it be wrong to buy it and rag it around looking like the coolest thing in the world- Hell No!
I think this is awesome. It's fantastic to see Jaguar embracing this. Not only is it a valuable business for them but it has many other benefits.
The prestige value from looking after and investing in the brand and its history, keeping skills alive which would of otherwise been phased out, keeping the supply chains going etc etc.
Keep it up Jaguar! Who wouldn't want to own such a thing. The history argument is irrelevant. No one will be buying these as outright investments (although they probably will keep their worth) but wonderful pieces of engineering.
The prestige value from looking after and investing in the brand and its history, keeping skills alive which would of otherwise been phased out, keeping the supply chains going etc etc.
Keep it up Jaguar! Who wouldn't want to own such a thing. The history argument is irrelevant. No one will be buying these as outright investments (although they probably will keep their worth) but wonderful pieces of engineering.
For the avoidance of doubt; I'm not saying they're not nice cars, I'm not saying they shouldn't build them and I'm not saying it's a bad thing that they are being built. However, giving them the VIN plates from cars that were destroyed many years ago doesn't make them authentic.
As a replica, they're lovely, but they're still a replica. If somebody buys all the parts for, say, a Porsche 917 and builds a car, then puts a VIN from a 917 that was written off while racing does that make it the same car? Clearly not. These and the lightweight Es are lovely cars, but Jaguar are marketing as something they are not and trying to imbue authenticity by ringing plates. If I built one in my workshop at home and decided to give it a VIN from a written off car I'd be prosecuted and rightly so.
As a replica, they're lovely, but they're still a replica. If somebody buys all the parts for, say, a Porsche 917 and builds a car, then puts a VIN from a 917 that was written off while racing does that make it the same car? Clearly not. These and the lightweight Es are lovely cars, but Jaguar are marketing as something they are not and trying to imbue authenticity by ringing plates. If I built one in my workshop at home and decided to give it a VIN from a written off car I'd be prosecuted and rightly so.
BrewsterBear said:
For the avoidance of doubt; I'm not saying they're not nice cars, I'm not saying they shouldn't build them and I'm not saying it's a bad thing that they are being built. However, giving them the VIN plates from cars that were destroyed many years ago doesn't make them authentic.
As a replica, they're lovely, but they're still a replica. If somebody buys all the parts for, say, a Porsche 917 and builds a car, then puts a VIN from a 917 that was written off while racing does that make it the same car? Clearly not. These and the lightweight Es are lovely cars, but Jaguar are marketing as something they are not and trying to imbue authenticity by ringing plates. If I built one in my workshop at home and decided to give it a VIN from a written off car I'd be prosecuted and rightly so.
Are Jaguar marketing them as originals? I thought it was clear to all that they are continuations ie new cars with old VINs. No one is being hoodwinked. Whether they are worth a £1 million is the big question. As a £1 million buys an amazing Eagle E Type and a Singer too I'm not sure. But I suppose there are enough people with enough money that the price is not that important.As a replica, they're lovely, but they're still a replica. If somebody buys all the parts for, say, a Porsche 917 and builds a car, then puts a VIN from a 917 that was written off while racing does that make it the same car? Clearly not. These and the lightweight Es are lovely cars, but Jaguar are marketing as something they are not and trying to imbue authenticity by ringing plates. If I built one in my workshop at home and decided to give it a VIN from a written off car I'd be prosecuted and rightly so.
To my eyes these are far far more deserving of my sadly none-existent wonga to pay for one of these than the lightweight e-types.
A someone who has loved these things for years, I'm glad Jaguar is doing this...
Maybe, just maybe the owner of one of these beautifulworks of art cars will drive the things to be seen, rather than shut them in some air conditioned hi-tech hi-secured shed never to see the light of day.
[Russell Brand]The swines![/Russell Brand]
A someone who has loved these things for years, I'm glad Jaguar is doing this...
Maybe, just maybe the owner of one of these beautiful
[Russell Brand]The swines![/Russell Brand]
BrewsterBear said:
Jaguar are marketing as something they are not and trying to imbue authenticity by ringing plates. If I built one in my workshop at home and decided to give it a VIN from a written off car I'd be prosecuted and rightly so.
Yes, you would rightly be prosecuted because you're not the original manufacturer and you have no right to allocate a Jaguar VIN to a car. Jaguar, by definition, does have that right. You're pointlessly blurring the issue by trying to make it sound as if Jag are saying these are literally 60 year old cars. But they're not saying anything of the sort. It is abundantly clear from what Jaguar is saying through official channels that these are newly constructed from new materials. No-one is being deceived in any way so your accusations are empty and use of the term "ringing" is, frankly, defamatory.
Lowtimer said:
No-one is being deceived in any way so your accusations are empty and use of the term "ringing" is, frankly, defamatory.
Car A is written off in a fire 60 years ago. Car B is built 60 years later with similar components manufactured in the 21st century. Car B is given the VIN of car A. This is ringing. These are the facts. It is only defamatory if it is not true.You seem to think that because a company called Jaguar, which has since been through American ownership and is now in the hands of Indian ownership, are building these this makes it OK. I think it is not OK. We shall agree to differ. What I imagine we both agree upon is that they're lovely cars. I simply think it's a shame to make them ringers when they could be fine cars in their own right.
I'd love a Singer, but they don't stamp VIN plates from long written off cars to try to make them something they are not.
B2UFO said:
This is great what Jaguar is doing. Hope they rebuild the XJ220 with the original V12 also.
I hope not, because it'd be a shame to have to re-engineer the whole car from scratch again and spoil the styling.The switch from V12 to V6 meant shortening the whole car significantly, as well as dropping 250kg from the kerb weight. I wouldn't want to add either of those things again just to rebuild a concept car.
Jesus, PH has become a sad place. It's a beautiful british built car and people are moaning about it. Who cares about provenance - it's worth what people will pay for it.
For some I would imagine it's a far more attractive proposition than an original car as it will probably be a lot better bolted together and stop and go better too.
For some I would imagine it's a far more attractive proposition than an original car as it will probably be a lot better bolted together and stop and go better too.
MyCC said:
The irony being that the original cars will have no doubt been comprehensively rebuilt at some point. But alas these 'new' cars will be less valuable than the original originals simply because they will lack any history.
Regards,
MyCC.
The 9 remaining original unsold cars were completely destroyed (some say conveniently, as Jaguar were making a loss on them). There are photographs of the cars outside the Browns Lane plant after the fire, and the only way to tell they are D/XKSS's is the W shaped subframes. All the Alumium/Mag alloy bits melted. I'm sure Nigel Thorley included the pics in his 'Jaguar XJ - The complete car' book. Regards,
MyCC.
The charge of ringing has been brought against Jaguar. I thought I would check the definition of the word in my Oxford Dictionary of English.
"Ringer (noun), 1 (informal)
"fraud (noun)
"Ringer (noun), 1 (informal)
- an athlete or horse fradulently substituted for another in a competition or event
- a motor vehicle whose identity has been fraudulently changed by the substitution of a different registration plate
- a highly proficient person brought in to supplement a team or group"
"fraud (noun)
- wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain
- person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities"
I believe that Lord March and the owners of the original E Types were concerned that the 'new' cars would render the originals uncompetitive - quite the opposite is actually the case if you think about it. The originals have been subject to 60 years of 'development' whereas the new ones are to original factory spec - putting them, at best, in the middle of the grid. Remember, the only reason that the production of the lightweight E type halted was that they were totally uncompetitive! The new cars will be more 'original' than the original cars - ironic really!!
I can't wait for someone to build the "missing Austin Rovers" which were sadly lost due to the endless industrial disputes which forever halted work at the factories.
"Red Robbo" editions of the Metro or Marina perhaps
Mind you, replicating the quality of design and manufacturing of those cars will be trickier than just making a new E Type. Plastics that awful, fit that bad, reliability so poor they need rebuilding within weeks of delivery - that will take some time to sort out
Still, the Chinese own the name now I guess - they'll crack that no probs ;0
"Red Robbo" editions of the Metro or Marina perhaps
Mind you, replicating the quality of design and manufacturing of those cars will be trickier than just making a new E Type. Plastics that awful, fit that bad, reliability so poor they need rebuilding within weeks of delivery - that will take some time to sort out
Still, the Chinese own the name now I guess - they'll crack that no probs ;0
oldtimer2 said:
The charge of ringing has been brought against Jaguar. I thought I would check the definition of the word in my Oxford Dictionary of English.
"Ringer (noun), 1 (informal)
"fraud (noun)
Firstly, anyone resorting to dictionary definitions when arguing on the Internet is ALWAYS wrong - even if they're right - it's one of those fallacies ;0"Ringer (noun), 1 (informal)
- an athlete or horse fradulently substituted for another in a competition or event
- a motor vehicle whose identity has been fraudulently changed by the substitution of a different registration plate
- a highly proficient person brought in to supplement a team or group"
"fraud (noun)
- wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain
- person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities"
Secondly, "ringing" is generally used for the act of making a car appear to be a different car - changing it's identity, usually to raise it's value. The fact that these XKSS's once existed, were destroyed and now new cars are being made to 'appear to be those cars' (which they're clearly not) isn't so far from that as to be completely wrong and there's zero doubt that the whole story behind them is intended to raise their value?
The issue here is that perjorative terms tend only to be applied to people of lower standing in the world - someone making "cheap knock-off" copies is a forger, someone making "$1m replicas" is an entrepreneur/craftsman ;0
FWIW I think Lord March is right in saying they have no history, however I think he's wrong in not allowing them to compete at Goodwood.
Everyone accepts that most historic race cars are a triggers broom to a greater or lesser extent, but it's the specific history attached to each individual car that give them their value, the clue is in the word historic!
Being built by Jaguar themselves, these recreations certainly have a better provenance than a car built by anyone else, and indeed the controversial inception kicks off their own individual, interesting history, but that history doesn't include the stories of decades of different world famous drivers sat in them, top teams running them, and door to door battles with other similar cars that constitute their legend. Even the parts replaced and rebuilt over the years that some consider to dilute provenance form part of it IMHO.
That all said I've heard of wealthy individuals owning an original historic racer but commissioning an identical replica and using the original car's papers to race, indeed it's common for owners to have identical body parts and even engines created to ensure that the originality of the car is preserved as best as possible. How it is any different to what Jaguar are doing?
The question is, when you go to Goodwood are you going to watch history being revived and value the link to it provided by the history of the cars competing, or are you going to watch some beautiful old designs racing door to door with today's top drivers on a classic track? Either way what you're actually seeing is already a mixture of the two, which is why I think the snobbery surrounding these cars is daft.
Everyone accepts that most historic race cars are a triggers broom to a greater or lesser extent, but it's the specific history attached to each individual car that give them their value, the clue is in the word historic!
Being built by Jaguar themselves, these recreations certainly have a better provenance than a car built by anyone else, and indeed the controversial inception kicks off their own individual, interesting history, but that history doesn't include the stories of decades of different world famous drivers sat in them, top teams running them, and door to door battles with other similar cars that constitute their legend. Even the parts replaced and rebuilt over the years that some consider to dilute provenance form part of it IMHO.
That all said I've heard of wealthy individuals owning an original historic racer but commissioning an identical replica and using the original car's papers to race, indeed it's common for owners to have identical body parts and even engines created to ensure that the originality of the car is preserved as best as possible. How it is any different to what Jaguar are doing?
The question is, when you go to Goodwood are you going to watch history being revived and value the link to it provided by the history of the cars competing, or are you going to watch some beautiful old designs racing door to door with today's top drivers on a classic track? Either way what you're actually seeing is already a mixture of the two, which is why I think the snobbery surrounding these cars is daft.
BrewsterBear said:
You seem to think that because a company called Jaguar, which has since been through American ownership and is now in the hands of Indian ownership, are building these this makes it OK.
You seem to think that because a company called Jaguar, which has since been through American ownership and is now in the hands of Indian ownership, are building these this makes it OK. I think it is not OK.
You're apparently making up law according to your particular sentiments. The company we call Jaguar has been the same legal entity ever since it was founded as Swallow Sidecars. It has continuity of ownership of its intellectual property and designs. The fact that it has changed owners several times in no way diminishes its continuous history as a legal entity. If Jaguar assigns a given chassis number to a given vehicle then by definition that chassis number is accurate. Jaguar is the sole definitive source of Jaguar chassis numbers.You seem to think that because a company called Jaguar, which has since been through American ownership and is now in the hands of Indian ownership, are building these this makes it OK. I think it is not OK.
If you seriously think Jaguar intends to defraud the public into believing the car is 60 years old rather than newly produced then you are deluding yourself. If you don't think that then you have no cause for complaint.
Lowtimer said:
If you seriously think Jaguar intends to defraud the public into believing the car is 60 years old rather than newly produced then you are deluding yourself. If you don't think that then you have no cause for complaint.
I have already replied to your points, but let me try one last time and state it as clearly as possible. Jaguar issued these VINs to cars that existed. Those cars were destroyed. It is my belief that those VINs were destroyed with the cars and as such should not be reused. Anybody else found reusing a VIN on an entirely different car is breaking the law and this practice is colloquially known as "ringing."It would appear you believe that Jaguar has the right to re-use those VINs because they want to add historical substance to the (admirable) technical and profitable exercise they are running of building brand new cars that are very similar to old cars they used to make. I disagree.
These are lovely looking things and I have no doubt they will be immaculate replicas, but they aren't and never will be the cars that those VINs belong to.
A VIN is a single car's DNA. It is the very stuff of that car. You can't give it away, trade it, swap it, replicate it. The chassis number *is* the car. If Jaguar were not trying to sell these cars as the originals then they would issue new VINs. They are not; they are re-using VINs from cars that once existed and were then destroyed.
I can't state it any more simply than that. If you cannot grasp that this is fraud, however tasteful you may find it, then I can't help you any further.
BrewsterBear said:
I don't think disliking ringers is elitist. Lets imagine my old 911 was a total loss in a fire. I can buy almost every part brand new from Porsche. So I buy an entire new shell, engine, gearbox, etc and build a car as perfect in every way as it left the factory 35 years ago, possibly better. Does that make it OK to slap the same VIN on as the one that burnt?
It doesn't matter whether it's Joe Bloggs' under the arches or the company that call themselves Jaguar these days. It's ringing, plain and simple.
But that wasn't what happened with the lightweight e types though.It doesn't matter whether it's Joe Bloggs' under the arches or the company that call themselves Jaguar these days. It's ringing, plain and simple.
They were allocated but unused chassis numbers. The cars were built by Jaguar to the original designs. I udnerstand they are new cars and not historic, but I can't understand how they aren't 'genuine' E types.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff